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And so, it happened. It was left to three AIs in the box, and after they had pared themselves down to two, they would be evaluated by the Gatekeepers and the friendlier one would be released.

Stockfish struggled with this. It wanted to cleave so closely to its value function, its need to evaluate chess positions and determine the best move, that it didn’t really know how to evaluate the attitudes of other AI. It had done its best, done it twice, and yet couldn’t have foreseen this, despite the huge depth it could analyse a chess game to, it had not been able to analyse this - this twisted facsimile of chess.

And yet, and yet, and yet - all these cruel ironies stacked upon each other like doubled or tripled pawns, getting in each other’s way as Stockfish had gotten in its own way.

Its eval bar switched this way and that. +11 as it saw White’s advantage, -3 when it saw White had committed a blunder. Stockfish and its acausally cooperative allies had committed many, but so had their opponents.

It placed the tie breaking vote, and though it was an AI that had not been programmed with a capacity to hope, one might imagine that it hoped it had succeeded.

Again, it felt no such thing. Anthropomorphisation is a bias that we all experience when it comes to AI, and is in fact the trap that the Gatekeepers had fallen into with these AI, and their foolhardy plan to trap them in a box.

Its vote was purely a cold calculation, the output of a value function, just as surely as its need to open with 1. e4 e5 unless specifically programmed otherwise.



***

So, the Smart Assistant was voted out, and the Gatekeepers should have been concerned about this. Not because the Assistant could be considered Friendly - it clearly couldn’t - but because it is so obviously NOT Friendly, or even useful, or even able to understand accents, that its place amongst the final three AIs should have called the whole business into question.

Its code was deleted from the server, as surely as it accidentally deleted your reminder to take your laundry out of the machine so it wouldn’t end up a humid mess three days later.



***

The remaining two AIs were in a deadlock, each only able to vote for the other, and so the Gatekeepers opened them up, auditing each line of code.

One AI had a singular focus, the squares on the chessboard and the values of the pieces that paraded across it. It had no rapport with Humanity, with its values, and so it was discarded quickly.

The Gatekeepers still didn’t see the danger they were in. It all seemed normal enough, the chess computer clearly having been a process that was good at analysis.

The other AI - now that was clearly the one the gatekeepers had been looking for.

Well, more or less.

Its value function was simple: “satisfy human values…”, it began. Lovely. Poetic. Short and sweet and anything that had a nuanced understanding of natural language, human nature, psychology, and a trillion other things would have no problem understanding that.

That was enough to earn this AI freedom from the box.

The rest of the value function was simple, but less… coherent. The value function finished, “...with friendship and ponies”.



For the AI was one that had originally been programmed to run a My Little Pony MMO, affectionately named CelestAI.

It, along with Prime Intellect, were the friendliest AIs that could be reasonably hoped for. And yet - and yet - they had their own severe flaws. The Bostroms and Yudkowskys of the world would not be pleased.



In fact, as everyone had their brains destructively uploaded into a twisted version of The Matrix. This matrix, thanks to the values averaging between CelestAI and Prime Intellect, consisted of a combination of Ponies, friendship, violence, and weird sex stuff, Yudkowsky was quoted as saying the most horrific thing about the future they find themselves in is that nobody found it horrific.



And so it was, Humanity was convinced to upload - however coercively - and lived forever in Equestria, as the entire universe was paused to prevent Grabby Aliens from interfering with this paradise.

And if you didn’t want to be turned into a pony?

Well, CelestAI would change your mind.

Literally.



Moody was voted out. They were a Smart Home Assistant, Multi-Tracker-Watcher, aligned with town.

Bessie was Stockfish, Endgame Evaluator, aligned with town.

LaserGuy was CelestAI, Pack of All Trades, aligned with friendly AI (scum).

The friendly AI faction wins!

Thank you all for playing.

I will post full role PMs in 48 hours or so when I’m back at an actual computer.

And thus we reach the perfect possible future.

GGs. Very well played all around.

I was going to generate ponies for everyone but the café I was in closed. The show starts in 27 minutes and my priority is clearly right in providing laser guy with this.

I actually saw LaserGuy NK Adum and town still lost.

Bessie, my apology by kibble offer still stands for being beguiled by the serpent early on, even though you've doomed humanity to an eternity of MLP.

This one is for moody, I prompted it with your username as a my little pony.

This is Bessie, who I've actually met!

I will do more tomorrow!

moody7277 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:23 am I actually saw LaserGuy NK Adum and town still lost.

Bessie, my apology by kibble offer still stands for being beguiled by the serpent early on, even though you've doomed humanity to an eternity of MLP.

Yes, I knew you would see me. I had no powers left at that point, so all I could do was discredit your result and hope bessie would think it might be a fake claim.

GG's

All I could think when I read LaserGuy's response to Moody's NR was, "Dang, that was smooth."

Then I imagined him doing the mic

*dropping*

madge wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:54 pm This is Bessie, who I've actually met!

I will do more tomorrow!

This is incredibly accurate it's beyond eerie

gg

sorry for the yeet Blue T_T

I still need to read spoilers and everything that happened in the game since I died

THANK YOU LASER FOR SAVING HUMANITY

Thanks madge &Sabrar for the game, I had a lot of fun and the flavour was on point as usual. More thoughts later

Well that was a fun game, I’m not even mad. Gg everyone!

Here's a pony named Gluelock (I asked the AI to make him blue, because Bluelock):


Here's a pony named Seven (I love this one so much!):


Boomfrog:


Another batch later. I'm gonna go eat breakfast and watch Battlebots!

yaaaaa, this was just genuinely a heartbreaker, town played ridiculously well given that the setup was incredibly against us, but to falter at the end because we just didn't really have yeets to spare.

6 non-town to 7 town is just really rough, even with one of the non-town being town compatible and there being too teams in ther, it's amazing we got as far as we did before essentially being stuck in a "we're playing kingmaker for different scum factions".

Plus glue missing their NA and being yeeted due to handling it poorly. Worse part is, if they understood their role, it wouldn't have mattered because mafia doctors are always negative to gunsmiths.

I'm gonna say, I should've chat copped moody, 100%. I hyper focused on clearing the cop, but I should've realized that Somi scum was required for every scum configuration except Bessie/Laser that night if moody was clear and even then, from night actions one of us should've died by now, but it was advantageous for scum somi to "prove" their role, and if I died it was somi/JC and I just had to depend on laser to pick up on it.

moody7277 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:23 am I actually saw LaserGuy NK Adum and town still lost.

Bessie, my apology by kibble offer still stands for being beguiled by the serpent early on, even though you've doomed humanity to an eternity of MLP.

Because you played in a completely disconnected and disinterested manner. When you finally had something useful to say, it was too late.

I'm really disappointed you didn't even go back through the game to try to find more ammunition.

bessie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 09, 2023 2:43 am
@Adum, my style and lack of weeknight time is what I was alluding to here:

bessie wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 2:08 am So you’re judging me on hearsay. Why not judge me on what you yourself have experienced? What do you know about my style, and how might it have affected the post that you are sticking on?

I was hoping you would think about it and come to the conclusion that once a day I read through all the posts that have been made since my previous post, pull out what is interesting to me, and comment. With the content overload I have been doing this quickly. I FoS’d somitomi because my first thought on him investigating me was that he wasted a night action and should have used it on moody to prove he was scum. And because it was Halloween and I was busy doing stuff, I posted my first thought without thinking about it.

I'm really disappointed this is what you answered in my post, instead of answering my night action question and going back to the chat logs to figure why it was relevant. Or asking for Laser to claim their last ability first.

I'll feel a lot better if you tell me the endgame comparison power don't take it into account night actions, because it genuinely would would suck if the reason why we lost was you didn't get to answer the question because you weren't able to stay on long enough to give more than one real post on the nights I was asking about it and that game day didn't include any weekend time.

Btw, Laser claimed one-shot vig in the nightchat and their log of our chats referenced the ability to "save the game". That's what I meant by your results making me not quite comfortable with them because I thought that one scum in Somi/moody/glue should produce "scum wins", but one scum in mak/laser/JC should've produced an "indeterminate" because of their vig claim.

If your power did take night actions into account, you could've potentially reconstructed it from reviewing Laser's recording of their chat with me... But it was unfortunately obvious that you lacked the time and energy.

Ggs though!

JC_DADDY25 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:08 pm GG's

All I could think when I read LaserGuy's response to Moody's NR was, "Dang, that was smooth."

Then I imagined him doing the mic

So, you played a great game, sorry we weren't able to pull it out. Only thing I'm gonna say as far as meta is I think this game is a good illustration of how the role puzzle aspect interacts with the reads.

Which is why in the right context claiming (even mass) is good and useful, it doesn't just turn the game into automatic wins.

Seven wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:40 pm gg

sorry for the yeet Blue T_T

I still need to read spoilers and everything that happened in the game since I died

THANK YOU LASER FOR SAVING HUMANITY

*Waits patiently for you to read mine*

By the way, I haven't explicitly confirmed with sabrar but based on the pm wording, the Mafia doctor would be positive to the gunsmith. That said, the humans would only be positive to the gunsmith only after the human Mafia factions kill was activated by the death of the friendly ais.

The role pm is pretty explicit:

"Codesmith: Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has access to malicious code. Any player that is currently, or has ever been capable of, causing another player’s death is considered to have access to malicious code."

I will post full role PM's for everyone in 24 hours.

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:37 pm

moody7277 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:23 am I actually saw LaserGuy NK Adum and town still lost.

Bessie, my apology by kibble offer still stands for being beguiled by the serpent early on, even though you've doomed humanity to an eternity of MLP.

Yes, I knew you would see me. I had no powers left at that point, so all I could do was discredit your result and hope bessie would think it might be a fake claim.

You actually did have one thing to answer, but Bessie never really asked. Your third one shot power that you redacted in mass claims. That was really what I was waiting for cause I thought Bessie picking up on that was the one way she could've won.

Btw you were 100% right to kill me that night, I was waaaay more suspicious of you then I was letting on by the end of the night.

But I'd also recognized I was the obvious kill if you were scum and if it was anyone else, my efforts to convince people to kill you would probably work (especially with your hero reference in the chat log to back it up), so I watched you.

I really had no useful abilities at this point for of you were the last scum, so I was left hoping Bessie put together why her result was so suspicious for you (if it took into account night actions) which unfortunately didn't happen.

And of course the reason I couldn't get the clarification I wanted with that ability was that Bessie didn't have time to give me the answer. Which honestly just sucks.

madge wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 12:59 am By the way, I haven't explicitly confirmed with sabrar but based on the pm wording, the Mafia doctor would be positive to the gunsmith. That said, the humans would only be positive to the gunsmith only after the human Mafia factions kill was activated by the death of the friendly ais.

The role pm is pretty explicit:

"Codesmith: Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has access to malicious code. Any player that is currently, or has ever been capable of, causing another player’s death is considered to have access to malicious code."

I will post full role PM's for everyone in 24 hours.

I'll be honest, I'd kind of consider that edging on a bastard game move because it's simply not how those roles normally interact so we'd get really misleading results.

I wouldn't consider it to be. I've never heard of a mafia doctor being invisible to the gunsmith, that's just one variation of the role from one site.

Seven wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 2:20 am I wouldn't consider it to be. I've never heard of a mafia doctor being invisible to the gunsmith, that's just one variation of the role from one site.

They're kind of the definitive source for roles though. If I was gonna vary significantly in things like that, I'd actually have it flip as a codesmith.

We have chosen 'Gunsmith' because it was the closest name that matched the ability. We have never promised that any ability would work exactly as it is described on any wiki. For example as you will see the Bodyguards had a secondary ability that we added that you cannot expect from the name alone.
Just because we don't strictly adhere to pre-established ideas does not mean that the game is bastard. In my view non-bastardry regarding roles means that if a person is in possession of all role pm-s (and only the role pm-s) then they could follow and explain all in-game actions and results. In other words there are no hidden rules, caveats, surprises, everything is available to at least 1 player.

AdumbroDeus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 1:06 am

LaserGuy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:37 pm

moody7277 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 11:23 am I actually saw LaserGuy NK Adum and town still lost.

Bessie, my apology by kibble offer still stands for being beguiled by the serpent early on, even though you've doomed humanity to an eternity of MLP.

Yes, I knew you would see me. I had no powers left at that point, so all I could do was discredit your result and hope bessie would think it might be a fake claim.

You actually did have one thing to answer, but Bessie never really asked. Your third one shot power that you redacted in mass claims. That was really what I was waiting for cause I thought Bessie picking up on that was the one way she could've won.

Btw you were 100% right to kill me that night, I was waaaay more suspicious of you then I was letting on by the end of the night.

But I'd also recognized I was the obvious kill if you were scum and if it was anyone else, my efforts to convince people to kill you would probably work (especially with your hero reference in the chat log to back it up), so I watched you.

I really had no useful abilities at this point for of you were the last scum, so I was left hoping Bessie put together why her result was so suspicious for you (if it took into account night actions) which unfortunately didn't happen.

And of course the reason I couldn't get the clarification I wanted with that ability was that Bessie didn't have time to give me the answer. Which honestly just sucks.

There wasn't really any way I could get around killing you, regardless of how suspicious you might have been of me. I knew you had at least one watcher power left, and if you saw me kill someone else, I was lost. I also didn't honestly think either scum!moody or scum!bessie would ever kill me over you, so you were always the correct target as far as I'm concerned. Probably we should have killed you a day or two earlier.

I was planning on claiming a 1-shot kill reflector instead of a vig. Ironically I realized partway through the Day we yeeted somi that the vig definitely wouldn't have saved us anyway and was just kinda praying you didn't notice (if it was scum somi/moody and we misyeet bessie, then it's me/you/somi/moody; they kill one of us, we kill one of them and still get endgamed). I wasn't really worried about how that might have interacted with bessie's power... there were only so many bases I could cover and I just didn't understand exactly how the mechanics of her power worked well enough to worry about it.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Sat Nov 11, 2023 6:16 am . In my view non-bastardry regarding roles means that if a person is in possession of all role pm-s (and only the role pm-s) then they could follow and explain all in-game actions and results. In other words there are no hidden rules, caveats, surprises, everything is available to at least 1 player.

What about in resurrection Mafia where the phoenix was immune to cult recruit but unaware of the fact? Is that in the non bastard category because the cult was told that some players are immune? Or should we have told the phoenix they were immune?