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Wam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:10 pm

bessie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:26 am

somitomi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:55 pm Wam is V/LA until Tuesday lunchtime

@mods is this lunchtime Wam time or Osie time?

Lunch wam time. Have 5 minutes now though.

unvote

Vote morgan


Seven did my homework for me.

lol

I gave you a dayvig.

How about you do your own thinking, please.

Like honestly, Wam, you are incredibly underwhelming. Half of the phase V/LA, and you come in with that? Do better, please.

Or die. My goal was to get a better read on you, but if this is how it's gonna be, I'd rather kill you.

MathBlade wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:03 pm

moody7277 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:25 pm

Seven wrote:@moody why did you vote Jedi after his claim instead of sabrar?

I was still reading Jedi as scummy, and the hypothesis that the increase in needed votes for majority elim being solely down to him had not convinced me yet. Plus I'm used to Sabrar being devious enough not to get elimmed as scum D1, that was a real shocker.

Madge wrote:This morgan/moody thing seems sudden but I'm watching.

IIRC Morgan has been the counterwagon to MathBlade all D2, it's just that the worst and wam brought him up to threshold all of a sudden. As for the thing with me, I think it is mostly that I have been on the wrong wagons. The base of it is of course a tale not quite as old as time. Zathras does not mind, has even grown to like it.

Incorrect. Seven was the elim then Seven started to town it up so Morgan is a great elim.

Morgan’s responses re Sabrar are just bad.
A>> You can scream at Sabrar to claim something but ultimately you can’t log into their account and post for them.
B>> If you’re doubly capable of killing a player why such a hard push on me? Why not just kill me? My guess is because you’re behind you can’t do that.
C>> You and Jedi are voting me without addressing my alignment in relation to TW and events that happened today. I think you know the position is untenable. If you genuinely think I am scum then you should be able to explain likely theories.

Eg >> You’re suspicious of the worst but their role…
This is IIOA and bad at that. If you’re suspicious of the worst but their role…this means you have to explain why the worst confirms I blocked him as scum. This is such a cop out you’re not doing this. Your reasoning for not Ducky is based on something unproven and your scumread on me is in despite of something proven. You’re not actually doing a mechanics based game.

The only person I agree with in your list as a good elim today is Suzaku. But that’s because they haven’t provided content.

You're assuming things about my role.

What is there to analyze? You blocked him, he confirmed he was blocked. Therefore, you are both most likely to be town? I have to agree with that logic or I'm scum? I'll pass.

I'm not really a mechanics player. I'm not an anything player. I point out things that catch my interest and skim or ignore most other stuff. It's not optimal, but it's the only way I'll make time for this game and I think across all of my games I have an even mix of good and bad play.

If I were to assume a world where you and the worst are both town, I'd just want to kill Suzaku even deader. I'd maybe reconsider WMU - I don't know her scumplay, but she's fairly obvious town when she gets a good groove going and I felt a glimmer of it at deadline on Day 1 but nothing since. Wam and moody also become options, with madge as a last resort. So there's a sort of spectrum of my reads in that world.

Pretty much yes.

You either have to agree with it or explain the flaw. “I’ll pass” is not only disrespectful it hurts your case.

Start with me scum (incorrectly) then okay, why do I counter claim Seven? You’re not answering this after being asked several times. “I’ll pass” is just a blatant refusal because you can’t and want me dead. Seven woke up and saw it and the fact you won’t even try to dissect what I said is telling. Same with Jedi.

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:56 pm If I were to assume a world where you and the worst are both town, I'd just want to kill Suzaku even deader. I'd maybe reconsider WMU - I don't know her scumplay, but she's fairly obvious town when she gets a good groove going and I felt a glimmer of it at deadline on Day 1 but nothing since. Wam and moody also become options, with madge as a last resort. So there's a sort of spectrum of my reads in that world.

The only player I would consider in that list is Suzaku.

Suzaku being quiet after early susses and then I come up despite many people being inactive makes the most sense.

MathBlade wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:58 pm Pretty much yes.

You either have to agree with it or explain the flaw. “I’ll pass” is not only disrespectful it hurts your case.

Start with me scum (incorrectly) then okay, why do I counter claim Seven? You’re not answering this after being asked several times. “I’ll pass” is just a blatant refusal because you can’t and want me dead. Seven woke up and saw it and the fact you won’t even try to dissect what I said is telling. Same with Jedi.

It's only telling for me as a person, not my alignment.

I have no way of knowing why you did what you did. I can play out all the scenarios I want, and you can tell me until you're blue in the face, but that only works if I already townread you. You already laid out exactly what you want me to think, which makes me feel like I'm being manipulated, so. I'll pass.

Look, I'll even play along. Your post is broken up and italicized/bolded.

About me being “easy” that’s been the mindset. The only case was “I wasn’t here”. I was working. Initial suggestions are very difficult to overcome so poisoning the well is bad. My defense should be clear and I shouldn’t need one.

I never attacked you for your activity.

Take me and the worst for example: one of four alignments
SvS >> While this is possible to an outsider’s perspective, me claiming to have blocked the worst then one of the worst and myself not dying is suspicious. This is not a good strategic play if I or the worst are scum as we open ourselves to lots of ways things go wrong.

This is wine. "While this is possible to an outsider's perspective" is *literally* lending credence to my belief that you could be mafia, while you're also telling me I'm bad for thinking you're mafia. And what do you mean not dying? Not dying when? In the Night? Or by elimination? Unclear.

SvT >> Again this is possible to an outsider’s perspective but then why do I as scum true claim when I could just sheep Seven and take the elim on Wisp. The worst confirmed he was blocked and him being town means he was blocked so that means true claim.

Again, you yourself state it's possible for mafia to be between you two to an outsider (like me!). This is more wine, not facts.

TvS >> Possible that the worst is a strongman here and killed Wisp or just scum who got blocked but considering how Seven recanted their “implied” claim (benefit of the doubt) means that they know at least one of us is truthtelling and so continuing on is dumb, and that’s looking at Seven in the best light possible.

Okay.

TvT >> This is clearly the most likely answer as the others require a lot of weird stretching and flexing to make work. I may be an idiot but I am more than likely a town idiot which makes me hella sus of Morgan because he knows better.

*Clearly*. /rolls eyes

I'm skipping to the second Seven scenario, because he has since rescinded his claim.

>> Seven is lying about the worst visiting Wisp, worst is telling the truth about being blocked and I am telling the truth about blocking him. Now again you can argue that a buddy blocked Seven which is still logically possible but not at all likely because if I was ever rolecopped the gig would be up. So it’s more likely that I am truth claiming there.

"More likely" doesn't mean "what actually happened."

Seven said this is a good post. I think it's 99% wine and completely unhelpful, at least to me. Zero animocity, zero sarcasm, I'm not trying to bury you just because. So what now?

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:31 pm

MathBlade wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:58 pm Pretty much yes.

You either have to agree with it or explain the flaw. “I’ll pass” is not only disrespectful it hurts your case.

Start with me scum (incorrectly) then okay, why do I counter claim Seven? You’re not answering this after being asked several times. “I’ll pass” is just a blatant refusal because you can’t and want me dead. Seven woke up and saw it and the fact you won’t even try to dissect what I said is telling. Same with Jedi.

It's only telling for me as a person, not my alignment.

I have no way of knowing why you did what you did. I can play out all the scenarios I want, and you can tell me until you're blue in the face, but that only works if I already townread you. You already laid out exactly what you want me to think, which makes me feel like I'm being manipulated, so. I'll pass.

Like no it doesn’t? You can presupposition me scum and if you can reach a logical conclusion or a logical way for me as scum to do what I did, share it and your vote is good. If not, your vote is bad. I haven’t laid out what I want you to think. That’s not how I roll. I have laid out a convincing argument why I am town (as I am).

It’s the same with any other argument. Just saying you’ll pass and vote me based on fear of my scum game, I was AfK, and “feeling” is just you either being a stubborn player or you scum and at this point I lean the latter.

Historically, you are a pain in the butt to discuss the topic of your own alignment with, so if it's all the same to you, either talk to me about something else or move on and let others talk about their read on you.

MathBlade wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:41 pmJust saying you’ll pass and vote me based on fear of my scum game, I was AfK, and “feeling” is just you either being a stubborn player or you scum and at this point I lean the latter.

This is a lie. Three lies, actually. One, two, three.

Anyway.

Responses underlined

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:39 pm Look, I'll even play along. Your post is broken up and italicized/bolded.

About me being “easy” that’s been the mindset. The only case was “I wasn’t here”. I was working. Initial suggestions are very difficult to overcome so poisoning the well is bad. My defense should be clear and I shouldn’t need one.

I never attacked you for your activity.
Yes you did. You attacked me for being on Jedi and not on Sabrar and you’ll notice I wasn’t online at all or very minimally. But you don’t seem to care about facts.

Take me and the worst for example: one of four alignments
SvS >> While this is possible to an outsider’s perspective, me claiming to have blocked the worst then one of the worst and myself not dying is suspicious. This is not a good strategic play if I or the worst are scum as we open ourselves to lots of ways things go wrong.

This is wine. "While this is possible to an outsider's perspective" is *literally* lending credence to my belief that you could be mafia, while you're also telling me I'm bad for thinking you're mafia. And what do you mean not dying? Not dying when? In the Night? Or by elimination? Unclear.

Again you’re ignoring what’s written and attacking a minutia. Not good strategic play. Assume me and worst scum together we open ourselves up to a lot that goes wrong. Why the counter claim? Why claim here?

SvT >> Again this is possible to an outsider’s perspective but then why do I as scum true claim when I could just sheep Seven and take the elim on Wisp. The worst confirmed he was blocked and him being town means he was blocked so that means true claim.

Again, you yourself state it's possible for mafia to be between you two to an outsider (like me!). This is more wine, not facts.

Again I state yes possible but then ask the why. The why you never address.

TvS >> Possible that the worst is a strongman here and killed Wisp or just scum who got blocked but considering how Seven recanted their “implied” claim (benefit of the doubt) means that they know at least one of us is truthtelling and so continuing on is dumb, and that’s looking at Seven in the best light possible.

Okay.

TvT >> This is clearly the most likely answer as the others require a lot of weird stretching and flexing to make work. I may be an idiot but I am more than likely a town idiot which makes me hella sus of Morgan because he knows better.

*Clearly*. /rolls eyes

I'm skipping to the second Seven scenario, because he has since rescinded his claim.

You’re not addressing what’s here you’re just using sarcasm as a deflection mechanism

>> Seven is lying about the worst visiting Wisp, worst is telling the truth about being blocked and I am telling the truth about blocking him. Now again you can argue that a buddy blocked Seven which is still logically possible but not at all likely because if I was ever rolecopped the gig would be up. So it’s more likely that I am truth claiming there.

"More likely" doesn't mean "what actually happened."

Seven said this is a good post. I think it's 99% wine and completely unhelpful, at least to me. Zero animocity, zero sarcasm, I'm not trying to bury you just because. So what now?

Town deals in what’s probable. Scum deals in what is possible. It’s why we have rules for what to do on cop claims or tracker claims etc. Then it’s up to those in the awkward position to make themselves more likely to be town like Seven did. That’s how this works. By actively not trying to convince people I am scum and the premise I am scum is inherently flawed very few if any town will sheep you and it will just be opportunistic scum. You’re not even making an effort to communicate why I am scum.

Okay, I'm going to ignore MathBlade on the subject of MathBlade and try to lay out my thoughts on him, crystal clear, for everyone else. Standby.

Oh hey Math while you're here, go ahead and pick an avatar.

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:44 pm Historically, you are a pain in the butt to discuss the topic of your own alignment with, so if it's all the same to you, either talk to me about something else or move on and let others talk about their read on you.

It’s a pain because you refuse to do it because you can’t.

Regarding my avatar, I will when not on my phone.

Your reads are garbage. You’re not hunting on the Sabrar wagon for if someone bussed because you’re the likely busser.

Your not pushing Suzaku because they’re your buddy.
You know Ducky won’t go anywhere so you won’t push there
You are gasping at moody and not suspicious of no one talking Moody despite in your PoE.

Like this is just painful.

If you think I am scum hunt my partner
Because your vote does nothing here.

Okay, so initially I was suspicious of Math near the end of Day 1 solely because he felt kind of lifeless and uh, boring. I don't know his current scumplay but figured it's worth a poke or two.

And really there's only two things that really unsettle me about this slot.

First is that this jumped out at me after Sabrar flipped--

Morgan wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:27 am

MathBlade wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:58 am

Wisp wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:52 pm There is 0 need to try to think of teams at this point, but I do agree with the thoughts on Suzaku, but I want them to clarify their playstyle first. I have other problems with that post, other than it just being a useless recap, that does very little for the game state.

I very rarely see town bother trying to talk about everyone has early as 24 hours, but I don't know how a week day length could change that, nor how Suzaku typically plays. It still pings me none the less.

Why exactly do you think we are wolf/wolf?

It’s a common wolf thing to do. Put a bunch of content about a buddy but not enough to accentuate a push. Town players tend to either town hunt or scum hunt and their votes tend to follow that same vibe. Here Suzaku spends most of his effort on you yet doesn’t come up with a read or follow up to you. So it seems performative in a way that is typically svs

This is literally what Sabrar did, if you can even call a one-time softer-than-melted-ice-cream scumread content.

Sorry for the spam I'm done now/for the time being. I don't have time to reread everyone but I had to check if Sabrar actually pushed MathBlade and fell down a small rabbit hole.

In addition to Math trying to clear himself for how much Sabrar pushed on him, which...never happened.

Sabrar made one somewhat detailed scumread on Math and then literally never did anything about it--

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:21 pm MathBlade: I like his push on Suzaku even if I think the premise was false. I don't like this post:

MathBlade wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:44 am Hmmm I don’t like the Bessie wagon given it seems to rely on Suzaku scum and Suzaku isn’t flipped so we don’t know if the premise is true.

1. I didn't get the impression that the wagon on bessie relied on scum!Suzaku
2. But if it really did then he should be comfortable with the wagon given that he is voting Suzaku already so from his pov the premise is likely to be true.
This overall feels like backtracking to me. If MathBlade ever flips scum we should take a closer look at bessie because this could be an early defense of a scummate.
I don't like the 'thought experiment'. If you felt the need to correct yourself about noone voting Suzaku, why did you leave in the hyperbole of everyone townreading you?
These items ping me to a degree where I have a scum-lean on MathBlade.

And this is the second thing that I only recently caught--

MathBlade wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:14 pm

Wam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:58 pm@morgan why?

Because anyone who knows me knows I am a hyperposter. I have not done so because of the holidays. Btw ducks weren’t quacking last night if you get my drift. Little time to post.

MathBlade wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:15 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:09 pm the worst visited wisp btw

Not possible unless strongman I blocked the worst.

Based on my ~outsider's perspective~, this looks like Math claimed the block on the worst *before* he read Seven's claim. I can't think of why someone would immediately announce a roleblock if it didn't produce any sort of visible result. There was a nightkill, so why did Math feel the need to claim? If he was counterclaiming Seven, why didn't he say so in the first post?

And Math continuously accusing me of attacking him for his activity is also self-conscious on his part. I have done no such thing, and I make a point of never doing it because I know business happens. What I will attack is the *quality* of the posts they are able to make with the time afforded to them.

-

That's it, really. People with actual townreads on MathBlade, let's talk about it.

Wam has a dayvig, and you guys need to pressure that slot more. I gave Wam a pass for stopping the Jedi elim, but I need a bit more to work with here.

Same with WMU. I want to see signs of life plz.

Oh, and the whole "if bessie doesn't hammer Jedi I will consider it a scumclaim" from Math seemed way over the top, and clears Jedi if Math is indeed mafia.

MathBlade wrote: ↑Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:42 am Last post for me for the 24 hours. I think this dynamic is good. I think there’s one scum in Madge/Seven leaning Seven here.

Depending upon what happens in the next 24 will vote accordingly so Worst can sheep.

the bolded
Why? Can you quote what gives you this impression?

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:26 pm

Wam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:10 pm

bessie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:26 am
@mods is this lunchtime Wam time or Osie time?

Lunch wam time. Have 5 minutes now though.

unvote

Vote morgan


Seven did my homework for me.

lol

I gave you a dayvig.

How about you do your own thinking, please.

Why did you give Wam a day vig?

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 am I’ll claim tomorrow if people still have an issue with me, but

1) I would not have let Sabrar die the way he did without claiming
2) I am doubly capable of killing a player, both ways indirectly.

I will vote off Math, moody, or Suzaku. I’m suspicious of the worst but I think I know their role so I’ll leave it alone for one phase.

I don't think I understand, i remember someone asked Sabrar for his claim but didn't receive an answer.
The CFD was very close to Eod, so how could we make him claim of he didn't answer at that post?
About the worst, is the role clearing him?

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:39 pm

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:26 pm

Wam wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:10 pm

Lunch wam time. Have 5 minutes now though.

unvote

Vote morgan


Seven did my homework for me.

lol

I gave you a dayvig.

How about you do your own thinking, please.

Why did you give Wam a day vig?

Light townread, wanted to see some more activity/pressure on the slot to be sure.

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:44 pm

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 am I’ll claim tomorrow if people still have an issue with me, but

1) I would not have let Sabrar die the way he did without claiming
2) I am doubly capable of killing a player, both ways indirectly.

I will vote off Math, moody, or Suzaku. I’m suspicious of the worst but I think I know their role so I’ll leave it alone for one phase.

I don't think I understand, i remember someone asked Sabrar for his claim but didn't receive an answer.
The CFD was very close to Eod, so how could we make him claim of he didn't answer at that post?
About the worst, is the role clearing him?

He did answer:

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:41 pm FTR I'm not going to claim my role.

the worst isn't clear but he's promising an alignment check on Jedi.

Votecount

Votee (Votes/Elimination) - Voter(s)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Morgan (3/6) - MathBlade, the worst, Wam
MathBlade (3/6) - moody7277, Morgan, SuperJedi224
moody7277 (1/6) - Seven

Not Voting (4): bessie, madge, Märklin, xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx

Day 2 Elimination Deadline will be 10 AM PST on December 2nd.

Reminder that it takes 4 votes to eliminate by plurality and 6 to eliminate by majority.

AC 2.3

bessie - 4
moody7277 - 4
Morgan - 25
MathBlade - 5
SuperJedi224 - 4
the worst - 8
Seven - 14
madge - 5
xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx - 1
Wam - 1
Suzaku - 0

Third Cutoff

Wam is V/LA until Tuesday midday GMT.
Morgan has been prodded for going over the post max.
Märklin replaces Suzaku, effective as soon as their account is approved.
Do not discuss circumstances surrounding replacements.

Welcome, Märklin.

MathBlade wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:04 pm

the worst wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:56 am sorry:
vote: Morgan
hadn't caught up.

I'm interested in voting moody

Bad vote imho. Moody is a lot Townie than most of the game.

I can see it kinda? I don't feel confident on Moody but I suddenly strongly feel that Seven is town and want to see how that adventure goes.

Can you throw me a tl;dr on town!Moody? I think the best argument ive seen is that Moody sheeped onto a scum wagon yesterday and like. You and I both know how effective bussing can be so .

Daily catch-up post.

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:49 am I don't think I read that post, rip. My bad!

Like really? I mean, it was not only in response to you, it was my entire thought process on SuperJedi’s alignment. I even quoted myself here.

Seven wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:03 am End of Day Wagon Analysis

Impressive! Are you sure about Wam? I wasn’t there so I don’t have the feel of the end-of-day pacing, but with so many others appearing to want to stay on SuperJedi, do you not think it could have been an attempt to distance?

MathBlade wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:02 am I will respond to the rest later, but a couple things I want to point out. TvT is more likely to TvS because scum!Ducky I don’t think confirms that I blocked him and announces a future result on Jedi. I agree Ducky isn’t locktown but it’s just a lot less probable he is scum. I think I put that up there. It’s a I know Ducky thing. If Ducky is scum, he either has to give a result on Jedi or kill Jedi which I am not worried about because either we get a scum or narrow PoE.

I don’t agree with your reasoning for finding The Worst town. The Worst claiming a power is totally NAI (to me personally, I am suspicious of such claims but I’m trying to look at this objectively). As I’m sure you know from your mafia experience, players that make unprompted claims tend to be seen as townie. Also it is totally safe for him to claim a power, as powers in this setup are likely NAI, and it is doubly safe, if he is mafia, to claim alignment cop because if he is mafia he knows SuperJedi is or is not mafia, and if SuperJedi is indie he’s not going to volunteer that information should he be cleared as town.

Re the rest of your post, I am usually suspicious of LAMIST-type posts.

the worst wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:54 am exCUSE me how dare you accuse someone other than me of making no sense

I can’t help liking the worst.

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 am I’ll claim tomorrow if people still have an issue with me, but

1) I would not have let Sabrar die the way he did without claiming
2) I am doubly capable of killing a player, both ways indirectly.

I will vote off Math, moody, or Suzaku. I’m suspicious of the worst but I think I know their role so I’ll leave it alone for one phase.

Hmmm, a “would I do this as scum” post.

SuperJedi224 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:38 pm vote mathblade

Your reasons?

moody7277 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:25 pm

Seven wrote:@moody why did you vote Jedi after his claim instead of sabrar?

I was still reading Jedi as scummy, and the hypothesis that the increase in needed votes for majority elim being solely down to him had not convinced me yet. Plus I'm used to Sabrar being devious enough not to get elimmed as scum D1, that was a real shocker.

What was a shocker? His elimination, or his flip?

Morgan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:29 pm Like honestly, Wam, you are incredibly underwhelming. Half of the phase V/LA, and you come in with that? Do better, please.

He’s V/LA until lunchtime Wam time, which is approximately 9 hours from the time of this post.


Welcome Marklin and thank you for replacing! If you’re interested in the forum meta, you can find a brief history of how we got here in my opening post.

Bessie, you still owe us that woof-grr list.

I like reading your thoughts but I don't like how you don't seem to make conclusions. This is NAI for you but it's frustrating now I'm trying to sheep you and wisp...


-----------------
Madge's Notepad
-----------------

BESSIE'S READS SO FAR TODAY:
Morgan scummy
Seven not scummy
(no reads for a while but I'm keeping eye out)

WISP'S READS FROM YESTERDAY:
Wants to kill Jedi (seems to want town to vig)
Last will was that they think wake/morgan/bessie/seven contains at most 1 scum
Previously had a scumread on moody that they kind of abandoned

CLAIM RELATED NOTES:
the worst visited wisp (claimed by Seven, recanted)
mathblade blocked the worst (claimed by mathblade, confirmed by the worst)
the worst doesn't have a targeting role (claimed by the worst)