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Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm**

working on a re-read, about halfway done

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:42 am throwing accusations with no evidence?

vote heuristically_alone

this is a lot of fire coming from the guy who has proceeded to play follow the pack and seems determined to not profess a single independent thought or take any initiative in this game. where'd your gusto go buddy?

especially weird that he seemed vigilant and motivated, double checking voting rules, right off the bat but has now chosen to coast?

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:02 pm (apologies, missed the bold requirement)

vote heuristically_alone

this slot is just going to grow into a bigger and bigger problem as the game goes on without a serious change of course

messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 amOkay, for starters, I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts (hint: Sabrar).

early shading of sabrar here, ick

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:54 am
messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 am Okay, for starters, I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts (hint: Sabrar).
I knew it! It was the dot that betrayed me, wasn't it?

I'm familiar with messie (both halves), boomfrog, Wam, less so with heury and somitomi, even less so with the others. It's been some time.

FoS: BoomFrog

For not even trying.

sabrars early reactions to messie and boom here, if sabrar has real experience playing with boom which this seems to imply, we should be taking this take seriously. His easy going response to messie's early shade tracks with his flip and it looks like hes trying to playfully get messie to show more of their hand here with this gesture

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:29 am
messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 am
Okay, for starters, I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts (hint: Sabrar).
VOTE: messie

Town flipped heury signaling a strong scum ping from messie's early shade throwing at sabrar

Eido wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:37 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:54 am I'm familiar with messie (both halves), boomfrog, Wam, less so with heury and somitomi, even less so with the others. It's been some time.
Is Boom usually low engagement at the beginning? We played together in Apex but he replaced in for Somi

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 2:49 pm No, he's usually not. He might try something different this game but that still falls way short.

Town sabrar explaining why boom scum pinged early for him

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:52 pm I'm about 97% certain that heury and Mark are not both scum. I'm about 88% certain that heury is not scum.

Town sabrar with the impressively early townread on the town's flipped PR. Given what he expresses here, and my review of mark's D1, townleaning on Mark

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:09 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:54 amFoS: BoomFrog

For not even trying.
But Doctor! I am Pagliacci!

super ick response here, doesn't even engage the point being made, trying to play off dodging the question as just joking around

somitomi wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:47 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:09 pm Why do you think there are 3 scum?
Why does 66% mean 3 scum?

hate this response, feels like the response of someone afraid to walk into a trap and get caught TMI'ing when any town player can just reason through the issue mathematically to see how another townie might be speculating on balance. shooting an immediate question back to sabrar's instead of trying to answer it leans defensive/scared scumplay

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:44 am @Messie: I assume weekends are still peek posting time for you. This is the only weekend before deadline. I'd love to hear more from y'all y'all y'all.

weird reach out to messie specifically here, might be an attempt to have light but non-notable interaction with a buddy so as to not be entirely conspicuous

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:42 am
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:31 am @Sabrar: Why do you think Messie is my scum buddy?
Why do you think I think messie is scum?

sabrar calling boom out on a preconceived notion re: his reads

messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:07 am
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:54 am
messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 am Okay, for starters, I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts (hint: Sabrar).
I knew it! It was the dot that betrayed me, wasn't it?
Not entirely. Your timing is suspicious.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:54 am FoS: BoomFrog

For not even trying.
Why an FoS why not a vote? Is there a reason you want to leave your vote on me me me?

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 8:29 am VOTE: messie
Reasons?

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 5:09 pm But Doctor! I am Pagliacci!
pagliacci.png

messie committing to the initial shade throw here. they seem awfully concerned about sabrar's vote on them, pings self-pres. weirdly goes out of their way to comment on boom's non-responsive pagliacci joke or whatever. focusing again on votes on their slot by asking heury for reasoning on their vote, again very self pres focused

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:31 am
messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:07 am Not entirely. Your timing is suspicious.
Yeah, because I'm known for being patient and not refresh the page every minute when I'm expecting role pm-s to be sent out. I'm sure you have a GoJoe post about that saved somewhere.

messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:07 am Why an FoS why not a vote? Is there a reason you want to leave your vote on me me me?
You're fully aware that I don't switch often. It simply didn't merit a vote.

It feels like your two halves wait for each other before posting your combined posts. I'm not about to tell you how to play but don't you feel this restricts the information you can convey?

sabrar calling out messie's shade for being baseless, I don't think messie comes out looking good at all in their early interactions with sabrar

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:04 pm @messie: why are you so sure that there are only 2 scum?

not sure we every got a real response to this from messie? if we did someone please link

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:41 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 3:52 pm I'm about 97% certain that heury and Mark are not both scum. I'm about 88% certain that heury is not scum.
This seems incredibly sure for so little content from me (I've been at work and school). And why rule out us as buddies specifically? I don't think we interacted

Eido wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:08 am Ok so, random coffee thought. I've been thinking about this post:

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:15 pm so since i already vote do i still have to post every day?
Scum!Phillip, being new and all, probably seeks this type of guidance from the private chat ? They would have a buddy and a mentor after all.
Do scum have daychat? I checked the rules and the word chat was used, but IDK if that refers to scumchat too.
messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:12 am I think I’m less likely to tunnel, this time, but right now Sabrar’s my scum read.

Or is he?
This just seems pointlessly vague to me. I guess it might be a gag but still I don't love that ambiguity for the sake of ambiguity.

I think this post looks very good for mark. Not content to just be grouped with someone he has no reason to trust, very townie. Scum would be happy to be placed in a nice "these two prob not buddies and both prob not scum" pairing in early game, no reason to push back.

Mark, what specifically are you referring to re: ambiguity here? messie's self contradicting position on sabrar?

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:19 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:42 am
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:31 am @Sabrar: Why do you think Messie is my scum buddy?
Why do you think I think messie is scum?
Because a little tiny town Sabrar lives in my brain on a little tiny xcadia and he's said you'd think the was the most suspicious pairing at that moment. I know your vote was RVS I'm not counting that.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:16 amI try hard not to do quick scum-reads anymore.
How convenient.

Vote Sabrar

this post is straight garbage all around

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:59 pm
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:19 pm Because a little tiny town Sabrar lives in my brain on a little tiny xcadia and he's said you'd think the was the most suspicious pairing at that moment. I know your vote was RVS I'm not counting that.
Please explain how you came to that conclusion.
- up until that point you haven't interacted with messie at all,
- messie posted exactly once, a totally NAI introductory post in which they have not interacted with you
- outside of my RVS I have interacted/mentioned messie exactly once, in that post I expressed no suspicion towards them.

There was simply no reason for you to think that I would consider messie and you the most suspicious pairing.

sabrar calling it out for being garbage

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:59 pm i decided to vote
vote: messie,
as he'she is the most common choice, besides sabrar

this actually looks really good for a town!phillip argument because it seems like sabrar knows what hes doing and get a lot of focus on him in early game with this crew. if he is scum hiding being a follow the pack noobie strat, then him going messie here over town!Sabrar is a good look when both choices were viable

messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:54 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:31 am
messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:07 am Why an FoS why not a vote? Is there a reason you want to leave your vote on me me me?
You're fully aware that I don't switch often. It simply didn't merit a vote.
Ok. How do I merit keeping your vote?

Eido wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:57 am This something you can talk about more? Why is the timing suspicious?
Because he was waiting for the game to start when he should have been asleep.

Eido wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:15 am Is Sabrar's timing being off something you consider reliable?
No, which is why I will be evaluating his content as a whole. Woof.

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:18 pm Forgot that I DO have a read on messie. Hence the vote. Still only treating as one entity though.
skeptical bessie.PNG

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:59 pm i decided to vote
vote: messie,
as he'she is the most common choice, besides sabrar
Reasons you find me scummy?

messie continuing to be obsessed with only people voting for them or talking about them, screams self pres. also internally contradictory to be saying they have this strong early read on sabrar off some weird contrived post timing meta tell, and then when pressed they backpedal and say they're going to "evaluate their content as a whole." Did anyone see that happening? I sure didn't

boomfrog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:19 am
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:59 pm
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:19 pm Because a little tiny town Sabrar lives in my brain on a little tiny xcadia and he's said you'd think the was the most suspicious pairing at that moment. I know your vote was RVS I'm not counting that.
Please explain how you came to that conclusion.
You first. You haven't answered my question or my implied question at all.

1) Was I right?
2) If not who was near the bottom of your list?

Bonus question:
Was your fos on me serious? (I assume yes, you are always serious). What kind of first post did you expect from me?

boomfrog "NO U FIRST"ing town!sabrar here, trying to shake him off and pressure flip as sabrar is starting to sink his teeth in. He's literally trying to burden shift to town!sabrar here to avoid having to reverse engineer a read he doesn't really have cuz lolscum

boomfrog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:25 am
Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:51 pm on a scale from 1-10 how mountainous do you think this game is?
What are you hoping to get out of this question?

I recommend no one answer this question, btw.

just a reminder that boom deliberate undermined my TMI bait here by trying to signal to everyone that it was TMI bait despite clearly being aware that that was the purpose of it

Wam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:24 pm @sabrar can you detail your Heury read more?

I'm leaning this way.

vote messie

I dont get the fos for not seeing something in the OP especially as it was added later. I had completely missed it as well.

Cycnical sucipous view says messie is worried about sabrar as they have the best meta read on madge and bessie. But I maybe being too cynical.

my cynical position right now is that with doctor dead and sabrar, seemingly a strong player/town leader, being a sitting duck, becomes a go-to scum target regardless of flip implications because even in a worst case they might feel they can 1 for 1 trade off sabrar and let the remaining mate just carry to endgame without sabrar in to solve.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:46 pm**

keeping my vote on boom, nothing I've seen so far makes me less suspicious of him

messie looking worse and is a strong second scum pick

somitomi kinda grossly sideline sitting and not taking real stances

wam looking better on re-read, actually looks like he's scumhunting

mark also looking better on re-read

here's where Im at, subject to updating when I finish full re-read

1. Wam - townlean
2. Phillip - neutral, cannot go to endgame
4. messie (bessie/Madge) - scumlean
6. somitomi - scumlean
7. Eido - townlean
8. BoomFrog - scumlean
9. Makhaira - confirmed town
10. Mark_Cangila - townlean

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:45 pm**

Oh boy my person dropped a carrot on the ground I'm a happy dog right now!

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:56 am what's up with the L-1 thing next to me?

Philip, can you please ask your mentor to explain this, and what “L-1” means to the game, and how it may be seen as suspicious?

Wam wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:44 am
messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:54 pm
Wam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:39 am It's not just sabrar's view as well the more I look at the end of day 1 the less I like booms play and how we needed up on somi. I was unfortunately 10 minutes late in waking up to do anything end of day 1.
May I have some examples of what you did not like about BoomFrog’s vote on somitomi?
Boom town reading Heury here viewtopic.php?p=19407#p19407, back both you and heury as town here viewtopic.php?p=19434#p19434.

This doesn’t answer my question, and if anything supports BoomFrog’s reasons for his vote. If BoomFrog was reading both me and Heury as town, doesn’t it make sense for him to want to vote elsewhere?

Wam wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:44 am
boomfrog wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:09 am Vote Somitomi

I'd rather not yeet Heury or messie but if it comes down to it I'll move to Heury.
Again here the interest seems to be more in finding alternatives rather than finding scum. Gut feel says Boom had banked on heury being town and didn't want to self pres for the optics. On You, you have been fairly consistently defending boom. ie viewtopic.php?p=19496#p19496, irrespective of your alignment keeping you around is good for scum boom. So the somi push looks more Boom's self interest than genuine scum hunting.

Wut? If Boom is scum he wouldn’t have had to “bank on” Heury being town, he would know Heury was town. This is a newbie game with exactly two factions.

I will come back to the Philip question and your response. Maybe.

Eido wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 1:06 pm
messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 7:54 pm Do you not think Sabrar publicly implying that he expects to be night eliminated by BoomFrog would give any scum player a motive to kill Sabrar, not just BoomFrog?
Hm yes it's possible. But it feels quite niche if this was the only motive at this time. Scum might be likelier to look at a player's impact on the thread and what conversations to cut short. I'm currently leaning on the idea it comes from someone who was familiar with Sabrar being a strong player, and/or someone who was concerned about his reads.

By this argument, Sabrar would also be the obvious Watcher target. Why do you think scum wasn’t afraid of a Watcher?

somitomi wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 5:52 pm It's not specific to BoomFrog, I just have a hard time reading people on D1 and my experience is that my D1 reads tend to be rubbish.

: like really.PNG (77.29 KiB) Viewed 2222 times

Back in a minute. I see a squirrel that needs to be barked at.

Posted: **Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:36 pm**

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm this slot is just going to grow into a bigger and bigger problem as the game goes on without a serious change of course

I’m having a lot of trouble justifying keeping Philip in the game for reasons including these. He’s being mentored by osieorb so he should be improving, not declining. That’s why I made the request I did in my previous post.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm
messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 amOkay, for starters, I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts (hint: Sabrar).
early shading of sabrar here, ick

Half my brain is notorious for analyzing confirmation posts. Here’s an example from the previous game. You can sort by author and search for “confirmation” this came up quite a bit where I was scum read for it. Or you can ask Wam about it. Our old forum is gone so I don’t have links ready.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm sabrars early reactions to messie and boom here, if sabrar has real experience playing with boom which this seems to imply, we should be taking this take seriously. His easy going response to messie's early shade tracks with his flip and it looks like hes trying to playfully get messie to show more of their hand here with this gesture

I agree we should be taking Sabrar’s content seriously, something that doesn’t happen often enough with dead players. But my current thought is that Sabrar is just wrong. He’s not great at Day 1 reads (and shines late game), as Sabrar himself explained here:

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:49 pm
Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:38 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:16 am I try hard not to do quick scum-reads anymore.
why not?
Because in the past my early tunnels were more often wrong then right.

This is one reason I am suspicious of Wam using Sabrar as an excuse to vote BoomFrog in his first post on D2.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:44 am @Messie: I assume weekends are still peek posting time for you. This is the only weekend before deadline. I'd love to hear more from y'all y'all y'all.
weird reach out to messie specifically here, might be an attempt to have light but non-notable interaction with a buddy so as to not be entirely conspicuous

I can see your suspicion, but this is also truthful. bessie does not play at work (9-5 PST/PDT), and plays about once a day weekday evenings, and a lot more on weekends. Madge plays at work (but is in Australia). My posting this game, being a combination of the two, started out slow (explained here ).

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm
Sabrar wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:04 pm @messie: why are you so sure that there are only 2 scum?
not sure we every got a real response to this from messie? if we did someone please link

See these two posts:

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:12 am
Sabrar wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:02 am @messie: did you miss this question?
I did, thank you for pointing it out.

My question to you is, why do you think I think there’s only two scum?

Sabrar in messie’s head wrote: Because you only FoS’d two players
Well, I’ve currently found two players with content worth FoSing. Do you want me to make up a third scum-read just to make you happy?

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am Half identified scum team from confirmation posts = that was a joke. Like your vote is, the one that's apparently still on me me me me me me me

Re self preservation. Half of me is not interested in self preservation at all; and is also a very reactive player. The other half is known to self pres vote, and is a more proactive player. These two halves have argued about this in past games. Take from that what you will.

Woof? Is that the Amazon delivery truck? Excuse me while I go bark at the driver, so he doesn’t try to move in to my home.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:13 am**

Sorry, I've been at a robotics tournament all weekend, and I was wiped out today.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:03 pm
Wam wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:44 am
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:30 pm @wam: You said you found me scummy much earlier though. Around this post:

What exactly was scummy about my behavior?
I really didn't get the Eido read, as stated here I didn't buy the gambit.

I could have sat back and let us coast to a miselim on Heury. If I hadn't gone wild and attacked Eido then I wouldn't have been under any scrutiny. If messie was my partner I could have easily found an excuse to vote heury, no need to get so dirty. I pushed Eido because I wanted to shake things up. People show their true intentions when they take action, and the only action in this game is voting someone you think will very possibly be eliminated due to your vote. So getting people to vote on more wagons gives us more info. We have a lot more to go on D2 because of my shake up D1. What's the scummy motivation for what I did D1?

This is literally entirely wine, and it's bad wine. "the only action in this game is voting someone you think will very possibly be eliminated due to your vote" is what sets me off on this; it's very clearly not true, and Boom should know it.

"I could have sat back and let us coast to a miselim on Heury."
Then how do you explain these few posts?

boomfrog wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:09 am I'd rather not yeet Heury or messie but if it comes down to it I'll move to Heury.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:54 am Quick list since I have other obligations tonight.

Town:
Mark - Good townie vibe and active scumhunting. Good reads list. I recall Mark being more passive.
Heury - Good reads list, actually paying attention and trying to scumhunt.
Makhaira - I think I like the rolefishing actually. It was a bad idea, but they are obviousely very familiar with how to play mafia and I think as scum they would not have tried it. I think it was a sincere but misguided attempt at scumhunting.
Phillip - I don't want to excuse the complete lack of effort, but the brazenness feels townie. Newbie scum would be more worried about fitting in and not screwing up. town!Phillip doesn't care that he's sticking out.
Wam - Vote on messie has some merit. Town vibe from his willingness to go after Messie, since scum have often been caught in those jaws.

messie - One townie ping early game but their reads list is concerning.
Sabrar - feels off, but I'm willing to give him more time to show his townieness. Would really like to see a reads list. Especially his read on me.
Eido - very townie vibe, but clearly an experienced player. I expected them to lead town but their lack of commentary on my "conflict" with Sabrar feels very deliberate.
Somitomi - complete lack of effort
Scum

Vote Eido

@Somitomi please put some effort in or you may end up the compromise elimination.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:54 pm @wam and @sabrar, you are letting Eido's townie tone lull you into complacency. They started the day strongly but then completely failed to be involved when things got serious.

Messier and Heury are both bad eleminations, and I'm trying to find a better choice.

Regardless of "oh I was just saying what I'd do if it came down to Messie vs Heury", why wouldn't you just keep your vote on someone you find scummy, especially D1. Isn't having content and stuff to analyze so important, per you? And why switch to Heury over Messie, when you had Messie listed as so scummy?

@Boomfrog Why did you switch from reading Messie as scummy to so townie, especially from JUST these two posts by them?

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am Half identified scum team from confirmation posts = that was a joke. Like your vote is, the one that's apparently still on me me me me me me me

Sorry, I got confused between Heury and Mak. That was a genuine mistake: Heury didn't rolefish to my knowledge and so doesn't deserve to be there, and Mak's rolefishing means they don't deserve to be my Towniest.

My vote is defensive, though, so I'm not moving it.

I want to swap to wam if there's any momentum, though. His vote is opportunistic. No scumread on me. He might be scum with Heury or Sabrar.

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:41 am You don't know what's characteristic of me, I'm a whole new person!

(I expect I'll be changing my vote before deadline, fwiw.)

"We have a lot more to go on D2 because of my shake up D1". What? We have more to go on ABOUT YOU. This says nothing about you from a scum OR town perspective - scum!boom would try to create data that suggests a town!boom, which counts as "more to go on" but isn't actually useful data to town.

This entire post from Boom is a massive scumping to me.

I've been trying to reason through the Eido wagon attempt from scum and town Boom perspectives. Assuming a scum!boom, I see 2 scenarios:
1. Scum!Messie, and it's a gambit to look townie while taking some of the pressure off of Messie. This post adds to that in my mind - Wam was voting for Messie, and Sabrar had been kinda aggressive towards them as well.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:54 pm @wam and @sabrar, you are letting Eido's townie tone lull you into complacency. They started the day strongly but then completely failed to be involved when things got serious.

Messier and Heury are both bad eleminations, and I'm trying to find a better choice.

I don't understand why Boom wouldn't reach out to Somi and others, though. Ignoring Philip and Heury I get (not playing much and voting partially defensively, respectively), but why not everyone else not on the Heury wagon? I also don't understand why scum!Boom would expect the wagon to work - but I also don't know much about scum!boom or his propensity for gambits.
2. Town!Messie - now I just don't understand it. It might just be a stupid gambit from scum!Boom, but I don't get the point.

Now, town!Boom. I'm not gonna look at scum vs town messie here, because town!boom wouldn't know. I don't see this as a real thing because I just can't understand how Boom reads Eido as scummy - his reasoning seems incredibly self-centered and foolish, and trying to move a wagon onto him at end of day feels bad, especially the way he did it.

I don't see a world of town!Boom switching onto Eido like he did, unless he just made a big mistake or something - I'd vote for him, but I don't wanna go to L-2.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:19 am**

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm Mark, what specifically are you referring to re: ambiguity here? messie's self contradicting position on sabrar?

Yeah exactly. Seemed like an easy way to get out of taking a position on anything.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:19 am**

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:13 am I don't see a world of town!Boom switching onto Eido like he did, unless he just made a big mistake or something - I'd vote for him, but I don't wanna go to L-2.

Oops - he's at L-2 now, my vote would put him at L-1.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 5:58 am**

I had a very busy weekend. I'll try to get out a good post tomorrow.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:54 am**

@messie if not boom then who would you suggest?

Also.@ messie to quote sabrar again my current nagging doubt about boom is does this elim feel too easy?

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:56 am**

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:03 pm
Wam wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 11:44 am
boomfrog wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:30 pm @wam: You said you found me scummy much earlier though. Around this post:

What exactly was scummy about my behavior?
I really didn't get the Eido read, as stated here I didn't buy the gambit.
I could have sat back and let us coast to a miselim on Heury. If I hadn't gone wild and attacked Eido then I wouldn't have been under any scrutiny. If messie was my partner I could have easily found an excuse to vote heury, no need to get so dirty. I pushed Eido because I wanted to shake things up. People show their true intentions when they take action, and the only action in this game is voting someone you think will very possibly be eliminated due to your vote. So getting people to vote on more wagons gives us more info. We have a lot more to go on D2 because of my shake up D1. What's the scummy motivation for what I did D1?

Boom town reading Heury here viewtopic.php?p=19407#p19407, back both you and heury as town here viewtopic.php?p=19434#p19434.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:09 am Vote Somitomi

I'd rather not yeet Heury or messie but if it comes down to it I'll move to Heury.
Again here the interest seems to be more in finding alternatives rather than finding scum. Gut feel says Boom had banked on heury being town and didn't want to self pres for the optics. On You, you have been fairly consistently defending boom. ie viewtopic.php?p=19496#p19496, irrespective of your alignment keeping you around is good for scum boom. So the somi push looks more Boom's self interest than genuine scum hunting.
Again, why push Somi if I'm scum and there's an easy town wagon or two with 3 votes already? I'm trying to test people to see if they reveal secret alliances.

I'm noting this here but the response will need my brain working and I have a horrific cold and can't focus and need to look at previous games.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:13 pm**

My head’s somewhere here:

Mark / Phillip
Wam / Makhaira / Messie
Somi / Boom

Aside from the Night kill trail, my issue with Boom is that he was aware low effort players likelier contain scum, but spent most of his time D1 looking to undermine high effort posters instead. It's not clear if his push on me was real or just another plan to shake things up. And so it's not clear, then, what he's thinking or doing meaningfully from the results of his gambits. It feels self-serving and potentially dishonest to the Town.

I'll go into more detail later about the reads above as it's been busy recently, and it's busy now, but currently leaning towards Boom.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:21 pm**

@Wam If you're online, can you take me through how you're seeing Messie right now?

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:27 pm**

I'm torn on messie I still think they were scummy day 1. Not seen anything much either way day 2 so they are my second scummiest currently after boom.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:56 pm**

Eido wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:13 pm My head’s somewhere here:

Mark / Phillip
Wam / Makhaira / Messie
Somi / Boom

Wait, why is Philip townie in your mind? What's he even done to deserve that?

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 1:31 pm**

They made a post in the Night. Scum!Phillip is probably somewhat aware of the boundaries of the game, considering they have Osie as a mentor. If the scum plan is resorting to dirty tactics like encouraging Phillip to fake a Night post, I think the team gets scolded by Osie (who is big on the ethics of the game).

I don't think this plan is happening. They just look consistently a bit lost, which makes me think they're probably not scum.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:20 pm**

This is frustrating because there's a lot of context that only half the players here have. Most of my recent games D1 I have done a "gambit", something intentionally "anti-town" on it's surface to provoke reactions. It's been one of the most successful ways I have to get good reads on people because when you put scum in an awkward situation they don't know how to react naturally when they know you are town. Somi, wam, messie, heury and Sabrar are all familiar with this. I thought Mark was as well but maybe they haven't played with me that much.

Anyway, time to prove my strategy works. I just have to solve the game D2.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:21 pm**

@Somi can you please have some more opinions please. You are messing up my analysis.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:33 pm**

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:26 am
so far every one seems to think its boomfrog.
i don't realty know who else to vote far, so
vote: boomfrog
If I or another townie is eliminated toDay then the next game day is going to be MYLO. That means MissLynch and Lose. It will be the last chance to eliminate scum and we will need to eliminate scum every day phase from then on perfectly. Please ask your mentor to tell you about MYLO and LYLO strategy.

At MYLO we should vote for "no elimination" because with an even number of players left we can lose one more townie without losing the game and that improves our odds of picking scum by having less people to choose between. Also it gives investigation power roles one more night to get information. There might be a mass claim toMorrow (next game day) so ask your mentor and mass claims too.

After MYLO is LYLO (lynch or lose). At LYLO it's very important that everyone discusses carefully and all vote together. If two townies vote for different people then scum can easily win at that point because they can just finish the vote without actually needing to justify themselves the next game day since the game is over.

Since you are the most inexperienced player you should probably just wait for everyone else to vote and then you make the final vote. Voting first is risky in LYLO and it's important that someone very good at solving the game votes first. Honestly you should probably just pick one person you trust most and copy their vote.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:35 pm**

Messed that up somehow. It was supposed to look like this:

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:26 am so far every one seems to think its boomfrog.
i don't realty know who else to vote far, so
vote: boomfrog

If I or another townie is eliminated toDay then the next game day is going to be MYLO. That means MissLynch and Lose. It will be the last chance to eliminate scum and we will need to eliminate scum every day phase from then on perfectly. Please ask your mentor to tell you about MYLO and LYLO strategy.

At MYLO we should vote for "no elimination" because with an even number of players left we can lose one more townie without losing the game and that improves our odds of picking scum by having less people to choose between. Also it gives investigation power roles one more night to get information. There might be a mass claim toMorrow (next game day) so ask your mentor and mass claims too.

After MYLO is LYLO (lynch or lose). At LYLO it's very important that everyone discusses carefully and all vote together. If two townies vote for different people then scum can easily win at that point because they can just finish the vote without actually needing to justify themselves the next game day since the game is over.

Since you are the most inexperienced player you should probably just wait for everyone else to vote and then you make the final vote. Voting first is risky in LYLO and it's important that someone very good at solving the game votes first. Honestly you should probably just pick one person you trust most and copy their vote.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 3:37 pm**

boomfrog wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 2:20 pm This is frustrating because there's a lot of context that only half the players here have. Most of my recent games D1 I have done a "gambit", something intentionally "anti-town" on it's surface to provoke reactions. It's been one of the most successful ways I have to get good reads on people because when you put scum in an awkward situation they don't know how to react naturally when they know you are town. Somi, wam, messie, heury and Sabrar are all familiar with this. I thought Mark was as well but maybe they haven't played with me that much.

Anyway, time to prove my strategy works. I just have to solve the game D2.

Do any of the names you listed above concern you? Should they be understanding you better considering they have more context?

I'd also appreciate if you could answer this question here: viewtopic.php?p=19764#p19764

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:27 pm**

boomfrog wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:03 pm I could have sat back and let us coast to a miselim on Heury. If I hadn't gone wild and attacked Eido then I wouldn't have been under any scrutiny. If messie was my partner I could have easily found an excuse to vote heury, no need to get so dirty. I pushed Eido because I wanted to shake things up. People show their true intentions when they take action, and the only action in this game is voting someone you think will very possibly be eliminated due to your vote. So getting people to vote on more wagons gives us more info. We have a lot more to go on D2 because of my shake up D1. What's the scummy motivation for what I did D1?

Ok, so was your scumread on Eido here part of the gambit? How about Sabrar?
Also, you did sort of find an excuse to vote Heury and I don't think you would've been under no scrutiny if you did that without attacking Eido and trying to set me up for a miselim. Maybe there would be less of it, but I find that sketchy in and of itself.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:40 pm my cynical position right now is that with doctor dead and sabrar, seemingly a strong player/town leader, being a sitting duck, becomes a go-to scum target regardless of flip implications because even in a worst case they might feel they can 1 for 1 trade off sabrar and let the remaining mate just carry to endgame without sabrar in to solve.

So does this make Boom and/or Messie more or less likely to be mafia in your mind?

messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 9:45 pm like really.PNG

Will we ever find a way to coexist?

Eido wrote: ↑Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:13 pm Aside from the Night kill trail, my issue with Boom is that he was aware low effort players likelier contain scum, but spent most of his time D1 looking to undermine high effort posters instead. It's not clear if his push on me was real or just another plan to shake things up. And so it's not clear, then, what he's thinking or doing meaningfully from the results of his gambits. It feels self-serving and potentially dishonest to the Town.

I'm probably biased here, but I don't think low effort players are likelier to be mafia at all. I'd say activity level (at least in absolute terms) is pretty much not an indication of aligment, because of how many other factors play into it. Playstyle or personality in particular has a much stronger influence on posting levels or how much thought a player puts into the game. You can maybe gauge people based on comparing their current effort to their past games, but even that can run afoul of IRL factors.

Posted: **Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:51 pm**

Vote Count 2.2

BoomFrog (3): Makhaira, Eido, phillip (L-2)

Not voting: BoomFrog, Mark_Cangila, messie, somitomi, wam

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:58 am**

Honestly you should probably just pick one person you trust most and copy their vote.

well in my opinion thats pretty close to voting popular.
okay i agree if we lose another town we're in serious trouble, so assuming so i'll use this strat for the next round if we lose a townie

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:04 am**

i don't think i'll play mafia again. i don't really know how to fully participate with meaningful posts.
interesting game, but not for me.

Posted: **Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:09 am**

Still working on my daily catch up, but I feel this deserves its own post.

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 1:04 am i don't think i'll play mafia again. i don't really know how to fully participate with meaningful posts.
interesting game, but not for me.

Philip, I appreciate that you keep posting and that you appear to want to do what’s best for your team. This is a newbie game and we’re all here to help you learn the game (and are honor bound to do so by the unofficial xkcd newbie game rules*), and the best thing you can do is to answer questions that you are asked. Don’t worry about giving the “right” answer because any answer you give, if it is what you are thinking, is the “right” answer. The next best thing you can do is to ask other players questions. Again, don’t worry about being “right” or saying something "wrong"; for a newbie just talking is important.

You can ask us in thread any questions about general mafia gameplay and we will all do our best to answer truthfully. You also have the advantage of a very experienced mentor in osieorb, and LaserGuy is available to explain anything you don’t understand. Please don’t be discouraged too quickly!

That said, both factions are trying to win, and town will likely vote you out regardless of your alignment if you are too much of a liability to town winning. So please post!

*Someday when I have time I will create a new “How to play mafia” thread with the stock rules that mods and players can use for reference.

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