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We used to have a legendary player that could catch scum based on their confirmation posts. Someday I hope to ascend to his level.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pm I wouldn't usually consider confirmation posts to be part of the game, given that they are prior to when the host has declared the game to start. That said, in this context, it is understandable to do so since there is no explicit rule stating they cannot be used, and they were after the role PMs had been sent out. It's just not where I would expect people to be looking.
No, it is totally a “would I do this as scum” post. Your literally said “why the hell would I put it in the thread as a wolf?” And you should reread my entire reaction (an subsequent posts), not just the part you quoted. I’m not pointing out that you are putting notes in thread. I am accusing you of rolefishing.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pmNo, it's a legitimate question. I would assume... (goes and checks) and have checked and confirmed that "Players with chats can chat at any time.=" is in the OP. So if Mafia can chat at any time, why would they bother putting notes on claims in the thread?
Oh ok, here’s more of my response. So you’re saying that because you’re townreading Snide Sniper, you cant be rolefishing him? Please explain how one implies the other.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pmI noted that it might be a townie post. Especially with the information that Sniper is a newer player, I'm relatively townleaning them for that post.bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmWhy even note that it may be a soft claim unless you want to open discussion on it? The Snide Sniper is a newer player. Since you brought up the “would I do this as scum” argument, I will offer a response that I think the townie thing to do might be to ignore it and move on, not push for more information.
You only reply to cases, and not to player accusing you of being suspicious? Well I don’t do cases, however I will analyze your posts.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pmI noted it, but I don't bother going on the defensive in that way. It's a waste of time in my experience. If you had expressed a case, it would be one thing, but you haven't, so I'm waiting for you to actually put content behind the statement. If you don't, then that's also something to note.bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmInteresting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.
Ok, you’re seriously trying to tell me that I can’t have a read on you for your content, that I’m only supposed to have a read on you in relation to everyone else?? I’m looking for scum, not looking for the scummiest. And I get the feel from your posts that you are looking for the scummiest, not looking for scum. [-1]osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm Bessie shading me for "active lurking" when there were less than 40 posts since start of game and 4 out of 9 players (Heury/Boom/Moody/Sniper) hadn't really posted significant content is bugging me even more than her looking at posts prior to game start for alignment, but I could see this being trying to draw blood from a stone like I sometimes do.
Explain.
Explain.
You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm Scumlean:
moody7277 - Just a ping off of their entrance; it feels a bit forced.
bessie - I'm paranoid that bessie appears to be, either intentionally or not, trying to do one of the standard styles I've seen from scum of taking small things and blowing them out of proportion to form a series of tunnels instead of trying to read people organically. She could just be drawing blood out of a stone, but I need to see more to feel comfortable with that sort of a read.
Vote: moody7277
Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]
Yes. It appears Osie made a serious vote at the bottom of the previous page.
And again, I ask "Why would someone just put out there in the thread that they think that someone's softclaim is town as a form of rolefishing? How does that signify rolefishing?" Asking about it would be one thing. But I didn't ask about it. Expressing interest in it beyond just "This is townie" would be another. But I didn't. I literally just said "This is townie."
Again, this feels like an intentional misinterpretation of my posts. I said that "All I said in this post was that the post I read felt town indicative." That does not equate to "If I townread someone I can't rolefish them."
Yep!
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:06 amWell I don’t do cases, however I will analyze your posts.
Post 1 : Confirm. [0]
Post 2 : Active lurking, contentless post. First post of game. [0]
Post 3 : RVS. Making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post. [-1]
Post 4 : Since Osie denies this post contains a breadcrumb (see Posts 5 and 6) this is active lurking. Post for the sake of posting. [-1]
Post 5 : Denies Post 4 is a breadcrumb. [0]
Post 6 : Reply to the worst re Post 4, and buddying? [-1]
Post 7 : Rolefishing, opening the door to speculate on a possible Snide Sniper soft claim. Also making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post (related thoughts). [-1]
Post 8 : Inside joke to WakeMeUp. Also makes an early association with WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [Note I do not know what NUF is.] [-1]
Post 9 : Reply/joke to the worst. Possible buddying. [0]
Post 10 : Another double post that could have been part of the previous post. Ironically accuses the Worst of buddying WakeMeUp. [-1]
Post 11 : Reply/question to bessie re Madge’s confirmation post ( I responded to this in another post). This is a valid question. [+1] However, note that Osie does not question my FoS of him that was in the same post. [-1]
Post 12 : Joke reply to the worst with a vote for him. [0]
Post 13 : Reply/joke to WakeMeUp. Second attempt of association with this game and WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [-1]
Post 14 : Reply/joke to the worst. [0]
Post 15 : Reply to WakeMeUp, game rules. [0]
Post 16 : Reply to bessie (I responded to this in another post). I like that Osie responded to my questions [+1], even if I find the answers suspicious (see here for reasons). [-1]
Post 17 : Reply to BoomFrog. Information. [0]
Post 18 : The post I’m responding to now. Some legit comments [+1], some deflection (see above). [-1]
Post 19 : Unvote. Early town scum list [+1] with reasons. [+1] Re content of post:Ok, you’re seriously trying to tell me that I can’t have a read on you for your content, that I’m only supposed to have a read on you in relation to everyone else?? I’m looking for scum, not looking for the scummiest. And I get the feel from your posts that you are looking for the scummiest, not looking for scum. [-1]osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm Bessie shading me for "active lurking" when there were less than 40 posts since start of game and 4 out of 9 players (Heury/Boom/Moody/Sniper) hadn't really posted significant content is bugging me even more than her looking at posts prior to game start for alignment, but I could see this being trying to draw blood from a stone like I sometimes do.
Heh, IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM??? [-1]
Explain.
Explain.
You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm Scumlean:
moody7277 - Just a ping off of their entrance; it feels a bit forced.
bessie - I'm paranoid that bessie appears to be, either intentionally or not, trying to do one of the standard styles I've seen from scum of taking small things and blowing them out of proportion to form a series of tunnels instead of trying to read people organically. She could just be drawing blood out of a stone, but I need to see more to feel comfortable with that sort of a read.
Vote: moody7277
I liked Moody’s entrance and had a town feel from it, however, if Osie is scum I will look to this post. Osie has no reason to put a serious vote down on Moody; it feels forced. It could be early distancing. [-1]
Post 20 : Semi offer to switch to bessie.Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]
Post 21 : Completely rational question. Welcome to the paradox that is Madge. [+1]
We have, we played one game together as town but you were misyeeted D1 against my sole protests if I recall correctly. And you subbed in for scum in Vanilla Mafia but apparently decided to not catch up as it was a lot to catch up on and it was unlikely you could dig your slot out of it's hole, then you were eliminated by a redirected NE.
I'm going to nip this in the bud because I know Bessie and she won't convince you on this but her assessment of potential role fishing is legitimate. (Also importantly I won't get alignment info out of watching you two squabble about it, but it will flood the thread if not nipped)osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 amAnd again, I ask "Why would someone just put out there in the thread that they think that someone's softclaim is town as a form of rolefishing? How does that signify rolefishing?" Asking about it would be one thing. But I didn't ask about it. Expressing interest in it beyond just "This is townie" would be another. But I didn't. I literally just said "This is townie."
It feels like you wanted to see rolefishing so you're creating motivation where none exists.
Ok. You didn’t ask a direct question (Hey Sniper are you a BOMB??), however, you threw out an observation and tried to provoke a discussion (“ Softclaiming a killing role is... townie?”).osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am And again, I ask "Why would someone just put out there in the thread that they think that someone's softclaim is town as a form of rolefishing? How does that signify rolefishing?" Asking about it would be one thing. But I didn't ask about it. Expressing interest in it beyond just "This is townie" would be another. But I didn't. I literally just said "This is townie."
Deflection.
The more you pretend that you don’t know what rolefishing is, the more convinced I am that I am correct.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 amAgain, this feels like an intentional misinterpretation of my posts. I said that "All I said in this post was that the post I read felt town indicative." That does not equate to "If I townread someone I can't rolefish them."
First two misrepresentations are free. Another one, not so much.
Ok. How very townie of you.
Hahaha, so... I’m scumreading you, so it must be malice, not simply wrong? Which one of us is the one creating malice in other people’s posts, and which one of us is trying to figure out the game? [I don’t know what PBPA is.]osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am Ah I see you are trying to do a malignment wall, where a player, typically scum, goes into a PBPA another player's ISO with the intention of reading as much negative intent as they possibly can into the posts, with a few positives thrown in here and there for appearances. Here's the thing: I'm practiced at that. I used to do that a lot. And then realized, in part from feedback from several people, that assuming malice in people's posts, especially when it wasn't there, was not only not a worthwhile strategy but also wasn't very fun.
And I’mma gonna quote this post when you flip scum.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am The thing with a malignment wall is that it's not only a gish-gallop, but it's a non-productive gish-gallop, since the logic behind it is intrinsically fallacious; it's irrational. So it's not really worth going through it point by point. And it often frustrates the hell out of the irrational player to just be dismissed as "you went into someone's posts with an intention for bias, and congrats, you succeeded at your bias." But that's all a malignment wall is. So as dismissive as it is, I'mma just handwave it away for what it is.
Nice you found a reason to move your serious vote off of moody.
Yep it’s over. Where are your snap reads?
More misrep. I wasn't "trying to provoke a discussion". I was stating, very straight-forward, that I thought it might be townie, but I wasn't certain. Given what I'd seen of Sniper (and that prior to anyone saying anything in the thread about it, I thought they were one of the most experienced players on the site, an impression which takes some time to shift away from), I would figure that they would understand that this is just "I find that post townie" and not "Here's an invitation to claim their role", as any reasonable person would not assume it to be the latter.
No u.
I'm not pretending to not know what rolefishing is. Again, you're misrepresenting my posts. I made clear that the intention of my post had nothing to do with finding out the role, something which you "brushed off as just wrong". My intention. What, are you gaslighting me now? I know what my intention was. I also know that regardless of it being myself or someone else, you have come into this discussion with a bunch of false assumptions and any time it's been pointed out that your assumptions are false, you've handwaved it away.bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amThe more you pretend that you don’t know what rolefishing is, the more convinced I am that I am correct.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 amAgain, this feels like an intentional misinterpretation of my posts. I said that "All I said in this post was that the post I read felt town indicative." That does not equate to "If I townread someone I can't rolefish them."
First two misrepresentations are free. Another one, not so much.
Interesting how whenever you reply to me you brush of my content as just wrong, and you don’t even try to figure out my point of view.
I haven't worried too much about people throwing "FoS Osie" or a naked "Vote Osie" into the thread for many games now.
No. Again, I didn't say that. Again, you're misrepresenting my words. In this case you're even explicitly stating that you don't know what I meant, and that you're applying a meaning of your own construction.bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amHahaha, so... I’m scumreading you, so it must be malice, not simply wrong? Which one of us is the one creating malice in other people’s posts, and which one of us is trying to figure out the game? [I don’t know what PBPA is.]osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am Ah I see you are trying to do a malignment wall, where a player, typically scum, goes into a PBPA another player's ISO with the intention of reading as much negative intent as they possibly can into the posts, with a few positives thrown in here and there for appearances. Here's the thing: I'm practiced at that. I used to do that a lot. And then realized, in part from feedback from several people, that assuming malice in people's posts, especially when it wasn't there, was not only not a worthwhile strategy but also wasn't very fun.
Ya know, after over a decade of forum moderation, I can pretty much tell that a person won't learn anything from me saying "What you're doing is wrong/unenjoyable/illogical" when they repeatedly double down. It's like talking to a typical anti-vaxxer or Q-Anon believer. They're convinced that they cannot ever be in the wrong as a person, even when acting obnoxious and illogical in the process of trying to make their argument.bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amAnd I’mma gonna quote this post when you flip scum.osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am The thing with a malignment wall is that it's not only a gish-gallop, but it's a non-productive gish-gallop, since the logic behind it is intrinsically fallacious; it's irrational. So it's not really worth going through it point by point. And it often frustrates the hell out of the irrational player to just be dismissed as "you went into someone's posts with an intention for bias, and congrats, you succeeded at your bias." But that's all a malignment wall is. So as dismissive as it is, I'mma just handwave it away for what it is.
What serious vote? A vote with less than 50 posts in the game on someone who had made one post? My vote for you is my first serious vote this game.
I was not aware of TSS's experience level and given that I thought they were one of the most experienced players in the thread, I thought that they would know that was not remotely intended as rolefishing and instead, as I've clearly expressed multiple times, as a statement of a townping in regards to evaluating their alignment.boomfrog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:33 amI'm going to nip this in the bud because I know Bessie and she won't convince you on this but her assessment of potential role fishing is legitimate. (Also importantly I won't get alignment info out of watching you two squabble about it, but it will flood the thread if not nipped)
Your post to TSS included a guess as to what he was crumbing, that it was a killing role. Done casually like that opens up TSS to confirm or deny that he was crumbing a killing role. Wolf!osie gets info on the category of town!TSS's role and it can look unintentional. Do you not see that discussing someone's role at all opens up the chance to leak info?
@TSS obviously you should make zero comment about your role or if you were making a crumb. Don't confirm or deny.
"The worst or second best?"boomfrog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:25 amWe have, we played one game together as town but you were misyeeted D1 against my sole protests if I recall correctly. And you subbed in for scum in Vanilla Mafia but apparently decided to not catch up as it was a lot to catch up on and it was unlikely you could dig your slot out of it's hole, then you were eliminated by a redirected NE.
Anyway, I know you have the chops to either be the worst or the second best, so I'm not too concerned, I'm already confident about where we will end up. But I wanted to know what wmu and The Worst think.
Btw, my vote was not a random vote.
I'd call this like, the most deadass on-brand osie of all the deadass on-brand osies.boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:04 pm Woo! Game on!
Vote osieorb18
Wmu and The Worst, you both seem familiar with Osie's meta. Are they always like this? Or do they usually play more townie?
Also, as to maximum post count, if you post lots of low calorie posts then busy players will have trouble keeping up with the game. Do with that information what you will.
RL note: over had unexpected family stuff come up. I should be fine but will be more sporadic in posting.
Could you expand a bit on why that struck you as alignment indicativebessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmInteresting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.
"Out of rvs" is such a flexible term right
Why unvote here? Does osie vs. bessie not interest you at all? What do you think of madge or boom?
More interesting? Maybe. Definitely less enjoyable. I suppose this is probably the second or third cringiest, most blatant series of misrepresentations formed into a push on me I've seen outside of games with the twins.
I make 5 posts in the thread, one of which is asking if she's considering a pre-game post to be alignment-relevant. I ignore the naked "FoS" statement as it's not important. Especially that early, as far as I know, it's a joke.
"Osie's not sorting."
"Osie's active lurking" - I'd had the most posts as someone being social in RVS but also trying to shift us relatively quickly out of RVS.
Again, I respond quickly, thoroughly, and entirely.bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmWhy even note that it may be a soft claim unless you want to open discussion on it? The Snide Sniper is a newer player. Since you brought up the “would I do this as scum” argument, I will offer a response that I think the townie thing to do might be to ignore it and move on, not push for more information.
Interesting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.