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Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:33 pm**

"What do you think Bessie's alignment is? Why do you think that?"
Scumlean still, but less scummy than before, as per post at top of page.

"Ok, what are you trying to convince me of here? "
I was hoping you'd come out fervently pro or anti bessie.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:02 pm**

Votecount 1.8

1. Boomfrog
2. Wam
3. Swiss
4. Mak: Fonti, Seven, Wam, Moody
5. Fred
6. Madge
7. Seven: JC, Swiss
8. moody
9. JC:
10. Fonti
11. bessie:
12. Sabrar

Not voting:
Boomfrog, Fred, Madge, Mak, Bessie, Sabrar

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

With 12 players, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.
The deadline for Day 1 is Wednesday 6th, at 11:59PM EST

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:08 pm**

L-3 and we do need to hammer, it is not majority rules.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:11 pm**

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:43 amRequest deadline extension.

Reminder that a majority is needed to vote this in.

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:13 pm**

request feafline extension

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:14 pm**

Or even

request deadline extension

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:30 pm**

request deadline extension

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:33 pm**

sure why not

request deadline extension

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:58 pm**

Swiss wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:33 pm sure why not

request deadline extension

My view is that there are several players that I want to hear more from before the EOD.

Short list off the top.of my head:
Madge
Fred
JC

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:58 pm**

Deadline extension vote 1:

In favor: Seven, Wan, Sabrar, Swiss

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes for deadline extension for a majority.

The deadline for Day 1 is Wednesday 6th, at 11:59PM EST

Posted: **Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:46 pm**

fontisian wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:32 pm Seven, hey my dude, I feel kind of bored with you this game. I'm not used to that feeling, and I'm wondering if it means you're scum. What's up?

I’m curious to see if bessie has an explanation for this.

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:18 am**

More time is better than less time.

Request deadline extension

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:53 am**

bessie:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

D0
post 1: Thinks Janitored flips would be town, short bios of the players, found my nightmare game, some extracurricular discussion
post 2: disagrees with Swiss about whether D0 should have scumhunting, piqued about Swiss asking about the replacement, votes rolecop
post 3: answer to BF: would pick cop and doc for town as scum
post 4: apology for not answering him earlier
post 5: further discussion re replacement, bios supposed to be NAI, didn't realize scum get to pick 3 perqs, decides on Vig for 3rd

As I understand the concept, this post has a townslip in it. Did not vote for second scum perq, but since that got hammered quickly, she may not have had an opportunity

D1
post 6: Says rolecop will be moot due to powerclaims, upset by Seven's interpretation of her reading of the setup, answers Sabrar about cop+Doc, says would take too long to be useful to town, suspicious of passive Fred, doesn't like Swiss's vote
post 7: Seven suspiciously ignorant of roles
post 8: "Doth protest too much"
post 9: explanation of post 8, wants Fred to explain his read of her and wam
post 10: still asking Fred about his read of her, not impressed with Seven, answering Seven's concern about her Janitor explanation, uses Foses to keep vote serious
post 11: D1 crucial to solve, still has nebulous curiosity about Swiss's replacement ask, other jabs about her playstyle by Swiss, wants Mak to expand read on Fred.

This last post is another way bessie and Madge are opposites. I think I found who she's tunnelling this game. Other content looks comfortably town. Final score +4

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:19 am**

Request extension
Vote Bessie

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:22 am**

boomfrog

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

D0
post 1: previous player experience
post 2: typo correction
post 3: addendum to post 1
post 4: addendum to post 1
post 5: wants to know what people would pick as scum, wants some players to post later
post 6: mod question
post 7: picks at slight difference in wam's response
post 8: also wants the same players from post 5 to hold on comments

based on Sabrar and Seven being included, I think BF thinks these are the more chameleon like players

post 9: releases them for other discussion
post 10: funny post about Madge replacing
post 11: asks me about why there are two types of docs and about vig

I think I missed the point of the first question because I only knew about the regular type of doctor previously

post 12: follow up on wam's setup spec
post 13: gives his reasons for powers to give scum, then votes rolecop and vengeful
post 14: kudos for fonti's math about scum powers, different style for clearing
post 15: question Sabrar about priors for his analysis
post 16: fluff
post 17: miffed bessie being short about BF's question
post 18: wants to know if JC is sarcastic about Swiss post
post 19: explains inside joke about Madge for Swiss
post 20: weak doc worse off with RB
post 21: explanation to Swiss about Janitor
post 22: wants bessie to expand on missing third town perq and her choices, with some allowance for her schedule
post 23: reasoning in favor of Vengful Mafia
post 24: response to Seven about post 23, RB makes weak doc worse
post 25: asks wam about his choice of scum perq

Nothing D1

All of the D0 analysis looks honest, and seems from town POV. Final score +2

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:28 am**

Starting my Google Doc now, so help me God.

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:46 am**

Swiss wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:24 pmWhy would you do this? Is your objective to play anti Swiss, instead of pro town?

You know, I'm something of a Frenchman myself. (sorry terrible joke but I could not hold back)

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:15 am**

Daily bark!

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:43 am
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:52 am
Seven wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:59 am As for number 2, I have no explanation. Would you say that you having missed that is out of character?
Yes.
So what happened?

I’ve been busy and I missed it.

Swiss wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 8:54 am
Wam wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 2:40 pm Wam - disagree but I'm normally a scum lean day 1 irrespective of alignment
Need other people to weigh in here.

This is true. Wam has a scummy meta and is often eliminated D1.

Swiss wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:06 am You cover off, quite reasonably, other objections.

This however I still hate. You won't "let" me question Sabrar with a quick one-liner because I haven't responded with an indepth post to you yet. Yet you knew I was abroad with low activity posting via mobile. Why should my short term inability to post in depth to you stop me from posting a one liner to others? Doesn't add up.

Pettiness. I think scum!bessie likely to be more careful to want to appear reasonable. That or it's just an opportunity to focus on a Swiss-Bessie argument and exempts you from posting and engaging with others.

I don’t recall forbidding you to question others, nor did I state conditions under any circumstance. I encourage discussion and anything that encourages discussion. And I classify content as I wish, however it helps me track my thoughts. This is very interesting that you are so discombobulated over an FoS. FoS.

fontisian wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:32 pm I have seen Bessie be inflexible regardless of her alignment. I think she's the kind of player who gets locked into feelings.

This is interesting and I don’t think I have ever been described as a person with feelings. My alleged inflexibleness is usually attributed to other factors.

Oh we can vote on this?

Request deadline extension.

Note to mods: on the old forum weekends traditionally counted as half time, because many players do not play on the weekend.

Seven wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:46 pm
fontisian wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:32 pm Seven, hey my dude, I feel kind of bored with you this game. I'm not used to that feeling, and I'm wondering if it means you're scum. What's up?
I’m curious to see if bessie has an explanation for this.

@fonti, I know Seven really enjoys playing with you, and has been hoping for a while that you would join a game. He also considers you an extraordinarily sharp player and scumhunter. If he is avoiding engaging with you, perhaps there is a reason.

[like WTF anyway?]

moody7277 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:53 am This last post is another way bessie and Madge are opposites. I think I found who she's tunnelling this game. Other content looks comfortably town. Final score +4

No I’m not tunneling anyone yet. It just appears I am tunneling Swiss because he has engaged with me the most.

Freddino18 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 2:19 am Request extension
Vote Bessie

Splendid! Fred, can you answer the following open question?

bessie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:52 am
Freddino18 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:10 am Wow that was way off. Guess it was Wam and Fonti for voting Godfather and Janitor. I know I had a reason for doubting you but now I have no clue why. Tight for time right now, will read back through today or tomorrow with more specific questioning
How is this coming along? Did you figure out why you suspect me?

More later, after Fred works out a reason for his vote.

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:16 am**

fontisian

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

D0
post 1: intro post
post 2: devil's advocate about Janitor, RB+Vengeful bad, RB+RC also bad, janitor+vengeful interesting

Sabrar's right, this post should have triggered me so bad

post 3: worry about GoJoe
post 4: Insists on thinking in pairs re scum perqs, a few more examples.
post 5: fluff
post 6: no reads before scum assign roles

Meaning scum would give the goodies to the towniest looking scum

post 7: argument about post 6

basically what I figured before I re-read this post

post 8: math analysis about why vengeful mafiate is not terrible to give scum
post 9: votes Janitor and Vengeful
post 10: sees most other people don't play mathematically
post 11: unvotes Janitor based on rolecop being chosen, prefers vengeful for second, wants to start scumhunting
post 12: votes Vengeful

The Janitor issue seems to be a matter of principle for him, even if my experience says different. He's also eager to get started on the meat of the game (Cynical View wonders if he's trying to look too eager)

D1
post 13: Asking Mak about their poke about fonti being okay with RC
post 14: Retraction once fonti sees it was about their Janitor stance
post 15: Asks Mak about wanting to give scum same roles they'd want as scum
post 16: Apology to Sabrar about cutting him off for voting
post 17: Curious about Fred's term for RB, like's JC's post, asks Seven about previous playthrough of this game re scum perqs, Mak doing theater about reading roles, speculation on wam-Mak team
post 18: circles back to BF's D0 question, wants to know BF's results
post 19: wants Fred to loosen up on schedule
post 20: credits wam with townslip
post 21: votes Mak

I was wondering how post 20 affected his view of Mak considering his spec of a wam-Mak team earlier, but that post pretty much answered my question

post 22: surmises Swiss and Mak anti-aligned
post 23: asks if scum!Madge would elim PR
post 24: experience with flip-less games
post 25: partially answered by Seven about question in post 17
post 26: response to Mak about answering post 17, confused about Mak's vote on fonti for being confused by Mak's posts
post 27: felt they were getting too emotional
post 28: appreciates Mak's clarification, but still thinks the analysis is lacking

fonti trying to get a more solid foundation for his read on Mak looks good

post 29: wants more interaction with Seven, wants Swiss to make a case on someone he does find scummy
post 30: thinks Sabrar should have better reason than love of math to townread fonti
post 31: agrees to look at Swiss's case on bessie
post 32: thinks Sabrar found a townslip with his interchanging of Janitor and Jailer
post 33: disagrees with Swiss's point about bessie's attitude, saying she has some points of inflexibility

This is true, I have seen it

post 34: fluff
post 35: terminology clarification
post 36: wants Swiss's actual read on bessie

If I put aside his initial interest in including Janitor as a scum perq as reflecting a different suite of experience, I'm liking the analysis and interactions. Final score +2

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:37 am**

Fred

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

D0
post 1: intro post
post 2: calls RB "dick move", votes for it anyway, also GF
post 3: cites Millerizer game
post 4: terminology question
post 5: dismissive of the term FoS

Seems to be a common sentiment

post 6: shocked at power of GF, unvotes
post 7: question about Janitor power, also mod question about it
post 8: scum!Fred would pick w doc/vig/cop for town, want GF and Janitor with some explanation, thinks scum would give scummiest looking scum Vengeful, votes for vengeful
post 9: thinks vengeful can be countered, doesn't like RC+RB

D1
post 10: wants abbreviations explained, waiting to develop reads
post 11: explains bessie's video post, wam and bessie or wam and Madge scum
post 12: reevaluation based on who actually voted for Janitor
post 13: says he read the role spoilers, against text walls
post 14: against text walls
post 15: piqued by Mak's town read of Fred
post 16: votes bessie
post 17: fluff
post 18: french fluff

Some interesting power analysis, seems like he went from neutral to anti Janitor based on general sentiment. Final score -0.5

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:52 am**

Swiss wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 10:05 am
Seven wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:43 am I think it's odd that the two roles you found least threatening are the two roles you would hope for as scum. Fonti and Sabrar aren't misinterpreting anything. Considering which roles are the least threatening implies consideration of the roles town might have.
FF respond to this please.

I am trying so hard to care about this and just don't.

Let's wagon someone.

vote seven

its literally this simple

I think in a vacuum janitor and rolecop are the strongest scum roles

Boom specifically asked us what which power roles we would pick for town if we were scum. I gave that list and then stated that in the event that I was scum and gave town a specific set of PRs, I would hope for atleast one of godfather and/or roleblocker because those two roles give specifically good answers to the town PRs Id prefer to be up against as scum

I am honestly shocked that so many people are having trouble parsing how these are distinctly different lenses through which to asses the PRs, matchups literally matter a lot

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:10 am**

Request Extension

open to being wrong on bessie but idk slot feels normal to me

boom def conspicuously absent, seven way less engaged than normal, Sab feels off

need to reread tonight before possible tomorrow deadline and look at the rolecop voting wagon

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:22 am**

Deadline extension vote 2:

In favor: Seven, Wan, Sabrar, Swiss, Moody, Freddino, Bessie

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes for deadline extension for a majority.

A majority has been achieved, the new deadline for Day 1 is Thursday 7th, at 11:59PM EST

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:03 am**

i agree with the vote for mak but don't want to risk hammering or anything after the disasterous performanc on d0.

i will not be on for the deadline itself but i can be around to vote to prevent a NoLim

Posted: **Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:36 am**

Vote: Moody

fontisian wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:37 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 10:43 am
Makhaira wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 11:53 pm do you believe anything about this alternative "mathy" take on the game strategy is alignment indicative in any way? You say its a fresh perspective which you "like." Is that meant to convey you enjoyed the perspective from an academic standpoint or you think this type of perspective on the game, or even as just applied to this setup, is town alignment indicative? If so why
I enjoyed it as a pure math-exercise but I also think it is alignment-indicative, as it goes contrary to scum's usual count of 'how many townies do we need to misyeet'.
Interesting.

I think my view of the math part is the same across ganes, regardless of my alignment, because it's actually complimentary with scum thoughts on misyeets.

I think this is a poor reason to townread me.

I agree. This post from Sabrar is scummy. You could have easily made that post as mafia. It's the sort of post I would have made if I was scumpushing for Vengeful.

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:08 pm L-3 and we do need to hammer, it is not majority rules.

*not plurality.

Majority is when you need a hammer.

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:58 pm
Swiss wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 4:33 pm sure why not

request deadline extension
My view is that there are several players that I want to hear more from before the EOD.

Short list off the top.of my head:
Madge
Fred
JC

Did you answer why Moody is in your no-yeet pile? It's pretty obvious to me that he's scum at this point. Also why is it that you town read me? That's weird.

bessie wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:15 am
Seven wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 9:46 pm
fontisian wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2023 1:32 pm Seven, hey my dude, I feel kind of bored with you this game. I'm not used to that feeling, and I'm wondering if it means you're scum. What's up?
I’m curious to see if bessie has an explanation for this.
@fonti, I know Seven really enjoys playing with you, and has been hoping for a while that you would join a game. He also considers you an extraordinarily sharp player and scumhunter. If he is avoiding engaging with you, perhaps there is a reason.

[like WTF anyway?]

Fonti's interpretation of my play is correct, though not the conclusion that I'm scum. I was curious to see if you knew the source of their impression. Also to clarify, I don't think I've been avoiding engaging with Fonti. Do you get that impression?

moody7277 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2023 3:16 am fontisian

Spoiler (Show/Hide)
D0
post 1: intro post
post 2: devil's advocate about Janitor, RB+Vengeful bad, RB+RC also bad, janitor+vengeful interesting

Sabrar's right, this post should have triggered me so bad

post 3: worry about GoJoe
post 4: Insists on thinking in pairs re scum perqs, a few more examples.
post 5: fluff
post 6: no reads before scum assign roles

Meaning scum would give the goodies to the towniest looking scum

post 7: argument about post 6

basically what I figured before I re-read this post

post 8: math analysis about why vengeful mafiate is not terrible to give scum
post 9: votes Janitor and Vengeful
post 10: sees most other people don't play mathematically
post 11: unvotes Janitor based on rolecop being chosen, prefers vengeful for second, wants to start scumhunting
post 12: votes Vengeful

The Janitor issue seems to be a matter of principle for him, even if my experience says different. He's also eager to get started on the meat of the game (Cynical View wonders if he's trying to look too eager)

D1
post 13: Asking Mak about their poke about fonti being okay with RC
post 14: Retraction once fonti sees it was about their Janitor stance
post 15: Asks Mak about wanting to give scum same roles they'd want as scum
post 16: Apology to Sabrar about cutting him off for voting
post 17: Curious about Fred's term for RB, like's JC's post, asks Seven about previous playthrough of this game re scum perqs, Mak doing theater about reading roles, speculation on wam-Mak team
post 18: circles back to BF's D0 question, wants to know BF's results
post 19: wants Fred to loosen up on schedule
post 20: credits wam with townslip
post 21: votes Mak

I was wondering how post 20 affected his view of Mak considering his spec of a wam-Mak team earlier, but that post pretty much answered my question

post 22: surmises Swiss and Mak anti-aligned
post 23: asks if scum!Madge would elim PR
post 24: experience with flip-less games
post 25: partially answered by Seven about question in post 17
post 26: response to Mak about answering post 17, confused about Mak's vote on fonti for being confused by Mak's posts
post 27: felt they were getting too emotional
post 28: appreciates Mak's clarification, but still thinks the analysis is lacking

fonti trying to get a more solid foundation for his read on Mak looks good

post 29: wants more interaction with Seven, wants Swiss to make a case on someone he does find scummy
post 30: thinks Sabrar should have better reason than love of math to townread fonti
post 31: agrees to look at Swiss's case on bessie
post 32: thinks Sabrar found a townslip with his interchanging of Janitor and Jailer
post 33: disagrees with Swiss's point about bessie's attitude, saying she has some points of inflexibility

This is true, I have seen it

post 34: fluff
post 35: terminology clarification
post 36: wants Swiss's actual read on bessie

If I put aside his initial interest in including Janitor as a scum perq as reflecting a different suite of experience, I'm liking the analysis and interactions. Final score +2

Bruh. Read their intro post again.

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