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AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:10 am System.out.println("

Referring to "Things I Like" mafia, Bessie linked the thread a bit ago.

");

I still have a dedicated sub processor analyzing how Fonti slipped through my grasp D3 in that game...

Btw, I encourage everyone new to these forums to use the gojoe thread. Be sure not to read any spoilers, but it's fun to diary your thoughts for the end of the game. Or talk at the spectators.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:28 am System.out.println("

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:08 am Adum since you're here I just want to clarify now that I am no longer under the corruption of cyber-pharmaceuticals.

I hold zero ill will towards you. I was salty for a while, but the game was so long ago, I don't even remember the details. Additionally, we are only now reconnecting after many years, and I think we are different people now. I've much enjoyed your presence and content in the discord server since you joined and seeing you play these last two games. While it is possible that I have biases toward your play (we all have unconscious biases), I assure you that I don't hold any conscious negative feelings about your play or capabilities.

I'm not a fan of how you replaced out when you were about to be lynched, it's one of a couple of mafia moves that really stuck with me and while I enjoyed the game overall it definitely contributed to me taking a break from mafia.

That said, it's no excuse for me to be rude to you for something that happened so long ago and it doesn't mean I have a problem with you as a person for it.

However, my analysis wasn't because I think you hate me or something. I was tunneling you extremely hard that game, for reasons I considered justified. I can't know for sure whether I'd play the same way today, but my point was because you were a target of me being really relentlessly on you when I was wrong seems to loom really large over your understanding of my play even if the details of the game aren't necessarily fresh in your mind and that realization was essential to understanding where you were coming from. Having an imperfect understanding of my meta isn't a personal failing.

Btw, you said it "wasn't because I don't understand the difference between anti-town and scum", mind walking me through your thought process then on your initial read of me as scum?

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:13 am

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:07 am System.out.println("
Also, Seven and Bessy, which of you was responsible for beginning the game by talking in Tamarian?Because Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

");

Children of Tama U+1F60A

Sokath, his eyes uncovered

");

Oh, I'm truly sorry to hear that. I'm also sorry for my general assholery in the past. For the record, there were other factors that played into why I replaced out that aren't necessary to go into. But I'm sorry how it impacted you and hope you can forgive me.

With regard to my thought process, you're correct that my impression was that town-adum would find my behavior suspicious and vote me for it. What is incorrect is that because I think this, that I believe you are incapable of telling the difference between anti-town and scum. I don't think those two things are linked at all.

My profile of you is entirely based on Sorcerer's 11 mafia and I had predicted town-you would vote me in a similar fashion to your Mak vote here: viewtopic.php?p=47732#p47732

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:42 am Btw, I encourage everyone new to these forums to use the gojoe thread. Be sure not to read any spoilers, but it's fun to diary your thoughts for the end of the game. Or talk at the spectators.

This!

system.out.println("

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:48 am
Oh, I'm truly sorry to hear that. I'm also sorry for my general assholery in the past. For the record, there were other factors that played into why I replaced out that aren't necessary to go into. But I'm sorry how it impacted you and hope you can forgive me.

I appreciate you apologizing, and thanks for telling me more context but don't worry about it, the past is in the past.

My profile of you is entirely based on Sorcerer's 11 mafia and I had predicted town-you would vote me in a similar fashion to your Mak vote here: viewtopic.php?p=47732#p47732

Gonna have to walk me through what element of that post you thought would get that reaction and why, cause nothing in your post reads remotely connectable to the thought process that triggered that sorc post.

If you're talking about the vig thing and comparing it to trying to get Freddino to claim, I instantly knew it was a joke and referencing Bessie's tendancy to tunnel Somi.

"):

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:49 am

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 5:42 am Btw, I encourage everyone new to these forums to use the gojoe thread. Be sure not to read any spoilers, but it's fun to diary your thoughts for the end of the game. Or talk at the spectators.

This!

Double this.

VOTE: Laserguy May not be my final vote, but just in case a third vote comes my way.

Interesting, i didn’t mean for it to be a joke, I meant for it to be a non-committal threat.

System.out.println("

Ok, I posted there. I just get really nervous that I'll accidentally open a current spoiler and have to replace out. I still think of that one time somebody revealed role info to me in 2011 and I had to replace out of one of J's games that I was playing really well in.");

Seven wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 9:03 pm

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:38 pm

Seven wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:32 am What do you mean by very towny?

Beneficial to the town or alignment indicative?

It is beneficial for town, which is alignment indicative for bessie

If she plays in a way that is beneficial to town as either alignment, how is it alignment indicative?

You’re saying her posting style in mafia is beneficial, thus she is town. It does not make any sense . Under what circumstance do you identify her as scum?

@HEURY

system.out.println("

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 6:25 am Interesting, i didn’t mean for it to be a joke, I meant for it to be a non-committal threat.

Ok, either way I didn't see it as a serious vig claim.

I also thought you were a different person who I had no way of gauging how sophisticated a player they were, because I had no meta knowledge. Since it was your first post with substance I couldn't really gauge your play sophistication that way, which was central to my argument.

Even if I saw it as serious, arbitrarily claiming for no reason isn't scummy, it's bad play and anti-town sure, but given I was playing with somebody I only remember modding my games that would've just made me think "oh, I guess this is why they never played".

The other thing is, I didn't like Mak's rationale for why freddino was scummy instead of just a weak player (sorry Freddino if you read this) which was also central to not liking the play.

Demanding a slot claim in a setup with a lot of town nightpower when that slot isn't an imminent lynch I'd argue generally lends towards scum interests and suggests a scum mentality.

But one thing I learned from the game is there are times that a even a strong townie legitimately can believe it's the right call. I still don't think it was objectively the right call in that game state, but they were scum anyway so in the end all good.

Those situations just don't share any of the attributes I used to decide that Mak had a scummy mentality towards the game and I again can only assume that your interpretation of my thought process in sorc is colored, sorry Seven.

"):

boomfrog wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 7:54 pm

JC_DADDY25 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 3:45 amHello there.

Let us know about how far you've read in the thread. Feel free to throw in reactions to things even if they are from much farther back in the game. just quote something and say, "I've read up to here so far, but this is interesting because...X "

I'm on page 10 now, this post actually, and while it may be that I've been up for 20 hours but quite a bit of things look like pulling at strings to get reactions, but nothings unraveling yet. Jumped from 11 pages to 16 today though, so people are keeping busy.

somitomi wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 6:37 pmWhy the word Peculiar?

I ask that because it seems like Zen is using a buzzword to make you look bad for missing a detail. I actually find your reads list to be mostly substantial for now.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:59 pmCause I was wrong and thought seven was xivii. New analysis, Zen is salty about a past game.

Why is that your analysis here? I was re-reading, and with the perspective that Zen is scum, I'm wondering why you conclude this. I don't think Zen was pushing you genuinely, yet it also doesn't seem personal. What's your read on Zen, with reasoning.

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 5:16 amIt's not specifically that I find Bessie towny. It's that she's following her typical D1 meta that I can see so don't see any reason to scum read her at this point. She has yet to post a woof grrr list though.

I like the tone in this post, and I agree with the observation. Also you forgot to factor in Adum. Thoughts on him? Also, why do you town read Zen? Really walk me through that one. I want to make sure you get that one right.

somitomi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:29 amHeury: made kind of odd reads and somehow all related to bessie. I don't normally do this on D1, but this is kind of an associative read

Then don't. Why would you start this game. His posts this game are mirroring sorcerer mafia where he was town.

madge wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:20 am* Zeniba seemed to imply that they're not voting for heury anymore but didn't tell me who they actually are voting so I will not verify this unless zeniba doesn't change votes at end of game.

Zeniba is voting for Moody.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:14 am@Ranmaru[/b] I've noticed that while you talked about how I was read by other people and it factored into your reads of them you haven't actually given a read of me, what do you think of my slot?

In the last game I didn't have a good handle on you, and I waited to sort you due to that difficulty, and I was doing the same here. At the moment, you haven't pinged me, but I am wondering about your read on Zen as mentioned above. Also my posting has not been surface level. Why do you say this?

Seven wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 8:10 pm Fact 1: bessie feels bad about constantly tunneling somi and him being a day 1 elimination
Fact 2: bessie has stated an unwillingness to vote somitomi today due to Fact 1

Argument 1
Premise 1: If bessie is town, Fact 1 would not prevent her from voting somi
Supplementary Premise: If somi is not mafia, mafia-bessie would indeed avoid pushing him Day 1 on the basis of Fact 1.

Conclusion 1: bessie is mafia

This case is flawed because in Sorcerer Mafia she had a bad vibe on Somi but didn't feel it was enough for a Day 1 vote, so yes as town she would not vote Somi D1. This isn't convincing nor do I feel you actually believe Bessie is mafia here. I also am aware that you are known to try to miselim people as mafia with cases that are misinformation.

moody7277 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:26 amSeven's post here looks damn solid. My brain is doing the hamster wheel thing trying to refute it, but remembering reading her vow about somi to go along with Seven's logic and facts is having me tell the touchie-feelie part to shut up, ding her about a point on the read, and note that gets her close to my "nervous if bessie is only at +2" condition.

It's not solid. It's misinformation. What are your thoughts on the case with these two quotes in mind:

bessie wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 2:15 amsomitomi – I get a bad vibe but nothing super scummy yet. Vote: Freddino18

Seven wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:36 pm Vote Count (Final)
Somi (4) - Heury, Doop, EGW, Mak
Mak (2) - Adum, somi
bessie (1) - Fred
Fred (1) - bessie
Moody (1) - Maven
Maven (1) - Moody

Not Voting (1): PJ

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to eliminate.

History

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

doo > fre
heu > som
egw > moo
moo > heu
mav > doo
fre > bes
adu x sev
mak > adu
doo > adu

mav > moo
mak > fre
doo > bes
egw > doo
adu > mak
egw > unv

bes > fre

egw > bes
moo > mav
som > mak

mak > bes
doo > som
mak > som
egw > som

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:45 pmI don't based my read off of you on things like whether or not you do confirmation analysis. I think EGW is incorrect that this is alignment indicative for you. As we've discussed before, my way of reading you is usually more related to tone/energy levels + black magic.

Yet you said that my critique wasn't entirely invalid at the time. In what way did you mean this, and how did it factor in to alignment? (Or lack there of)

bessie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:51 amI have been unusually busy this week and at the time of this writing I am still behind... four pages. I’ll try to catch up now and start posting organizing my thoughts. I’m almost ready for my first list.

Fair enough. I look forward to the list.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 12:08 amThing is for me trying to figure her out, this game is moving a lot faster, so it makes more sense. I'd like to compare some faster moving games where she was town so I can get a clearer read.

It is moving very fast. You know, the second reason why I have been trying to post less is due to this. I realized I was making it harder for everyone else to be able to sort the game. Yet I know that Zen also believes in posting less. I'm not entirely getting the feel that he is trying to restrain himself this game? Also, I'm not entirely sure if the conversation between you and him about the saltiness is very productive. I know that she usually is busy during the week and I personally know that she works a lot, and I know that when she has time to put in the analysis, she will be readable. I think my early read on her was misguided, due to being wrong.

Boomfrog, what do you think of this post?

I accidentally said this to Heury when this was meant for Somi:

Also you forgot to factor in Adum. Thoughts on him? Also, why do you town read Zen? Really walk me through that one. I want to make sure you get that one right.

quick wakeup post

bessie wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:51 am FoS somitomi. The confirmation posts are quite suspicious, and I’m surprised you didn’t see that once I pointed it out.

Slow down, I never said I don't see your point. All I'm saying is that I didn't think of it on my own.

EGW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:25 am Also you forgot to factor in Adum. Thoughts on him? Also, why do you town read Zen? Really walk me through that one. I want to make sure you get that one right.

You mean in my reads list? No I didn't, Adum is at the very top and I could actually coherently explain why. Seven is less well-founded, they seem to be quite open about their thoughts and I didn't really notice anything suspicious. In the past I often scumread Seven when they were town so I'm putting a little more weight on this argument than usual, but it's entirely possible I just finally got used to the way Seven plays. I'm planning to reevaluate that read during the weekend, that slot was the last in my ISO yesterday at like 2 in the morning.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:59 am For the record, I don't like moody's flip on his one solid townie read. And saying that her required threshold to be town is +2 really retroactively undermines the boldness that I liked from the +4 he originally gave her.

Yeah, that and the misrepresentation of what bessie said doesn't look great.

My mistake. At first, I thought you did, and then at a second glance I couldn't find it, but it was the way you formatted it that I missed you mentioning Adum at the top.

somitomi wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 9:45 amSeven is less well-founded, they seem to be quite open about their thoughts and I didn't really notice anything suspicious. In the past I often scumread Seven when they were town so I'm putting a little more weight on this argument than usual, but it's entirely possible I just finally got used to the way Seven plays. I'm planning to reevaluate that read during the weekend, that slot was the last in my ISO yesterday at like 2 in the morning.

You have to think about the intent behind the posts, rather than simply if a player is open or not. In general, it doesn't benefit mafia to be closed, as that goes against their win condition. Ask yourself what Zen is accomplishing, and if it helps the town in general progress. I too thought Zen looked fine in the beginning, yet look at his argument on Bessie in his post. Tell me what you think of that. Do you agree or disagree with it? This is mostly something to keep in the back of your mind as you re-evaluate.

EGW wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:11 am You have to think about the intent behind the posts, rather than simply if a player is open or not. In general, it doesn't benefit mafia to be closed, as that goes against their win condition. Ask yourself what Zen is accomplishing, and if it helps the town in general progress. I too thought Zen looked fine in the beginning, yet look at his argument on Bessie in his post. Tell me what you think of that. Do you agree or disagree with it? This is mostly something to keep in the back of your mind as you re-evaluate.

Admittedly, it is a bit of a surface read, although not quite as superficial as you put it. What I mean is that Seven's post don't seem as filtered as I'd imagine mafia would be. For instance Seven's mildly suspicious of Heury until at one point he goes "nah, Heury's actually obvtown". That to me suggests they're not too self-conscious about how consistent their mindset looks, which I think is more likely to come from town. Of course this sort of thing can be faked which is why I'm not particularly satisfied with myself here.

Zen is a competent player and he has the range to be able to fake it. Again, just look at his argument on Bessie. Does it seem like he believes it? Is it a fair argument from Zen? I think reading him based on his case on Bessie is crucial.

EGW wrote:It's not solid. It's misinformation. What are your thoughts on the case with these two quotes in mind:

You calling it misinformation implies you think Seven is scum, in which case you either think I'm being led down the primrose path or I'm scum and just got my marching orders. The quotes you cite look like they're from Sorc11, in that case she looks like she's trying to do the same thing as here, break some kind of existing meta where she tunnels somi (I've know about the tunnelling part for years, whether the target usually being somi is new may be something she developed elsewhere), but her being blatant with "I will vote somi no more" is a bit much. If somi had been our best suspect D1, it would be anti town.

Anti-town does not equal mafia. I do think Zen is scum, and his case on Bessie is faulty and a misrepresentation. My read on you is neutral, but this is why I'm addressing you so I can develop my read on you further, especially by asking you about the case.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:28 am @EGW: What's your read on Seven?

Why did you ask this at that point in time?

Moody town slipped btw. Ill see if others find it.

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 4:17 pm

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Oct 06, 2023 4:28 am @EGW: What's your read on Seven?

Why did you ask this at that point in time?

I thought my follow up made it clear what I was looking for. EGW flipped from implying you were town to saying you were scummy and I wanted to get more info on that thought process.