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Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:45 am**

Well played scum. I didn't do any real analysis from the sidelines (cf the "Pregnancy Announcement" thread for context), but I did post my general vibe thoughts in Gojoe. I'd pinned the worst as scum D1, but was completely blindsided by osie being scum in bessie vs osie (which I put as TvT or bessie as scum). Probably I'd not have made a difference in the endgame, as Madge was my choice for scum buddy based on vibe.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:44 am**

madge wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:15 am when McGowanstan eventually joins the rest of the world*, come visit and i'll show you some good sushi

*and I say that as a McGowan stan

Hahaha i have coworkers in WA and I literally forget they're in Australia sometimes.

I'll so hit you up next time I visit

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:25 am**

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:16 am Lol. It was cathartic, albeit just reminding me of how frustrating Bessie's posts were regardless of alignment. (It would have been funnier if Bessie had responded to it, though.)

I legit probably would have made it as either alignment, though.

What did you find frustrating?

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:26 am**

update my husband is bringing us bento boxes for dinner because it's too hot to cook and i cbf, so i will be enjoying sushi. thank you for the inspo the worst

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:34 pm**

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:25 am
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:16 am Lol. It was cathartic, albeit just reminding me of how frustrating Bessie's posts were regardless of alignment. (It would have been funnier if Bessie had responded to it, though.)

I legit probably would have made it as either alignment, though.
What did you find frustrating?

Mostly what I was saying throughout the game. Bessie's push felt extremely disingenuous. I felt that I was repeatedly having my words misrepresented, that I wasn't being engaged in conversation in good faith, that I was being gaslit, that there was a degree of just trying to make me personally look bad regardless of the game, and that Bessie hadn't really been sorting or explaining her reads with real reasoning. That she had just chosen me soon after the game had started and had said "I want to eliminate this person regardless of their alignment."

It felt like Bessie was open wolfing, regardless of either of our alignments. And considering that most of that was in Day 1, when my mindset/play is pretty much pure and the same across alignments, a hard tunnel in response to what felt like an extremely disingenuous push filled with misrepresentations is exactly what I would do as either alignment because it usually means that push is from scum. I think I've seen pushes that felt this way in at least about 8 other games and every time they were scum pushing on town.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:53 pm**

Yeah possibly the only thing in Day 1 that I might not have done as town was the manner of engagement with the worst. I'd either have engaged a lot more or a lot less, most likely.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:53 pm**

Most of not everything else was entirely organic.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:36 pm**

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:34 pm
Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:25 am
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:16 am Lol. It was cathartic, albeit just reminding me of how frustrating Bessie's posts were regardless of alignment. (It would have been funnier if Bessie had responded to it, though.)

I legit probably would have made it as either alignment, though.
What did you find frustrating?
Mostly what I was saying throughout the game. Bessie's push felt extremely disingenuous. I felt that I was repeatedly having my words misrepresented, that I wasn't being engaged in conversation in good faith, that I was being gaslit, that there was a degree of just trying to make me personally look bad regardless of the game, and that Bessie hadn't really been sorting or explaining her reads with real reasoning. That she had just chosen me soon after the game had started and had said "I want to eliminate this person regardless of their alignment."

It felt like Bessie was open wolfing, regardless of either of our alignments. And considering that most of that was in Day 1, when my mindset/play is pretty much pure and the same across alignments, a hard tunnel in response to what felt like an extremely disingenuous push filled with misrepresentations is exactly what I would do as either alignment because it usually means that push is from scum. I think I've seen pushes that felt this way in at least about 8 other games and every time they were scum pushing on town.

I could see this. I find that frustrating sometimes as well. Rereading the first few pages again though, it seems to me that bessie just caught you redhanded and there wasn't anything you could do to get out of it. You were scum, she figured it out. Nothing after that was going to convince her otherwise.

I don't really trust self-claims of how a person would have behaved as another alignment. It's pretty much an illusion due to hindsight bias.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:49 pm**

Hope you all had a good game was interesting to Mod. All roles with submitter and player are below along with my notes from N1 and N2. I didn't actually change any roles whilst there were a lot of investigative roles I thought the game was balanced.

Thank you Seven for Co Modding.

Notes

- I think I messed up the implementation of Osie's role
- Osie getting the Catgirl role was completely random, however, I may have made that role scum for balance reasons anyway.
- I had missed the part of Osie's role that meant it could target any player living or dead and that's why I decided to stop dead players reading spoilers as that could be swingy.
- First Game I have modded in a while just glad I didn't do a game breaking mistake!

Submitted: Moody, Played by The Worst

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Police Mix Tape

You enjoy the music of the Police, and want to share it with other people. The cassette player you're using for your mix tape is a bit unusual however, and has odd effects on the person who listens to it (that the shop you bought it at was in what used to be a vacant lot and had a wizened crone behind the cash register should have tipped you off).

Player may only play one track per night. Tracks may only be played once. Tracks may be played in any order.

"Don't Stand So Close To Me"--Any night actions taken against the target will fail
"Every Breath You Take"--Watcher
"Roxanne"--(you don't have to turn on the red light) Roleblock
"Synchronicity"-- switch players X and Y for purposes of night actions

Submitted: Bessie, Played by Boomfrog

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Role: Santa’s Watchdog-in-Training

Woof! You are one of Santa’s puppies, in training to be a watchdog. Oh boy, this is the bestest job ever! You get lots of treats, you get to sleep on a soft pillow, and when you get big, if you are a very good dog, you get to go for lots of rides in the sleigh! You’re going to be the goodest dog ever!

Ability: In addition to your other duties (which include sitting, shaking paws, and fetching the ball) each night you will select one other player to watch, and you will learn who visited that player on the night you watched them.

Special ability: You are enthusiastic and anxious to be the bestest watch dog ever. Once during the game, you may watch everyone, and you will learn who targeted everyone on that night. However, you are still a puppy and a bit overeager, and you forgot which results go with which player [results will be player/random result]. For the remainder of the game, you are distracted by this misstep, and your result on each subsequent night will have a 50% chance of being the correct result for the player you targeted, and a 50% chance of being from a random player [the result will be target/correct result or target/random result]. Woof, is that a squirrel??

Submitted: Heury, Played by The Snide Sniper

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Absorber:
An Absorber passively and reflexively copies all active abilities that target it. The Absorber can then use its "absorbed" abilities on subsequent Nights.

Example Role PM: Whenever an active, non-factional ability is targeted at an Absorber, the Absorber will permanently gain that ability (in addition to any other abilities the might have already gained). The Absorber can then use it on future nights. The Absorber cannot copy factional abilities like the Mafia's kill.

Another option is that any ability they absorb can only be used during the next night phase.
If you think tough men are dangerous, wait til you see what weak men are capable of.

Submitted: Boomfrog, Played by Heury

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Ghost of Christmas Never

You are not as popular as your three brother ghosts but technically your domain is larger then all of there's put together. You hold sway over all the Christmases that will never happen. But now that the multiverse has become a popular idea thanks to some new Marval movies, people are starting to be interested in getting visions from you again.

Vision of a Christmas Never: - Night Action - You target a player and learn all sorts of useful info about what they might have done this Night phase. But not about what they actually did. You learn three pieces of information: Their Role Name, Who they Targeted, and Who targeted them, like a rolecop, watcher and tracker all at once! However, exactly one of those three pieces of information will be incorrect.

Mod notes (you can share with the player if that fits your style):
Incorrect Role names will be selected randomly from all existing role names in the game.
Incorrect tracker results will be randomized between all living players (excluding that player themself) plus the option of no one.
Incorrect watcher results always include the Ghost of Christmas Never, and have a 50% chance of no one else. If targeted by "someone" then pick randomly like the tracker results and flip a coin again to see if targeted by a second person. Continue until the 50% chance fails. So basically 50% chance of just the Christmas Ghost, 25% chance to one extra result, 12.5% chance of 2 extra results, etc... Reroll duplicates.
Top

Submitted: Madge, Played by Moody

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Role: Christmas Cherry

Description:

The poms and the seppos might not be onto it, but the humble cherry is a traditional symbol of Christmas in Australia, because with scorching summer days comes cherry season. And they're red. And you put them on puddings. What's more Christmasy than that?

Power: "with a cherry on top" is a popular turn of phrase that implies a cherry is something that is quite good at enticing people to do their best, and as a result, you are very good at motivating, so you are a motivator (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Motivator). However, because you're literally a cherry, the target of the motivated bonus action will 'have a cherry on top' of them the next day.

Mechanics:

N1: Anna the Cherry targets Bethany. Bethany is a doctor.
N1 Bethany gets a PM saying that she is motivated for N2, and her second action will deposit a cherry on her target

N2: Bethany targets Claire with her normal doctor and Denise with her motivated doctor. (Bethany says which is which, but you can tell them in the PM that you'll assume the second name is the motivated/cherry'd action). Both targets are protected.

In the N2 day start flavour it says "Denise has a cherry on top of her!"

Logic: I wanted a pretty straightforward power but I wanted to give it a little bit of extra random PIZZAZZ and this seemed to be an easy way to do it. Also I'd love to see town panic and be confused about the random cherries appearing each day and me knowing what's up and being smug about it. Also I think the use of the public cherry will be great for confirming people.

Submitted: The Snide Sniper, Played by Osieorb

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Catgirl
You are a catgirl
Any cop-like role, upon investigating you, will report that you are a catgirl, regardless of your actual faction or the faction that it would normally detect
(If the recipient is a member of the mafia) If you are chosen to perform the mafia kill, and are caught by a lookout or similar role, they will report only that the target was visited by a catgirl
Your sharp ears are capable of identifying anybody who visits you during the night
This may need to be buffed a bit to be viable, but that will have to be up to you. The flavor would probably be that the recipient got a catgirl costume as a present last year that was supposed to be a gag gift but that they secretly really liked.

Submitted: Osieorb Played by WMU

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

You start the game holding 7 gift items. Each gift item has an effect as long as any player is holding them. No player is told the effects of the gift items. As a Night action, in addition to other actions, anyone holding a gift item may give it to another player. Each player holding a gift item MUST give at least one gift item to another player if able. Additional effects happen whenever a gift item is given.
Bumpy Gift - {Hidden: Manipulative actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Combined Disloyal-Vigilantes + Loyal-Poisoners ("Another target player is killed if they are of an opposite alignment from you and is poisoned if they are of the same alignment from you.") instead. When this gift is given, each player with an item cannot have their actions prevented by anything during that Night.}
Large Gift - {Hidden: Voting actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Mass Fruit Vendors ("Each other player gets a fruit item this Night of a type that has yet to be given out.") instead. When this gift is given, each player without a fruit gets a fruit item that Night of a type that has yet to be given out.}
Long Gift - {Hidden: Killing actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Trackers ("Learn who another target player targeted this Night.") instead. When this gift is given, each player with an item that Night becomes a Ninja ("Your actions cannot be seen by investigative actions") until the end of the following Day.}
Round Gift - {Hidden: Communicative actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Haters ("Another target player requires one fewer vote to eliminate during the following Day") instead. When this gift is given, each item held by a player gives that player an extra vote during the following Day.}
Short Gift - {Hidden: Investigative actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Nymphomaniacs ("Another target player becomes your Lover for the rest of the game. You gain a chat with that player and as long as you are Lovers, if either of you die, the other one does as well.") instead. When this gift is given, each player is given a Rose item (Roses have no effect).}
Small Gift - {Hidden: Protective actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Roleblockers ("Prevent all actions another target player would take this Night.") instead. When this gift is given, each player other than the giver and receiver cannot be targeted that Night.}
Square Gift - {Hidden: Actions that are not Communicative, Investigative, Killing, Manipulative, Protective, or Voting and have not been modified by a gift act as Doctors ("Protect another target player from killing actions this Night.") instead. When this gift is given, each player with an item becomes Deathproof ("You cannot die") until the end of the following Day.}
Whenever you receive an item that is not a gift, it becomes a copy of the gift that is closest to it alphabetically.

Each Night, as a Night action, you may target another player, living or dead, who you have yet to target with this ability, to gain their abilities on a gift item. This action cannot be prevented.

Submitted: The Worst Played by Madge

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

How about a multitasking compulsive loud visitor?

Multitasking = if this is a scum role, they can do the factional kill; if town, they can use other roles if they have them due to shenanigans.

Compulsive = they must target every night.

Loud = every person they target is told that they were targeted by this player, but not which action/s were used.

This isn't as funny as I'd usually try and go for sorry.

Submitted: WMU/Wam Played by Bessie

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Movie hacker.

You are the quintessential movie hacker, you bash away at your keyboard and magic happens giving you the answer.

Each night please submit between 2-25 characters to the mod. You will receive something back.

Not sent to the player, mod only: create a formula for what the random code means. I.e. 2-5 characters gives a cop 5-10 doc etc. If you knew the formula it would ruin the fun!

Mod Notes: Number of characters determines power. 2-5 watcher, 5-10 tracker 10-15 cop 15-20 doc 20-25 random choice of the above. All numbers and letters are allocated to a sum which is linked to the player list in the OP. I.e total of 17 gives player 8.

N1

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Inputs

Osieorb shoots boomfrog

The worst swaps WMU and Huery

WMU Give the round gift to Moody

Boomfrog watches TSS

Madge Visits OSie

Huery targets Boomfrog

Bessie sends WOOF

TSS role is passive

Notes

Round Gift - {Hidden: Communicative actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Haters ("Another target player requires one fewer vote to eliminate during the following Day") instead. When this gift is given, each item held by a player gives that player an extra vote during the following Day.} I read this is Moody get’s an additional vote which is irrelevant as he is dead.

WOOF – 4 characters give bessie a watcher, W= 23rd letter O = 15 and F= 6 total number of points is 59 which divided by 9 is the 7th player in the list so Osie.

For Heury Their Rolename is the incorrect piece of information. Random .org gave me Moody’s rolename so “With a Cherry on Top”

Results

TSS gains a one shot watcher ability

Boomfrog dies

Osie gets a message saying “You were visited by Madge in the night”

Huery get’s a result of Boomfrogs rolename is “With a Cherry on Top”, Boomfrog targeted the Snide Sniper, Boomfrog was targeted by yourself and a Cat Girl

Bessie gets a messaged The worst was targetted by no one last night.

N2

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Inputs

Wmu gives the large gift to Osie

Moody gives the round gift to WMU

Madge visits the worst

Bessie sends woofwoofwoof

TSS watches bessie

Osie Kills Bessie

The worst uses Roxanne on WMU (roleblock)

Notes

Large Gift - {Hidden: Voting actions that have not been modified by a gift act as Mass Fruit Vendors ("Each other player gets a fruit item this Night of a type that has yet to be given out.") instead. When this gift is given, each player without a fruit gets a fruit item that Night of a type that has yet to be given out.}

Woofwoofwoof gives (23 (w) + 15*2 (O) + 6 (F) )*3= 177 = 9 gives 20 so the 2nd player in the plyaers list it rolls through. So it’s a self target. I’m going to be honest I didn’t even think about self targeting. It’s irrelevant as bessie is dead but I’m going to allow self targetting. 12 gives a cop result.

Results

The worst gets a note “You were visited by Madge”

WMU is roleblocked so doesn’t give out a gift, WMU gets a note “You were unable to give out a gift tonight”

WMU gets the round gift back from Moody. WMU should get an extra vote but as it’s LYLO so not valid I will tell WMU though.

Bessie gets a result “Bessie is town”

TSS Gets a result “Bessie was visited by a Catgirl

Bessie dies.

TSS gets no one shots as they were not targetted by anything during the night.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:04 pm**

Oh, all of these roles are fantastic. Sorry my inspo was so low.

madge wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:26 am update my husband is bringing us bento boxes for dinner because it's too hot to cook and i cbf, so i will be enjoying sushi. thank you for the inspo the worst

Very strong choice

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:58 pm**

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:49 pmNotes

- I think I messed up the implementation of Osie's role
- Osie getting the Catgirl role was completely random, however, I may have made that role scum for balance reasons anyway.
- I had missed the part of Osie's role that meant it could target any player living or dead and that's why I decided to stop dead players reading spoilers as that could be swingy.
- First Game I have modded in a while just glad I didn't do a game breaking mistake!

The way that the role was supposed to be able to target dead players had nothing to do with the giving of gifts, just the creation of gifts. It was a gravedigger effect. The dead players would have no interaction with the gifts.

You also forgot to implement all the passives, which should have been a thing for each gift held by a living player (including the inventor).

This would mean that:

Inputs

Osieorb shoots boomfrog

The worst swaps WMU and Huery

WMU Give the round gift to Moody WMU gets a copy of Moody's abilities on a new type of gift.

Boomfrog watches TSS

Madge Visits OSie

Huery targets Boomfrog

Bessie sends WOOF

TSS role is passive

WOOF – 4 characters give bessie a watcher, W= 23rd letter O = 15 and F= 6 total number of points is 59 which divided by 9 is the 7th player in the list so Osie.

would become:

MODIFIED:

Osie tracks boomfrog (Unless you make it not affect factional actions)

The worst shoots WMU and Heury.

[WMU gets a copy of Moody's abilities on a new type of gift.]

Boomfrog and TSS become lovers, but TSS's reflexive absorption also exists...

Madge doctors Osie.

Heury and Boomfrog become lovers.

Bessie and Osie become lovers.

TSS's reflexive absorption (manipulative) exists and becomes a reflexive killing action instead, so Boomfrog becomes poisoned.

Result:

WMU, Heury, Boomfrog, and TSS all die.

Bessie and Osie become lovers.

Osie tracks Boomfrog to TSS (Or not)

Madge, Bessie, Osie, and the Worst are the only living players. Scum wins at SoD2.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:07 pm**

This comes to mind after figuring that out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQCArh_R9dY

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:10 pm**

I should have clarified but I did assume the inventor was immune to all gifts unless they went out and back.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:12 pm**

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:36 pmI don't really trust self-claims of how a person would have behaved as another alignment. It's pretty much an illusion due to hindsight bias.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I made that comment during and before the game as well and it's pretty much the number one comment I usually get on my scum game, that Day 1 is identical to my town game, especially the start of Day 1. Which is intentional. I go into the game thinking of it as a normal town game and reading everyone, buddies or not, in that vein. I vaguely recall at least one town game where for the lols I did the opposite, but it was a while ago and I don't remember which one it was. I have intentionally low-efforted (not to the point of lurking, but definitely not taking things seriously) as town occasionally just to thumb my nose at people who rely on cold meta since it's L1 solving.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:12 pm**

Although with my pedantic hat on

Roles will be randomly allocated based on those submitted by the players. Roles will not be allocated to the submitter, the mod reserves the right to alter roles for any reason.

Mod error is any reason

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:12 pm**

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:10 pm I should have clarified but I did assume the inventor was immune to all gifts unless they went out and back.

The inventor's actions being immune was the idea, but the passives were supposed to affect the whole game.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:13 pm**

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:12 pm Although with my pedantic hat on

Roles will be randomly allocated based on those submitted by the players. Roles will not be allocated to the submitter, the mod reserves the right to alter roles for any reason.

Mod error is any reason

I mean...

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:07 pm This comes to mind after figuring that out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQCArh_R9dY

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:15 pm**

I like all of the submitted roles and the number of investigatives is amazing.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:20 pm**

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:36 pmRereading the first few pages again though, it seems to me that bessie just caught you redhanded and there wasn't anything you could do to get out of it. You were scum, she figured it out. Nothing after that was going to convince her otherwise.

Also this feels like a really generous interpretation of:

'This person's playstyle isn't the way I like to play the game so I'm going to call them out for not grouping their posts into one."

Since that's was actually all that bessie's "catch" amounted to.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:21 pm**

madge wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:26 am update my husband is bringing us bento boxes for dinner because it's too hot to cook and i cbf, so i will be enjoying sushi. thank you for the inspo the worst

Ahhh I haven't had a bento box in years.

Posted: **Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:52 pm**

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:20 pm
Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:36 pmRereading the first few pages again though, it seems to me that bessie just caught you redhanded and there wasn't anything you could do to get out of it. You were scum, she figured it out. Nothing after that was going to convince her otherwise.
Also this feels like a really generous interpretation of:

'This person's playstyle isn't the way I like to play the game so I'm going to call them out for not grouping their posts into one."

Since that's was actually all that bessie's "catch" amounted to.

These are all valid non-playstyle points in my opinion:

Post 7: Rolefishing, opening the door to speculate on a possible Snide Sniper soft claim. Also making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post (related thoughts). [-1]
Post 11: However, note that Osie does not question my FoS of him that was in the same post. [-1]
Post 13: Reply/joke to WakeMeUp. Second attempt of association with this game and WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [-1]
You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]
Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:57 am**

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:52 pmThese are all valid non-playstyle points in my opinion:

Post 7: Rolefishing, opening the door to speculate on a possible Snide Sniper soft claim. Also making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post (related thoughts). [-1]
Post 11: However, note that Osie does not question my FoS of him that was in the same post. [-1]
Post 13: Reply/joke to WakeMeUp. Second attempt of association with this game and WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [-1]
Post 19: You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]
Post 20: Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]

7 - As mentioned during the game, there was no rolefishing intended; it was just a declaration of a townlean, and a bit of a joke (fitting for RVS). Considering it to potentially be rolefishing is legitimate, though, even though it wasn't. As for the second post thing, that's entirely just that I had the thoughts separately. I post as I speak, thought by thought. Especially with playing across sites, I've usually been breaking those thoughts up into multiple posts. Not remotely alignment indicative.

11 - I started intentionally ignoring naked votes and naked FoS a while ago. It's an intentional playstyle choice, as either alignment, from months ago. Again, not alignment indicative.

13 - Friendly chatting with people with whom I'm familiar is normal regardless of alignment. WMU and I had just finished a game together, and chatting about that game in the way that happened isn't alignment indicative.

19 - The vote for Moody is legitimately a scummy behaviour on a general level, though I actually have no particular reasoning behind it. It's not outside of something I'd do as either alignment just on a "I don't always explain my thinking". Maybe less likely as town since I might have been going more balls to the wall instead of soft reaction testing there. Not certain on that front.

20 - The wording being awkward would be a legitimate "catch" instead of just playstyle. I am fence-sitty as either alignment but that post was a little forced. The statement that bessie made of me being "less concerned" is not applicable to the actual issues in the wording though. If she had called out it seeming forced as a follow-up to my previous post that would have been relevant.

%%%

Essentially, most of my early game posts were chatting or starting to solve without consideration to my alignment or the existence of a partner. Prior to my readlist, when bessie made her own read on me, there wasn't really anything to catch that wouldn't be there as either alignment.

So the start and core of bessie's actual "read" on me was fundamentally based on a playstyle difference, not on an actual "catch".

You can even see it in the malignment wall. Her points amount to:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Post 1 : Confirm. [0]
Post 2 : Active lurking, contentless post. First post of game. [0]
Post 3 : RVS. Making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post. [-1]
Post 4 : Since Osie denies this post contains a breadcrumb (see Posts 5 and 6) this is active lurking. Post for the sake of posting. [-1]
Post 5 : Denies Post 4 is a breadcrumb. [0]
Post 6 : Reply to the worst re Post 4, and buddying? [-1]

Anything of note up to this point is Playstyle Clash.

Post 7 : Rolefishing, opening the door to speculate on a possible Snide Sniper soft claim. Also making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post (related thoughts). [-1]

Rolefishing point isn't applicable but is legitimate. Rest is playstyle clash.

Post 8 : Inside joke to WakeMeUp. Also makes an early association with WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [Note I do not know what NUF is.] [-1]
Post 9 : Reply/joke to the worst. Possible buddying. [0]
Post 10 : Another double post that could have been part of the previous post. Ironically accuses the Worst of buddying WakeMeUp. [-1]
Post 11 : Reply/question to bessie re Madge’s confirmation post ( I responded to this in another post). This is a valid question. [+1] However, note that Osie does not question my FoS of him that was in the same post. [-1]
Post 12 : Joke reply to the worst with a vote for him. [0]
Post 13 : Reply/joke to WakeMeUp. Second attempt of association with this game and WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [-1]
Post 14 : Reply/joke to the worst. [0]
Post 15 : Reply to WakeMeUp, game rules. [0]

Playstyle Clash, nothing alignment indicative.

Post 16 : Reply to bessie (I responded to this in another post). I like that Osie responded to my questions [+1], even if I find the answers suspicious (see here for reasons). [-1]

The "answers suspicious point" could be fair? I was legitimately mystified by Bessie though; alignments didn't really factor into things. But at this point bessie already had implied a strong scumread on me, so it's not really a core case point for her. The "prior to start of game" argument was a playstyle clash that was mostly from my end and that bessie didn't ever pursue as part of her scumread. This is part of the problem though. Bessie was never explaining her reasoning well. It was part of why most players were more likely to scumread her out of our back and forth. A PBPA could have been a chance to do so but she instead used it to mislabel 99% of what I posted as worthless and/or scummy.

Post 17 : Reply to BoomFrog. Information. [0]
Post 18 : The post I’m responding to now. Some legit comments [+1], some deflection (see above). [-1]
Post 19 : Unvote. Early town scum list [+1] with reasons. [+1] Re content of post:
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm Bessie shading me for "active lurking" when there were less than 40 posts since start of game and 4 out of 9 players (Heury/Boom/Moody/Sniper) hadn't really posted significant content is bugging me even more than her looking at posts prior to game start for alignment, but I could see this being trying to draw blood from a stone like I sometimes do.
Ok, you’re seriously trying to tell me that I can’t have a read on you for your content, that I’m only supposed to have a read on you in relation to everyone else?? I’m looking for scum, not looking for the scummiest. And I get the feel from your posts that you are looking for the scummiest, not looking for scum. [-1]

Heh, IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM??? [-1]

Since I sincerely hope (and choose to believe until told otherwise) that bessie's misrepresentations of me were just misinterpretation and not intentional gaslighting, this is further playstyle clash.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm Scumlean:
moody7277 - Just a ping off of their entrance; it feels a bit forced.
bessie - I'm paranoid that bessie appears to be, either intentionally or not, trying to do one of the standard styles I've seen from scum of taking small things and blowing them out of proportion to form a series of tunnels instead of trying to read people organically. She could just be drawing blood out of a stone, but I need to see more to feel comfortable with that sort of a read.

Vote: moody7277
You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]

As I mentioned above, this is actually the first legitimate reason to scumread me that bessie had all game. But it was never a core part of her case on me. If she had thrown back to that readlist and follow-up post even once, it would be one thing, but she never really did, because she didn't really catch it. She was just looking for ways to say "Osie bad".

I liked Moody’s entrance and had a town feel from it, however, if Osie is scum I will look to this post. Osie has no reason to put a serious vote down on Moody; it feels forced. It could be early distancing. [-1]

This isn't actually a separate point from the previous statement.

Post 20 : Semi offer to switch to bessie.
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:40 pm I'm more than happy to switch to bessie, but don't see it being useful to grow a wagon there until mid-Day if my overall gut judgment of their playstyle is correct.
Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]

See what I mentioned above.

Uggh I feel like I'm still playing.

I'mma go back to doing other tasks.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:52 am**

Good game all congrats to scum!

the worst wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:43 pm I think -- if this player list was more familiar with WMU and we could have gotten away with it without it being really obvious that one of us did it -- wmu would have been n1'd. I wasn't expecting to need to let bessie live past n1, and then also wasn't expecting to n2 her. she is pretty scary.

You played this spectacularly I’m kinda scared of you now too!

the worst wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:12 pm WMU is excellent, and terrifies me greatly.

+1, QFT, etc...

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:34 pm Mostly what I was saying throughout the game. Bessie's push felt extremely disingenuous. I felt that I was repeatedly having my words misrepresented, that I wasn't being engaged in conversation in good faith, that I was being gaslit, that there was a degree of just trying to make me personally look bad regardless of the game, and that Bessie hadn't really been sorting or explaining her reads with real reasoning. That she had just chosen me soon after the game had started and had said "I want to eliminate this person regardless of their alignment."

It felt like Bessie was open wolfing, regardless of either of our alignments. And considering that most of that was in Day 1, when my mindset/play is pretty much pure and the same across alignments, a hard tunnel in response to what felt like an extremely disingenuous push filled with misrepresentations is exactly what I would do as either alignment because it usually means that push is from scum. I think I've seen pushes that felt this way in at least about 8 other games and every time they were scum pushing on town.

I wasn’t intentionally doing any of these things. Perhaps you felt that way because you are seeing it through the filter of your role in the game.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:20 pm
Seven wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:36 pmRereading the first few pages again though, it seems to me that bessie just caught you redhanded and there wasn't anything you could do to get out of it. You were scum, she figured it out. Nothing after that was going to convince her otherwise.
Also this feels like a really generous interpretation of:

'This person's playstyle isn't the way I like to play the game so I'm going to call them out for not grouping their posts into one."

Since that's was actually all that bessie's "catch" amounted to.

No. I legit caught you on Page 1 Day 1, did analysis, and gave my many reasons. And its disingenuous of you chalk it up to luck. I called it as I saw it, yet you label everything I found scummy about you a “misrepresentation”? What?? Just because you don’t understand my playstyle and techniques doesn’t mean they’re not valid. And in this case successful.

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:32 pm And bessie proves once again why she is the GOAT.

: BESSIE GOAT.PNG (232.02 KiB) Viewed 3459 times

@LaserGuy I sure could have used you D2. You are the only player that consistently reads me correctly (moody’s in second place).

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:49 pm Results

TSS gains a one shot watcher ability

Boomfrog dies

Osie gets a message saying “You were visited by Madge in the night”

Huery get’s a result of Boomfrogs rolename is “With a Cherry on Top”, Boomfrog targeted the Snide Sniper, Boomfrog was targeted by yourself and a Cat Girl

Bessie gets a messaged The worst was targetted by no one last night.

N1 results should be “bessie gets messaged that Madge visited Osie”.

Shout outs later!

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:36 am**

bessie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:52 amNo. I legit caught you on Page 1 Day 1, did analysis, and gave my many reasons. And its disingenuous of you chalk it up to luck. I called it as I saw it, yet you label everything I found scummy about you a “misrepresentation”? What?? Just because you don’t understand my playstyle and techniques doesn’t mean they’re not valid. And in this case successful.

I didn't and wouldn't label everything as misrepresentation. Sorry about that being unclear. I labeled a lot of your responses as misrepresentation because even though I don't think it was intentional, you very often did not represent my posts in the meaning that was intended.

Nothing that you called me out for during the game that I had done on Page 1 Day 1 was alignment indicative.

I do believe that you may have semi-consciously (or at least not openly) noted a sense of nervousness/awkwardness about my early posting, and I do find it extremely impressive that you managed to distinguish that behavioural tell from general nerves with playing in a relatively new community for me. But I don't think you realized how to express that, which is likely part of why people (myself included) didn't find most (note: not all) of your side of things as credible.

I do think it's important to mention that for the comments from you and Madge about technical analysis, the vast majority of the analysis that happened and had to happen this game was pretty much purely behavioural. The closest things to technical analysis that happened all game was my team solve, which despite what people thought, wasn't at all forced, and the mass claim solving on Day 3.

bessie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:52 am I wasn’t intentionally doing any of these things. Perhaps you felt that way because you are seeing it through the filter of your role in the game.

Nah I had to keep reminding myself throughout the game after the questionnaire wall that I was the Mafia player and you were the Town player. I was legit mentally convinced that you were Mafia or SK until somewhere in the middle of Day 2.

The questionnaire wall was, as I have used it in several prior games (all of which happened to be town games), my way of saying "Here's me going through this ridiculous exercise to genuinely get you to show more solving thought process at the very least by answering some of these questions."

As I mentioned in an earlier post-game post, any town/scum game is almost entirely a town game for me until at least Night 1. Scumchat, Masonchat, Neighborhoods, etc, are primarily a way to prod other players while not being a host.

It's why WMU was unlikely to catch on to me until D2/D3, even though she's usually really solid at reading me having played a lot together.

I'm not devaluing your correct scumread on me. But I do think that you also had a visceral reaction to my playstyle regardless of alignment and that (unfortunately for everyone, but especially for town) took over how you expressed your read.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:54 am**

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:42 am
The Snide Sniper wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:38 pmConfirmed.
@Sniper - If people hadn't told me, I probably wouldn't have realized you were a newish player for a while, possibly into somewhere in late Day 2. I was rather paranoid of you towards the start. I think once you get your feet under you, you have a lot of potential to be a really solid player. It's all about building a process. I loved some of the "Why not?" moments from you. I look forward to seeing you around!

I'd love for you to elaborate a bit on this. What made you so paranoid of me, and what were some of the "why not" moments that you're talking about? I could really use some more precise feedback.

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