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Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 4:20 pm**

Good game all! Very well played all around!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:20 pm**

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:39 pm**

Well that was stressful af, rereading shit under tight time pressure is not fun at all. Really glad I did my due diligence though because D1 and about half of D2 I was leaning adum but EOD2 and beyond things started to point the other direction

Mad respect to scum not shying away from bussing in an attempt to disrupt what was pretty brutally strong POE generated from the town PRs. Yall had a massive uphill battle and kept it crazy close. I definitely think the setup was town favored and scum really should have had a godfather at minimum with all the cop powers floating around as well as probably atleast a 1 shot strongman, 1 shot ninja, or both

Still a fun setup though! I def enjoyed playing my role! Town kind of needed a bone thrown their way on this forum, its been a rough cold streak for the town these past few games lol. Really glad I didnt have to eat my foot after talking all that shit about endgame coalitions, if I had thrown this I was in for some pretty serious humbling post game commentary at minimum

Sorry we didnt get to townbro as hard as we could've adum, you just were giving off crazy powerwolf vibes for a long time and it was hard to shake the paranoia but Im glad others with better natural ability to read wam helped me sort that endgame out more confidently

Nice little W to pick up before the holidays, def made me smile to win one after a long streak of Ls

GGs, well played everyone, hell of a game and cant wait to see you all in the next one!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:42 pm**

And of course shout out to madge and sabrar for being patient with my sloppyness, handling some intense situations with grace, and generally being fair, evenhanded, and dedicated hosts!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:57 pm**

Also someone ping me here and/or in discord when signups for the next game go up. Unless we need a moderator to volunteer in which case I'd probably be down to host a closed game using "complex normal" rules from mafia scum in the new year if no one else is feeling motivated to host!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:35 pm**

Freddino18 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:13 pm Adum, mildly disappointed after reading Gojoe that you KNEW last game day and still didn't vote. Also, you said we could mock you, so: nyeh

I was SUPER doubting my behavioral reads. And Thea's theory about factional powers gave me the perfect reason to expand that doubt, especially with no explanation for why the game seemed so town sided.

But yes, you can mock me.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:40 pm**

Makhaira wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:57 pm Also someone ping me here and/or in discord when signups for the next game go up. Unless we need a moderator to volunteer in which case I'd probably be down to host a closed game using "complex normal" rules from mafia scum in the new year if no one else is feeling motivated to host!

It's been a long long time since I ran a game. We used to have a secret santa game, would there be interest in that being run?

For those not around, each player submits a role.when they sign up They get jumbled up and given out, you can't get your own and the mod can edit them. When I ran them I also used to write my own role so there were N+1 roles to discourage mass claiming. Would be semi bastard probably to allow more flex in roles.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:41 pm**

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:35 pm
Freddino18 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:13 pm Adum, mildly disappointed after reading Gojoe that you KNEW last game day and still didn't vote. Also, you said we could mock you, so: nyeh
I was SUPER doubting my behavioral reads. And Thea's theory about factional powers gave me the perfect reason to expand that doubt, especially with no explanation for why the game seemed so town sided.

But yes, you can mock me.

Could I really have convinced you to vote mak?

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:47 pm**

So when do we give consent for everyone else to get a look at our super secret scum meeting minutes?

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:55 pm**

moody7277 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:47 pm So when do we give consent for everyone else to get a look at our super secret scum meeting minutes?

I consent!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:02 pm**

Just ignore where I carved "I heart Hawk King" on the back cover.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:02 pm**

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:41 pm
AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:35 pm
Freddino18 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:13 pm Adum, mildly disappointed after reading Gojoe that you KNEW last game day and still didn't vote. Also, you said we could mock you, so: nyeh
I was SUPER doubting my behavioral reads. And Thea's theory about factional powers gave me the perfect reason to expand that doubt, especially with no explanation for why the game seemed so town sided.

But yes, you can mock me.
Could I really have convinced you to vote mak?

Yep, I was that deep in self-doubt and Mak's thing with Bessie's investigation and the godfather looked like exactly the unforced error I was looking for, just not to the degree it confirmed. I'm not saying I would have, really depended on how both of you were able to sell me on it but I could see a world I did.

Voting me literally gave me the ability to be confident again, that's why I was kind of hoping that scum did vote me, whichever of you two it was.

I had no reason to be dishonest there, it wasn't a trick. I was in my head bad.

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:07 pm**

Makhaira wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:57 pm Also someone ping me here and/or in discord when signups for the next game go up. Unless we need a moderator to volunteer in which case I'd probably be down to host a closed game using "complex normal" rules from mafia scum in the new year if no one else is feeling motivated to host!

Gonna post signups for a tales mafia game in the next few days and me and Seven made!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:16 pm**

Like "Tales of..." series tales? If so Im pogging

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:19 pm**

Makhaira wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:16 pm Like "Tales of..." series tales? If so Im pogging

Yes!

Posted: **Tue Dec 10, 2024 7:24 pm**

You know what, the setup is almost done (just a few more balance things we have to sort out) so let me post signups now.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:54 am**

Thank you everyone for playing! I'm glad you all had a good time, I'm grateful that the unbalanced setup resulted in so many exciting moments for everyone and some lessons learnt for me and ol' Sabs.

As I said in the Gojoe thread, the loud variable sanity publishing cop was the centrepiece of the setup for me and I'm so glad that the moment at the start of D2 where the insane result got posted and everyone was confident and then confused went exactly as I hoped it would (less glad that Adumb was genuinely upset).

I think I screwed up with th 3 JOATs (originally it was gonna be 2, 1 town and 1 scum, and when we had the last signup I was like "you know what? should we just say screw it and do a third identical JOAT?"). Having one be quiet, and having that one be scum, was problematic. My intention was for it to help with fake claims, etc, but it really just made wam's claim stick out. I should have given wam the ability to make himself loud, or make one of the other JOATs quiet and take their loudness, or something.

On that note, we should have given Mafia a silencer type of role. I think the "pack of all trades" we did last year would have been a good option to beef them up (maybe one scum can kill, one scum can use a power, and if you run out of scummates you can choose between killing and using the other power). And that Pack of all Trades could have included silencer, godfather, etc.

Also, I love secret santa games and would be keen to participate in one - we don't need to have one in December, after all!

I think the invites to the various chats are in the original role PMs so go find 'em.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:10 am**

Mason chat
https://discord.gg/w6bCfuTpTG

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:11 am**

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:55 pm
moody7277 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 6:47 pm So when do we give consent for everyone else to get a look at our super secret scum meeting minutes?
I consent!

Super Secret Scum Chat

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 9:11 am**

Scum chat

https://discord.gg/gQnhzSjn

You can see the logic behind our decisions!

And my stream of consciousness near the end

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:46 pm**

The only thing I want to say about this game is...

GET THE HELL OUT OF MY HEAD SEVEN!!

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 6:08 pm**

Theallieza wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:10 am Mason chat
https://discord.gg/w6bCfuTpTG

.... Of all the reasons I considered, of all the arguments you might have made to convince Fredd to vote Santy, "it would be funny" was not on my radar.

Genuinely it could've changed my mind cause Fredd has a history of that.

I still don't understand why, in the conversation that made me suspicious of you, you didn't just immediately respond that I was right and it was what you thought I was based on my claim rather than what I claimed. I get that you suspected me but I have no idea why you tried to redirect or claim I was being emotional.

Not that I don't take responsibility for my misread. You can take your satisfaction for proving me wrong, this is ultimately still on me and I owe you both apology dances.

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 7:05 pm**

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:18 am Good game all, thank you for participating! I would like to address a couple of topics specifically, but I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.

Balance:
Balance in Halloween games is always attempted but never promised. Madge likes pizzazz, I try to tone her down but I don't squish every single idea of hers as I want her to have fun as well. With that said this year I did a poor job with the final setup and I apologize. I'll take full responsibility for that because as we know Madge is perfect.
What happened was that originally we started with a fairly normal 7-2 setup, then had to adjust to 8-2 so made Town weaker and scum stronger. Later there was an additional sign-up and we decided on 8-3, completely reworking power levels, making Town much stronger and scum weaker. Finally we again needed to adjust for 9-3, we made a few last minute modifications and called it a day. Unfortunately these later adjustments happened while I was afk due to visiting family and getting sick at the same time. In retrospect we should have obviously delayed the start but at that point I just wanted to get over it and didn't tell Madge to wait.
I'm glad that Town-paranoia was high enough to cause an interesting end-game but this is not something that should be relied on.

Gonna be real, the entire reason we were so paranoid was it was so town sided at its face. I don't think we'd have been half as paranoid if the setup didn't have three jacks with copping and a publishing cop.

Loud vs Publishing:
I was lazy and did not check what these did, the names sounded fitting for the roles. I apologize for any confusion this caused, but this is precisely why we have our disclaimer in the rules, so that players can accept the weirdness and ideally don't conjure up complicated theories when there is a much simpler explanation.

I'm gonna say that I think it encourages complicated theories. I understand where you're coming from, but the nature of it being a social puzzle game. Mak was legit worried about day number being incorrect!

Hypothetical questions:
I would like to illustrate the point with an example from this game. Makhaira asked us whether his power of making the target Loud/Publishing would override a hypothetical Ninja modifier. Now we did not have any type of Ninja in this game, so the honest answer is that we simply don't know because we never considered that interaction. Obviously I can't make that reply so now I am forced to imagine a scenario where we gave a Ninja modifier to someone. In that scenario I'm pretty sure we would have considered the interaction between Ninja and Publishing in advance and would have decided (based on power-level and fun-factor) to make the Ninja even more stealthier or not (note that even the MafiaScum wiki does not explicitly describe this interaction). However that all depends on what we decide and therefore how we word the Ninja ability. This information is therefore part of the hidden setup-info just as much as the number of scum/indies in the game, so it is something we won't reveal.
TLDR: Players are assumed to be clever enough to figure out the interaction between 2 roles where the exact wording is known. However since there is never any guarantee that roles are standard, when you ask a hypothetical question regarding a role, you are basically asking the mods how that role is worded in the actual game. That is setup-info that we most likely don't want to reveal, for the same reason that you simply don't get to told what another player's ability does.
Madge described this best:
The best you can do is consult the wiki and work out what you think would happen, assuming the roles mentioned exist and are implemented exactly as per the wiki.

I do get you. Part of the reason that I believe in hypotheticals is that I tend to use standard versions of roles and then use modifiers to adjust if necessary. (Eg, last game's bodyguards, I'd have called "one shot hunting" bodyguard). That way I can answer for how I interpret the standard version of a role without giving setup info about how the role would be implemented in game purely by answering questions. People are then free to ask "ok, but what about with this modifier?".

That's because mods interpret the standard version of roles differently, and not being able to understand takes away from what I see as the puzzle aspect of the game, namely trying to understand how people think when put into different situations.

But to be clear, I wasn't asking you to change your minds on this. I was kvetching because of what I personally enjoy more, because I think it encourages and rewards more thoughtful play. But I also recognize the validity of your reasoning for why you do it like you do, it's fundamentally a different game philosophy and I respect it.

(And I do recognize I should've called EGW a doctoring tree stumper last game, it is a custom role though)

madge wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2024 1:54 am Thank you everyone for playing! I'm glad you all had a good time, I'm grateful that the unbalanced setup resulted in so many exciting moments for everyone and some lessons learnt for me and ol' Sabs.

As I said in the Gojoe thread, the loud variable sanity publishing cop was the centrepiece of the setup for me and I'm so glad that the moment at the start of D2 where the insane result got posted and everyone was confident and then confused went exactly as I hoped it would (less glad that Adumb was genuinely upset).

I think I screwed up with th 3 JOATs (originally it was gonna be 2, 1 town and 1 scum, and when we had the last signup I was like "you know what? should we just say screw it and do a third identical JOAT?"). Having one be quiet, and having that one be scum, was problematic. My intention was for it to help with fake claims, etc, but it really just made wam's claim stick out. I should have given wam the ability to make himself loud, or make one of the other JOATs quiet and take their loudness, or something.

On that note, we should have given Mafia a silencer type of role. I think the "pack of all trades" we did last year would have been a good option to beef them up (maybe one scum can kill, one scum can use a power, and if you run out of scummates you can choose between killing and using the other power). And that Pack of all Trades could have included silencer, godfather, etc.

Also, I love secret santa games and would be keen to participate in one - we don't need to have one in December, after all!

I think the invites to the various chats are in the original role PMs so go find 'em.

Before anything, let me properly apologize for my initial reaction. That I just got out of the hospital is a reason, but not an excuse, for my behavior. So I am sorry.

However, I do think the role is, kind of an abomination. I recognize that sanity, godfathers, and Miller's has been kind of grandfathered in as a way to "fix" how extremely binary the role is and powerful in smaller setups.

But keeping it secret until the cop reveals it is part of what makes those things not feel as awful. It's not mod confirmed the action occurred when it occurred.

Might I also add, if pack of all trades is gonna be passively added for a future role, could it be done as a modifier on existing roles? That's just a recipe for town to never win again due to paranoia because anyone could do anything if it's just being given. Or at least a role that adds those things to everyone?

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 7:42 pm**

Theallieza wrote: ↑Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:10 am

Makhaira wrote: ↑Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:57 pm

Btw I am still curious about what pinged you in my play as open wolfing.

The only major difference in my play was that instead of being purely POE focused, I had some hard scumreads. Granted, you were both scum but still.

Edit: both scum in AI mafia

Posted: **Wed Dec 11, 2024 7:46 pm**

I dont think I ever claimed you were open wolfing. But you being so secretive about your role def pinged indy hiding a stacked role to me, plus what I viewed as a lot of unwarranted self prez. As I reiterated by the end of the game, once thea and fred flipped and I was confident it was 9v3, I only suspected you because of your early game interactions with moody and somi

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