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AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:01 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:37 am btw Adum have you read Worm? Seems like it would be up your alley.

I'm procrastinating hard. Have assignment due by midnight

Mind DMing me instead so this doesn't become game relevant and therefore we can't talk about media til game ends? Plus, distraction in a game that's already pretty fast.

Ok after game. I try to avoid dms with people in-game while ongoing even if not game relevant. me and my bestie bessies chat always silent while mafia going. so all my conversation energy tends to be directed to the thread

AdumbroDeus wrote:Also I'd like you to respond to the Somi post I'm quoting:

somitomi wrote:

somitomi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:01 pm Bessie didn't vote me in Sorcerer's though, so if anything, that game is proof that she was willing to give me that sort of leeway even when I was actual suspicious scum.

@Seven: what do you think of this?

I answered it indirectly in the post where I consolidated the counterarguments.

-The argument is not that bessie wouldn't resist voting somi. bessie would indeed resist voting somi if she is town.
-The argument is that bessie would not claim there is a near zero percent chance that she would vote somi
-It's the severity/degree of her statement that I'm scumreading her for. Town bessie would try to work around a potential scum read of somi, but if she was left with no other leads as strong enough alternatives to a scum read of somi, she would vote him for the sake of her wincon
-This is critically exemplified in that Newbie New Year Game I quoted. In that game, town-bessie was tunneled on town-somi, but also found mafia-peaceful whale (newbie) highly suspicious (as did the rest of the thread). Somi ended up claiming a PR so bessie had to abandon her tunnel on him and look for someone else to vote. As much as she wanted to avoid voting out a newbie Peaceful Whale that day, she was still willing to do it because we are playing mafia.

System.out.print.ln("

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:42 pm

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:01 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:37 am btw Adum have you read Worm? Seems like it would be up your alley.

I'm procrastinating hard. Have assignment due by midnight

Mind DMing me instead so this doesn't become game relevant and therefore we can't talk about media til game ends? Plus, distraction in a game that's already pretty fast.

Ok after game. I try to avoid dms with people in-game while ongoing even if not game relevant. me and my bestie bessies chat always silent while mafia going. so all my conversation energy tends to be directed to the thread

Fair.

AdumbroDeus wrote:Also I'd like you to respond to the Somi post I'm quoting:

somitomi wrote:
@Seven: what do you think of this?

I answered it indirectly in the post where I consolidated the counterarguments.

-The argument is not that bessie wouldn't resist voting somi. bessie would indeed resist voting somi if she is town.
-The argument is that bessie would not claim there is a near zero percent chance that she would vote somi
-It's the severity/degree of her statement that I'm scumreading her for. Town bessie would try to work around a potential scum read of somi, but if she was left with no other leads as strong enough alternatives to a scum read of somi, she would vote him for the sake of her wincon
-This is critically exemplified in that Newbie New Year Game I quoted. In that game, town-bessie was tunneled on town-somi, but also found mafia-peaceful whale (newbie) highly suspicious (as did the rest of the thread). Somi ended up claiming a PR so bessie had to abandon her tunnel on him and look for someone else to vote. As much as she wanted to avoid voting out a newbie Peaceful Whale that day, she was still willing to do it because we are playing mafia.

I think Somi specifically wants your reaction to the fact that Bessie's vote never went onto Somi in Sorc's even though they had legitimate suspicions (and were proven right).

");

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BF was online around the end of my little early morning burst of activity, I was really hoping they'd explain their thought process then.

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Right, the key point is that she had an alternative. As she mentioned, there's more than 1 scum on day 1 and she was suss of whoever she was voting at the time.

Woof good morning! Picking up approximately where I left off.

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:27 am

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:11 am @anyone can feel free to do it too, give comparably fast moving games where Bessie wasn't in a hydra so I can compare her play to them.
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The only ones I can think of are in the difficult-to-read archive versions that we have that I linked. Crossover mafia would be the go-to. A game that also highlights the insanity that is BoomFrog.

If you attempt to read this game, I was town for the first part of the game then then my alignment was changed to one of the two mafia teams.

This is the last complete archived game in the Wayback Machine, and this was considered heavy content for xkcd. I was town.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170804225 ... 8ea5266248

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:58 am Pretty sure you and bessie were both in that game. bessie has been doing this for as long as I can remember, and I know that she did it for at least a little while before I started playing. I find it hard to believe this is the first time this has come to attention.

I replaced into this game. I was in Hawaii for a funeral so had a rough start.

EGW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:10 am I'm going to say it anyway, and then leave it at that. My thought process was that it's possible Zen is a traitor, and used that opportunity to signal to the scum team. Of course, I'm not going to use that as evidence for those three players being scum, because I can see what Bessie said as a possibility as well. Yet I think it's important I throw that idea out there, especially if Zen flips scum, and we read back on their interactions.

I am so disappointed in myself that I didn’t even consider this. I used to be a setup god.

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:11 am Ye god I hope these aren't really the votals. 3/4 of my scum reads are on Seven.

And what insights might you glean from this information? Do you think it is likely the entire scum team is voting as a block?

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:15 am Why is heury so high up? Why is EGW? Why is Adum so low? I'd really love to see some details on this because I have so many questions about the placements here.

My thoughts on heury are similar to his thoughts on me. I see his content is typical of his D1 meta. I don’t see a lot of hesitation in his posts, which I like. I’m not concerned yet about the sloppiness in his responses because in my experiences, he’s sloppier more as town than scum. And he’s the handsomest player in this group.

I started out more suspicious of EGW but I currently have him as town. I feel that at the time of that post, he was making the most effort to understand me.

I think AdumbroDeus is also making an effort to understand me, but what holds me back on putting Adum higher is his insistence that I answer this:

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:10 am Also, could you give me your thoughts on me vs. Seven, me vs. Laser, and me vs. BF?

This is just not the type of read that is in my skill set do I am sort of lost as to how to go about it.

I think Zeniba is non-town. I feel her content is anti-town.

Seven is mafia and moody is following his cues.

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:00 am bessie as a player, mafia or town, has property TP
TP is good for town
Therefore bessie is town

His logic is so absurd it's actually quite infuriating.

You are again intentionally misreading heury.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:47 am Don't think this fits. Without day talk there's really no way for a scum to assert this kind of priority before the first night without being more obvious in thread unless they're so naturally dominant. In which case, why were they on Seven in the first place? A naturally dominant non-Seven scum giving moody their marching orders would make more sense.

Are you actually suggesting that mafia!moody would not try to distance himself from his mafia partner early in D1? Moody is not a newbie he is a very experienced and excellent player. FoS for this post.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:47 am Mafia games for comparison are useful, unfortunately none of the town games are fast enough to figure out if the differences between here and Sorc's make sense.

I appreciate the effort though, guess I'll have to read through the archive which I will definitely work on today.

Maybe try this game: viewtopic.php?p=16141#p16141
I don’t think it meets your overall requirements for a fast moving game as such, but in that game I caught mafia on Page 1 and he deliberately tried to bury me in content through the entire game to discredit me. And it worked.

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:42 pm -The argument is not that bessie wouldn't resist voting somi. bessie would indeed resist voting somi if she is town.
-The argument is that bessie would not claim there is a near zero percent chance that she would vote somi
-It's the severity/degree of her statement that I'm scumreading her for. Town bessie would try to work around a potential scum read of somi, but if she was left with no other leads as strong enough alternatives to a scum read of somi, she would vote him for the sake of her wincon
-This is critically exemplified in that Newbie New Year Game I quoted. In that game, town-bessie was tunneled on town-somi, but also found mafia-peaceful whale (newbie) highly suspicious (as did the rest of the thread). Somi ended up claiming a PR so bessie had to abandon her tunnel on him and look for someone else to vote. As much as she wanted to avoid voting out a newbie Peaceful Whale that day, she was still willing to do it because we are playing mafia.

I’ve already presented proof in this thread that Seven’s own bolded line DID NOT HAPPEN as Seven is portraying it.

viewtopic.php?p=51729#p51729

I did not vote for Peaceful Whale even though I had a scum lean on him. I ended the day with a vote on Madge. There is no way you missed this. You are repeating the same false interpretation to try to bury my explanations and the proof that I presented.

Also somi wasn't her main suspicion. So it's not like she avoided voting her main suspicion in favor of someone else.

bessie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:01 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:00 am bessie as a player, mafia or town, has property TP
TP is good for town
Therefore bessie is town

His logic is so absurd it's actually quite infuriating.

You are again intentionally misreading heury.

Nope, if that was the case you could just tell me what he's actually saying. I legitimately don't understand him. Not sure why it matters to you when I'm town reading him any way. Are you two Masons btw? That would explain his weird logic around you and why you guys are town reading so hard. Hm. Ok yeah that makes sense. I retract my scum read of bessie.

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Gluelock wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:08 pm I know I'm just posting to myself right now, but I wont be here at EOD, I'm taking my sis-in-law to a comedy show tonight. So I'm trying to provide as much of my thoughts while I can.

I REALLY want an answer to my question from you before you leave. Might be crucial to me understanding your slot.

I'm kind of annoyed that I clarified very shortly after you asked for clarification ,then when you came back you didn't respond.

Refering to clarified version here: viewtopic.php?p=51858#p51858

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Gluelock wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:33 pmI'll have to go back and look at JC's post(s) up until now, I don't remember thinking his tone was off from that last game though...

Gluelock wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:55 pm

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 6:53 am
JC - Hard null. Literally no content other than posts just telling us they are catching up. I feel like the lack of even an attempt to engage with what they've read is kind of awful TBH. Does anyone have useful meta on this player they can share? Is this normal?

This is similar to the game we played together on MU, didn't post much at all D1, was relatively more active until F3 where it was me, JC, and a wolf. We were in lylo and JC didn't appear for pretty much most of the phase. He came in clutch and sided with me to vote out the wolf though.

(Side note: his username is "First 2 initials" (JC) + Daddy to 5 (Daddy25), 5 kids would keep me pretty darn busy so I'm not going to let his post count/presence be AI)

It's quite different to me. I could see his gears turning in the first couple of posts he made in the previous game, and in every post he made. Every single post he made was meaningful, so while they were few in between, you were still able to extract a lot from them.

@Seven respond to the Peaceful Whale thing.

On Sunday mornings we take our dog to the farmers market so I will be out for a couple hours.

bessie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:09 pm @Seven respond to the Peaceful Whale thing.

On Sunday mornings we take our dog to the farmers market so I will be out for a couple hours.

You were willing to vote him. "Sigh. Peaceful Whale". You just had someone else that you found scummy. If Madge wasn't scummy to you, you would have voted Peaceful Whale. You deny this?

bessie being town is wearisome for Laser then cause like he's never wrong on her. Maybe it's just the weirdness that comes from bessie-heury's role that is throwing him off?

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Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:00 pm Right, the key point is that she had an alternative. As she mentioned, there's more than 1 scum on day 1 and she was suss of whoever she was voting at the time.

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:01 pm Also somi wasn't her main suspicion. So it's not like she avoided voting her main suspicion in favor of someone else.

Thank you for this. I'm withholding my thoughts on your thought process until Somi gives theirs.

somitomi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:52 pm @Seven: what do you think of this?

@Somi: Seven has responded, I'd like an answer to the questions I asked you here: viewtopic.php?p=51944#p51944

I'd like to clarify that I'd like your thought process for the town reads and I'm asking about them at the point you made the comment.

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Looked up wearisome, that's not what that means. Correction: worrisome

Also since somi being town was based on the argument of bessie being scum, he's no longer in the core. Possibly associated with EGW based on that random as heck strongest town read.

bessie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:01 pm

EGW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:10 am I'm going to say it anyway, and then leave it at that. My thought process was that it's possible Zen is a traitor, and used that opportunity to signal to the scum team. Of course, I'm not going to use that as evidence for those three players being scum, because I can see what Bessie said as a possibility as well. Yet I think it's important I throw that idea out there, especially if Zen flips scum, and we read back on their interactions.

I am so disappointed in myself that I didn’t even consider this. I used to be a setup god.

lol that would be a terrible way to signal the team, they'd think I'm just an a dangerous towny and kill me

sorry for the barrage of posts, just thinking as I go

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:07 pm it'st

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:20 pm an a dangerous

pfft


Vote: JC_Daddy

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:07 pmI'm kind of annoyed that I clarified very shortly after you asked for clarification ,then when you came back you didn't respond.

This just shows Gluelock has a lack of motivation to actually answer the question.

sorry one more post and I'll try to post less

sorry T_T sorry

EGW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:29 pm

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:07 pmI'm kind of annoyed that I clarified very shortly after you asked for clarification ,then when you came back you didn't respond.

This just shows Gluelock has a lack of motivation to actually answer the question.

Bluelock is town and I will die for him

btw I'm a neighborizer, who wants me to target them tonight?

bessie wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:01 pm Woof good morning! Picking up approximately where I left off.

Seven wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 4:27 am

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 1:11 am @anyone can feel free to do it too, give comparably fast moving games where Bessie wasn't in a hydra so I can compare her play to them.
");

The only ones I can think of are in the difficult-to-read archive versions that we have that I linked. Crossover mafia would be the go-to. A game that also highlights the insanity that is BoomFrog.

If you attempt to read this game, I was town for the first part of the game then then my alignment was changed to one of the two mafia teams.

This is the last complete archived game in the Wayback Machine, and this was considered heavy content for xkcd. I was town.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170804225 ... 8ea5266248

Getting "not archived" errors at least on pages 10 and 11 unfortunately unfortunately.

I really appreciate you being a good sport on this.

This is just not the type of read that is in my skill set do I am sort of lost as to how to go about it.

Honestly if you're that lost on how to figure them out, I doubt they'll be at all useful to me trying to understand your thought process anyway. I'm trying to figure out a cypher to translate your play in this game.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:47 am Don't think this fits. Without day talk there's really no way for a scum to assert this kind of priority before the first night without being more obvious in thread unless they're so naturally dominant. In which case, why were they on Seven in the first place? A naturally dominant non-Seven scum giving moody their marching orders would make more sense.

Are you actually suggesting that mafia!moody would not try to distance himself from his mafia partner early in D1? Moody is not a newbie he is a very experienced and excellent player. FoS for this post.

What I'm saying is it doesn't make sense, if they were distancing before, why would Seven's post then suddenly be taken as marching orders? This kind of read of a scum dynamic, without any scum chat yet, requires Seven to be so reflexively dominant in the scum dynamic that moody would be expected to just sheep them the entire game.

Unless you have a specific post or two you think constituted marching orders of "do this now" and why. I didn't see that with seven's posts but I'd be interested in seeing what you think.

I currently have overall thoughts on this discussion between you two, but I'm withholding them until Somi responds. Possibly until you also respond to this.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:47 am Mafia games for comparison are useful, unfortunately none of the town games are fast enough to figure out if the differences between here and Sorc's make sense.

I appreciate the effort though, guess I'll have to read through the archive which I will definitely work on today.

Maybe try this game: viewtopic.php?p=16141#p16141
I don’t think it meets your overall requirements for a fast moving game as such, but in that game I caught mafia on Page 1 and he deliberately tried to bury me in content through the entire game to discredit me. And it worked.

Thank you. From your description, sounds like what Chaco did to me in bingo Mafia.

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EGW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:29 pm

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:07 pmI'm kind of annoyed that I clarified very shortly after you asked for clarification ,then when you came back you didn't respond.

This just shows Gluelock has a lack of motivation to actually answer the question.

This post was actually insightful, wish all your posts had this level of insight and understanding of facts and context.

That's a strong possibility on my head which is why I brought it back to their attention and specifically said I'm annoyed about the lack of an answer.

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I think I finally have an understanding of Bessie's slot now through the lense of the seven/Bessie conflict but I'm waiting for Bessie and Somi (don't have a bead on their alignment yet) to answer the questions I posed to them before saying because I don't want to corrupt answers. Also need to read the threads I was referenced as sanity checks for my thought process.

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I am at a convention with my daughter so you guys are lucky you get any time, but I need to avert this train wreck. I've read to here for reference. So fast and furious for you:

Adum
Let's start with Adum since he's the lynch pin. Seven's case and concern are spot on. Adum did the same thing with me where he confidentially town read me when he should have scum read me. My case against him was presented in an intentionally unpersuasive way, him still finding me townie there felt very tmi.

I didn't bring this up because I wanted him to keep spewing who else is town and he's done that with seven and egw. Also, I might be wrong and then he's an amazing asset to town.

The solution isn't to eliminate him toDay. We proclaim doom on him. If we don't catch scum before D3 we yeet him. Especially if Seven and I are eliminated by then. This gets the best of both worlds. Maybe we yeet him D2 but not D1.

Whether he is town or scum his hard town reads are very likely town. Let's take that and run with it.

Seven
@EGW: There's is 100% no chance that Seven and Adum are buddies. Seven's case against Adum is the only possible weakness wolf!Adum has in his play. There is no way Seven brings it up when no one else has expressed concern. Throw out all theories that require them to be buddies.

That said, Seven has had two townie moves. One is town reading me for my memory lapse. Scum!Seven could have saved that in his back pocket for later since it looked superficially scummy. His other is claiming the "townslip" about Moody. He thinks he's right (more on that later), but regardless he thinks it's legit. Scum!Seven wouldn't want to give Moody a free confirmed townie card if Moody is town. And scum!Seven wouldn't try to pass off scumbuddy!Moody as town on a slip that he expects me to challenge him on.

EGW
@Seven: You are biased because you scum read him so early but then never rectified in thread so you just confirmation biased the whole game day. He really was holding back because he was advised to, and besides breaking his townie meta it's been good for letting other's show their thoughts.

Anyway, there's no way egw and Adum are scum buddies. Egw's attack is too serious and egw doesn't like to try scum theater. Look at Adum's response to the attack, he's doing the same thing where he does mental backflips to keep town reading egw. That's tmi, not scum theater.

Also, I know I can't find the reference but I saw egws read of you change organically. He's really scum hunting.

Bessie
@Seven: How did you miss the part in NNY where she still didn't actually vote for PW?!? And you skipped her mentioning it in her response when you summarized the issue. This is 100% the behavior she is saying she would follow in a similar hypothetical with Somi in this game. Step back and accept you are wrong about this case.

Then after you have accepted that, think about my case that if she was scum she couldn't be confident there isn't a situation she would vote Somi. Scum have more reason to manipulate a vote. Her attitude is actually a townie perspective

Out of time. Good luck. I'll be back before deadline.

This game seems to be centered around night chats. Does anyone else have night chat roles like me, bess, somi, and heury?

@moody did your marching orders post refer to day chat?