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xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:05 pm

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:04 pm Would Eliminate:

Bessie, Moody, Madge, maybe Heury

Probably not:

Sniper, WMU

Are you out of your mind?:

Worst, Boomfrog

I want to understand your TR for the worst.
Please enlighten me

The worst has felt really organic here. He feels like he's having fun posting his actual analysis into the thread, and being a bit cheeky about it in the process. I like his read on me a lot. I think it's something that I could see him making similarly to your read on me. He also just doesn't really fit on any teams. Last but not least, scum the worst doesn't really post at this activity level with this degree of content. There's a lot more trolling around trying to sort of pretend to make content without really doing anything. And I haven't really felt that this far I felt like he is actually trying to sort, which I would probably reevaluate on day two just like I would reevaluate you on any day two of any game. But I just don't feel much in the way of agenda from either him or you so far this game. I also feel like the argument between the two of you it is too likely to be Town versus town. While I think both of you have the strength to maintain that argument as any combination of alignments, I think there are elements to it and subtleties that I just wouldn't expect from either of you being scum. It reads as two passionate people genuinely shouting past each other.

Sniper voting no elim is something he is doing normally?
I know there are sites not voting for elim in day 1 and waiting for mech infos but I like to try to solve through interactions. Also D1 interactions/votes give a lot of content to think at after few flips.

That's why I asked so many questions and i am still dissapointed that the worst didn't get my intention.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:05 pm

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:02 pm

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:57 pm
Madge is a crap shoot D1 in general, I've seen nothing alignment indicative from her all Day, she just really doesn't care about D1 as either alignment. She is a decent shot at scum by PoE, but I think Moody is actively scummy.

He usually has at least something to say about every player but he only posted one post giving reads on like 5 players. One of those reads was a strong town read of Bessie. Imo, there was no way to support that read and I called him out on it. He's been active on the thread since then but completely ignored discussing his read with me even though I'm his other strong town read and he should be concerned with working together with me.

His behavior is 100% trying to avoid confrontation, not work on solving the game.

This site has an unique playstyle, and until i get it i have to ask: scum here are not defending each other?
The thread is very quiet, is like scum are ok with the wagons

Yes, I'd say scum are very cautious about being too obvious about working together.

Btw, @osie: this is why Moody and Bessie aren't mates. They are the only two votes on you and Moody wouldn't have given the random strong town read on Bessie. I'm reluctant to post this since it will lead you to the conclusion that only Bessie is scum but keep it in mind for later Days.

Follow-up question, is bussing super common? I feel like any of the players that I feel are decently likely to be scum also a decently likely to have at some point bust someone else in this thread.

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:07 pm Do we have plurality or majority?

Both

Sniper is extremely noobie still and doesn't understand why no elim is so bad. This site generally tries to elim every Day except MYLO or rare mechanical situations.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:18 pm

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:07 pm Do we have plurality or majority?

Both

You mean either...

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:15 pm

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:05 pm

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:04 pm Would Eliminate:

Bessie, Moody, Madge, maybe Heury

Probably not:

Sniper, WMU

Are you out of your mind?:

Worst, Boomfrog

I want to understand your TR for the worst.
Please enlighten me

The worst has felt really organic here. He feels like he's having fun posting his actual analysis into the thread, and being a bit cheeky about it in the process. I like his read on me a lot. I think it's something that I could see him making similarly to your read on me. He also just doesn't really fit on any teams. Last but not least, scum the worst doesn't really post at this activity level with this degree of content. There's a lot more trolling around trying to sort of pretend to make content without really doing anything. And I haven't really felt that this far I felt like he is actually trying to sort, which I would probably reevaluate on day two just like I would reevaluate you on any day two of any game. But I just don't feel much in the way of agenda from either him or you so far this game. I also feel like the argument between the two of you it is too likely to be Town versus town. While I think both of you have the strength to maintain that argument as any combination of alignments, I think there are elements to it and subtleties that I just wouldn't expect from either of you being scum. It reads as two passionate people genuinely shouting past each other.

I can understand this.
Smh at the bolded, how come am I always fighting in mafia? It's a bad habit already...

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:17 pm Follow-up question, is bussing super common? I feel like any of the players that I feel are decently likely to be scum also a decently likely to have at some point bust someone else in this thread.

Yes, distancing and bussing are common depending on the player. And I think day chat makes it more likely. I'd say Bessie and Moody always volunteer to be bussed. Madge, huary, and if course TSS are more normal.

@Boom - You see, where I run into an issue here... Even if you disregard the misrepresentations, which we can charitably call misinterpretations instead. Even if you disregard the appallingly lackluster and disproven case that Bessie has presented. Even if you disregard that Bessie has not really been sorting the rest of the thread. Even if you disregard that Bessie has a ton of equity on several teams. Even if you disregard that she does not seem able to keep herself from engaging in bad faith. Even if you disregard that players who know her better than I do have been calling her out for things that they find scummy.

None of this accounts for the fact that while all of these things are true, while Bessie is in a position of being wrong and called out for being wrong by most of the thread, Bessie does not want to reevaluate or to engage in good faith conversation. Is Bessie's playstyle really this stubbornly scummy? Is it normal?

This silence..

Like, I just don't understand how someone who is town would ever think that it's reasonable to be so persistently sarcastic, self victimizing, disingenuous, and inorganically sticking to something so vacuous and wrong... so proven to be such. I don't get the "it doesn't matter how wrong what I'm saying is as long as I don't have to think critically, don't have to evaluate anything" mentality. Maybe it is just how I grew up? I've never really understood people who stick to one thought without progressing it, without reevaluating when new information appears, without engaging in good faith when people question their opinions. So it's just feels scumming. It feels like she doesn't want people to question her, and so she refuses to approach the thread as an equal. She wants to be above rebuke but it refuses to take the steps to get there. To refuses to do the work. Refuses to play the game of mafia, instead expecting that some stubborn lack of contribution is going to magically catapult her into not being scumread for not participating in the same manner as the rest of us. And despite person upon person calling her out, she still refuses. It's one thing to not be self-aware, but to not even give a s*** about anyone in the thread other than herself and the singular, demonstrably wrong agenda on which she has focus...

I probably read through Bessie's ISO a good dozen times now trying to find a shred of townie motivation for how she's playing. Trying to find just one reason, just one... And it's just not there. I can't find it. If I found it, I'd shout it to the thread. But it doesn't exist. Her ISO doesn't explicitly say it but it feels like she's flipping the thread the bird. Like she just wants all of us to know that she is the only person here who matters. And regardless of any negative impression this might give, regardless of just how scummy this looks, above all, it is just so incomprehensible why she would do this.

I've seen Bessie in several games. I don't know how many off the top of my head, but even one game is generally enough to get enough of an idea of someone's personality to suggest that they wouldn't want to do something like this. Prior to this game, I wouldn't expect Bessie to ever want to play like she has here. And as far as I know I've seen her as both alignments. I don't usually pay attention to old games. I spurn the cold meta reads that everybody is so proud of. But if that's what I have to do, I'm willing to pull up her old games and try and hunt for the mere shred of a reflection of how she has played in this game.

I may try to include that in my analysis during this night phase, if she is not the elimination.

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:53 pm This silence..

I was the presumptive elimination out of the three players I believe, so it wouldn't surprise me if scum sat back for that reason. However it doesn't entirely make sense because there was enough time that votes were not unlikely to change. So I'm thinking that scum plans to do some kind of shenanigans with sniping. Either that or they are just too busy outside of the thread. Or maybe have even forgotten about the game.

If votes don't change in the next half hour, I'll shift to Moody to self-preserve and to ensure that scum shenanigans away from them are less likely.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:32 pm If votes don't change in the next half hour, I'll shift to Moody to self-preserve and to ensure that scum shenanigans away from them are less likely.

I'd still rather see Bessie on the chopping block, but moody is fine too.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:24 pm

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:53 pm This silence..

I was the presumptive elimination out of the three players I believe, so it wouldn't surprise me if scum sat back for that reason. However it doesn't entirely make sense because there was enough time that votes were not unlikely to change. So I'm thinking that scum plans to do some kind of shenanigans with sniping. Either that or they are just too busy outside of the thread. Or maybe have even forgotten about the game.

I am sure about one thing rn, i would vote to save you because I think you are town.
I would like a scum game of yours, your best scum game, maybe the one who made the worst doubt you at the day start. Meta is not the most important, but helps. I need a comparison between the so many times I saw you town and a scum game from you.

For me the scummiest player in the game is Madge but no one wants to vote her.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:30 pm @Boom - You see, where I run into an issue here... Even if you disregard the misrepresentations, which we can charitably call misinterpretations instead. Even if you disregard the appallingly lackluster and disproven case that Bessie has presented. Even if you disregard that Bessie has not really been sorting the rest of the thread. Even if you disregard that Bessie has a ton of equity on several teams. Even if you disregard that she does not seem able to keep herself from engaging in bad faith. Even if you disregard that players who know her better than I do have been calling her out for things that they find scummy.

None of this accounts for the fact that while all of these things are true, while Bessie is in a position of being wrong and called out for being wrong by most of the thread, Bessie does not want to reevaluate or to engage in good faith conversation. Is Bessie's playstyle really this stubbornly scummy? Is it normal?

Yes, Bessie is extremely stubborn, and pedantic, and when she feels she isn't being treated fairly she gets passive aggressive. Her general MO is to find something scummy and really dig into it and tunnel on a single person. To be clear, you haven't really disproven her case (and please don't try again), because everything is subjective and I have throughout the day seriously considered both of you for scum, and several other players have considered you possibly scummy. So stop taking it as a given that you are innocent in everyone else's mind and that she should have seen the light and repented her wayward ways. This is mafia, the game where you know for a fact that there are people in the game who you can't give the benefit of the doubt. Bessie's greatest failing is she has trouble reconsidering and gets into confirmation bias. I think you have both misrepresented each other and both been petty throughout the argument.

The difference between town and scum Bessie is that scum Bessie doesn't feel the righteousness as sincerely and so she over corrects and becomes a caricature of herself. She becomes, (and I know this is hard to believe) even MORE petty. That's why I didn't intervene more strongly, I wanted to see how Bessie would follow through. When she disengaged and said she'd only respond if someone beside Osie had a question, that felt really sincere. That she saw that this was not productive or persuasive and she was spending too much time rebutting. That was the biggest town ping I've gotten from her in the game. I could be wrong, but I put her at about 60% chance to be town. Whereas, for me, Moody is at about 80% chance of scum.

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:36 pm For me the scummiest player in the game is Madge but no one wants to vote her.

Voting for someone you declared as town is nonsense, but why does "strange" have to equal "scummy"? Any vote besides your last one is performative and meaningless and Madge knows it.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:41 pm

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:36 pm For me the scummiest player in the game is Madge but no one wants to vote her.

Voting for someone you declared as town is nonsense, but why does "strange" have to equal "scummy"? Any vote besides your last one is performative and meaningless and Madge knows it.

I don't understand what you say here.
Please say it again

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:38 pmSo stop taking it as a given that you are innocent in everyone else's mind and that she should have seen the light and repented her wayward ways.

I don't think this is really a fair representation of my case; I've been pointing out that her read on me isn't the problem, it's her unwillingness to solve and to communicate in good faith.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:38 pmThe difference between town and scum Bessie is that scum Bessie doesn't feel the righteousness as sincerely and so she over corrects and becomes a caricature of herself. She becomes, (and I know this is hard to believe) even MORE petty. That's why I didn't intervene more strongly, I wanted to see how Bessie would follow through. When she disengaged and said she'd only respond if someone beside Osie had a question, that felt really sincere.

Did it? It felt to me like she wanted to assuage you and a couple others specifically. And she still took a lot of convincing to step even slightly away from the sarcasm, and never stepped away from the self-victimization.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:38 pmThat she saw that this was not productive or persuasive and she was spending too much time rebutting. That was the biggest town ping I've gotten from her in the game. I could be wrong, but I put her at about 60% chance to be town. Whereas, for me, Moody is at about 80% chance of scum.

I would believe that pretty much anybody other than Bessie actually saw that the way she was playing was counter-productive. Bessie seemed like she wanted to please the crowd.

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:48 pm

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:41 pm

xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:36 pm For me the scummiest player in the game is Madge but no one wants to vote her.

Voting for someone you declared as town is nonsense, but why does "strange" have to equal "scummy"? Any vote besides your last one is performative and meaningless and Madge knows it.

I don't understand what you say here.
Please say it again

Sorry, I shouldn't use unusual words like performative.

One of the things you found scummy about Madge is that she said Bessie is town, then voted for bessie. You find that behavior impossible to understand so decided it means she is scum. However, there are two things to consider. #1 that behavior doesn't make sense for scum either. Actually, scum might be less likely to do something bizarre like that. #2 All votes mid game Day and earlier are actually meaningless, they will almost never result in any actual affect on the game, because they won't reach a majority early in the game Day. So her vote was nonsense but ALL votes at that time are actually nonsense.

Vote: Moody

Well at least this is also decently likely to flip scum.

osieorb18 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:03 pmAnd she still took a lot of convincing to step even slightly away from the sarcasm, and never stepped away from the self-victimization.

You can take the Bessie out of the argument but you can't take the argument out of the Bessie.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:04 pmOne of the things you found scummy about Madge is that she said Bessie is town, then voted for bessie. You find that behavior impossible to understand so decided it means she is scum. However, there are two things to consider. #1 that behavior doesn't make sense for scum either. Actually, scum might be less likely to do something bizarre like that. #2 All votes mid game Day and earlier are actually meaningless, they will almost never result in any actual affect on the game, because they won't reach a majority early in the game Day. So her vote was nonsense but ALL votes at that time are actually nonsense.

I don't like this post at all.

#1 - A self-contradictory post can happen from either alignment at any time in the game, but without follow-up is usually more likely to come from scum.

#2 - This is a really awful thought process that damages the strength of town in games. One of town players number one tools are their votes. Players need to be able to use their votes to put pressure on others. If you remove the strength of town votes by saying "all votes prior to a certain time are meaningless", then you might as well be playing a game without majority elimination. You might as well be playing a game with a day phase of a fraction of the length, in your example, half. That's not how the game of Mafia works. People need to feel pressure from votes no matter when it is in the day phase or it's pretty much a different social deduction game.

Now i understand, thanks for explaining me!