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Thank you sabrar for confirming that.

I was pming Sabrar about this, and they initially defended loud lying about cop results, but made this post right after I said essentially that people being able to make stuff up and present it as mod confirmed role information was definitely bastard.

The immediate most logical interpretation is a cop with loud results, and said loud results cop is either paranoid or insane.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:35 pm
The immediate most logical interpretation is a cop with loud results, and said loud results cop is either paranoid or insane.

mods can you confirm a random cop would be considered bastard by the rules?

I will of course note that they presented it as an example, so they did not fully confirm that it was a cop result.

But they absolutely confirmed it to be a role result and a paranoid/insane cop that has loud results only is the logical conclusion for who the results came from. It has to be a modifier on role itself, otherwise the JOAT cop that seven is claiming would've gotten it also.

Or, me going really paranoid, maybe they're insane/paranoid in public results but sane in private results. Alternatively, maybe they got hit by a role that flips results.

Wam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:42 pmmods can you confirm a random cop would be considered bastard by the rules?

No comment for the time-being. I will discuss with Madge if we should answer but don't keep your hopes up.

I'll note I didn't expect Madge/Sabrar to confirm in game for sure like this, Madge in particular tends to keep her modding cards close to her chest.

The best I was hoping for, after I interpreted sabrar's initial PM as suggesting it was a loud actual role result rather than a made up thing presented as mod information, was more implication that I was right.

I still don't like loud cop results without saying it's a cop result. Especially in a game that can have paranoid/insane cops, or some manipulation on them. I don't think that can reasonably be anticipated and it's only because I got copped by somebody else that it can be anticipated.

That said, I feel... A little better about this, so I guess I'll..

rescind replacement request

But ya, loud results only cop whose results can be wrong (whether inherent to the cop or some other role) is definitely at the bleeding edge of bastardry, and I think it crosses over.

But not as bad as presenting some sort of messages as mod confirmed role info.

Guys can we not have meltdowns over perceived bastardry if we are ignorant of very common role modifiers like "loud"? Really unfair to madge/sabrar and the integrity of the game. A little research could have made this all a lot cleaner

Seven we need to talk this out because if you're claiming an inno on adum then my understanding of what actually went down last night is seriously called into question. I'm not going to you to claim but I'm pretty sure I know what you are barring a few things. But obviously Im aware that tailor and paranoid/crazy cop exist which could be framing adum here. But if you have a non cop way of clearing him you need to come out with it at this point

Makhaira wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:01 pm Guys can we not have meltdowns over perceived bastardry if we are ignorant of very common role modifiers like "loud"? Really unfair to madge/sabrar and the integrity of the game. A little research could have made this all a lot cleaner

Seven we need to talk this out because if you're claiming an inno on adum then my understanding of what actually went down last night is seriously called into question. I'm not going to you to claim but I'm pretty sure I know what you are barring a few things. But obviously Im aware that tailor and paranoid/crazy cop exist which could be framing adum here. But if you have a non cop way of clearing him you need to come out with it at this point

Look back at what I said, "loud" existing was very obvious.

I do think results only, if they can be modified (whether internal or external) is bastard for cop.

And I think a sane loud cop without the possibility of results interfering roles is just stupid.

Oh shit I completely misunderstood something about the timing of my ability fml

Ok I actually know way less about what's going on than I thought thats my bad.

Unvote

So yeah long and short of it is I did target someone last night and I thought my ability would have its effect the same night but it is fact delayed by a night so that's on me not reading carefully enough sorry yall. So yeah my theory about exactly how things happened last night is shot

Still great work by the protective tho whoever that is well played

I agree with the statement earlier that the traffic analyzer I think bolsters theas and Fred's mason claim as that works well to generate false positives to prevent the traffic analyzer becoming a follow the cop situation

Also, Mak, I'm pretty sure what you did and I don't want you to explain your role further.

I say right after he further explains his role, but you can stop there please.

Also you really should read what I posted in more detail.

Oh.

Actually I guess I was wrong about what I thought Mak did, my bad.

Im not going to get into a meta argument about what is/isn't bastard mid game but what I will say is I think it is very uncharitable to say "being able to mess with cop results, or the possibility of paranoid/crazy cop, is bastard". These are very common powerroles featured in the most basic of games that any experienced mafia player would and should know about

Sorry to come down on you guns blazing after clearly going through some shit IRL but I'm not a fan of calling mods bastard publicly over things that could have been worked out privately with the mods and then paraphrased in main thread. It is damaging to game integrity to essentially force mod interaction with slots in main game thread. Not my game tho so I'm done with the scolding, sab and madge seem to have it under control

Yeah adum I'm not giving any more info about my role for now, but I really think seven needs to come out with what he's got at this point so we can solve whether your public guilty result is fake/tampered with with a greater degree of certainty

Nope, results only loudness is the problem, that reads it as fully mod confirmed.

This is now important for sorting because that's the reason I don't think your or anyone else's bloodthirstiness is scummy.

This was not a mod lie that could be reasonably anticipated. The fact that you, assuming you're town, fell for it completely unquestionably shows that.

Seven wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:35 pm

Wam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:29 pm Seven to be clear you have a town result on adum?

That's not quite where my head was. I had worked out you were claiming the joat cop but I assumed you had a 3rd party result of.say survivor.

Explicitly a town result, yes.

I just played in a game where a tracker said this just because they tracked someone in a 3 scum game with assignable factional kill and they got "did not target anyone" on the slot. Please do not be that guy

Makhaira wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:16 pm Yeah adum I'm not giving any more info about my role for now, but I really think seven needs to come out with what he's got at this point so we can solve whether your public guilty result is fake/tampered with with a greater degree of certainty

He already said it was a cop result. She targeted me as a JOAT cop.

Also, I stated that I'm 99.9% sure I drew the NK last night.

OK so assuming we have a loud cop who's sanity is unknown. We can work out the sanity later (unless it's random...)

We have seven and adum as con town.

So going back to where I was end of day 1.

vote bessie

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:17 pm Nope, results only loudness is the problem, that reads it as fully mod confirmed.

This is now important for sorting because that's the reason I don't think your or anyone else's bloodthirstiness is scummy.

This was not a mod lie that could be reasonably anticipated. The fact that you, assuming you're town, fell for it completely unquestionably shows that.

fwiw when I made that push right off the rip, I had not written off the possibility of a tailor/framer and/or crazy/paranoid cop, but I felt those probabilities to be low enough that in conjunction with what else I thought I knew, that the result was trustworthy. It was obvious to me that the cop result was loud and I took it as "we are getting the cops result PM publicly in an identical fashion to how the cop would have normally received it, and as such it is just as vulnerable to tampering/insane/paranoia/redirecting as a cop normally would be"

To be more clear, I interpreted the cop ability to be a one shot power the JOAT has, and based on that I think the likelihood of the result being insane/paranoid is very low. Seven seems to be confident that it was tampered with tho by tailor/framer so I am very interested to hear more about that

Makhaira wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:19 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:35 pm

Wam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:29 pm Seven to be clear you have a town result on adum?

That's not quite where my head was. I had worked out you were claiming the joat cop but I assumed you had a 3rd party result of.say survivor.

Explicitly a town result, yes.

I just played in a game where a tracker said this just because they tracked someone in a 3 scum game with assignable factional kill and they got "did not target anyone" on the slot. Please do not be that guy

That guy was an idiot

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:23 pm

Makhaira wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:16 pm Yeah adum I'm not giving any more info about my role for now, but I really think seven needs to come out with what he's got at this point so we can solve whether your public guilty result is fake/tampered with with a greater degree of certainty

He already said it was a cop result. She targeted me as a JOAT cop.

Also, I stated that I'm 99.9% sure I drew the NK last night.

you know who targeted you as cop? And you know it wasn't misdirected or anything?

Having good reason to think you were an NK target is def +town for you but less so in multiball if thats what kind of setup we are in. I'd holster that info for now tho until seven gets back

Wam wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:23 pm

Makhaira wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:19 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:35 pm Explicitly a town result, yes.

I just played in a game where a tracker said this just because they tracked someone in a 3 scum game with assignable factional kill and they got "did not target anyone" on the slot. Please do not be that guy

That guy was an idiot

Yes they were. I don't think seven would make that same mistake but seven loves to overstate what they know/have done as far as PRs are concerned

Btw courts got snowed out today so I got a random day off and am down to being an absolute degenerate today and puzzle this out

Makhaira wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2024 4:23 pm
To be more clear, I interpreted the cop ability to be a one shot power the JOAT has, and based on that I think the likelihood of the result being insane/paranoid is very low. Seven seems to be confident that it was tampered with tho by tailor/framer so I am very interested to hear more about that

They had the traffic analyzer backup separating them, it was obvious they were distinct roles.

But again, you said you had a strong townread on me before this (as saying you didn't feel the pocket implied) and assuming you're town, you fell for it immediately, not reasonably anticipatable. That's why bloodthirst was NAI.