HaiLOWEEN 2023: AI apocalypse

[AdumbroDeus]

They did actually check the thread at one point last night, I think they just kind of gave up at this point.

Yeah, peace out

Vote: somitomi

Well, okay then.

Thanks for confirming in case people doubt me, sorry it had to happen like this.

Based on what I can tell you played a pretty good game. Hope there's no hard feelings.

+1 to this, I think this was a really solid scum game from somi.

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@everyone: btw how good is somi at picking up breadcrumbs

FWIW, breadcrumbs don't come up super commonly here so I think the sample size on almost any player is very small.

That said, for Somi, my experience is he often struggles to keep up with the pace of the game and I think rarely has the time to pore over the thread for things like that. I've scummed with him once or twice before and I don't recall it ever coming up.

@bessie and Laserguy: same question about moody.

Not sure. I don't recall it ever coming up in a significant way with him one way or the other. I've never played scum with him that I can recall, so I'm not super familiar with his process.

Thanks Laser, any other thoughts or insights on people's interactions with Somi prior to when I revealed my guilty?

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[AdumbroDeus]

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Oh and I forgot to mention:

Can you explain exactly how your power works? Is "inconclusive" a possible result? My impression was you basically just get to see "is there at least 1 scum in this group of 3 players"? I don't think having a 3 player endgame should ever give an inconclusive result--in that case either I'm a killer and can win by killing one and endgaming the other, or Mak inherits a kill and can do the same, or somehow Mak endgames us through some other mechanic. Presumably if there were 1 human and 1 townie left, the human has to win... otherwise they basically have no winning potential in any situation.

Bessie, this needs further explanation, my understanding was that it meant "at least one scum" was in the group, now that you're suggesting 2, that's a very different kettle of fish.

We need a more complete explanation.")

[bessie]

Daily bark!

No it’s because of my night results. If there were exactly one scum from each of two teams in my target group, I should have an inconclusive result, not “scum wins”. With JC flipping town and Mak being the last human, Laser is probably not scum.

If it's 2-1 going into night, scum kills, it's 1-1 which leads to no elim, and scum wins.

If its 1-1-1 going into the night, indeterminate. So it can’t be Town Gluelock, Human Mak, and BadAI LaserGuy.

Can you explain exactly how your power works? Is "inconclusive" a possible result? My impression was you basically just get to see "is there at least 1 scum in this group of 3 players"? I don't think having a 3 player endgame should ever give an inconclusive result--in that case either I'm a killer and can win by killing one and endgaming the other, or Mak inherits a kill and can do the same, or somehow Mak endgames us through some other mechanic. Presumably if there were 1 human and 1 townie left, the human has to win... otherwise they basically have no winning potential in any situation.

Yes I target three players and find out who wins if night starts with only those three players and there is no interference with my action. I find out if town wins, scum wins, or the results are indeterminate, which I interpret as indeterminate until specific night actions are considered. So if you’re the killer, the result would be determined by your choice of night target.

I worded it poorly because I didn’t want to quote my role pm. But this is a Sabrar game; there will be no inconclusive endgame, but it requires player input to resolve.

Bessie: two things really stick out to me, first is that the case on Somi is... Well dog poop. If Somi believed Bessie they'd know moody to be scum, therefore the logical step was to confirm Bessie not reinforce what they already knew, a bad case against actual scum could potentially be distance. Secondly, the insistance that Boomfrog didn't protect glue, I understand not immediately picking up the breadcrumb, but when it's shown, idk a resistance to clearing people?

Um, that’s not the only time this game I have expressed suspicion of somitomi.
I am not convinced that Gluelock was the NK target. And I am not convinced George’s protection did anything.

@everyone:[/u] btw how good is somi at picking up breadcrumbs

@bessie and Laserguy: same question about moody.

I don’t pay attention to breadcrumbs. And they can be faked anyway.

Bessie, this needs further explanation, my understanding was that it meant "at least one scum" was in the group, now that you're suggesting 2, that's a very different kettle of fish.

We need a more complete explanation.")

I dont’ think I’ve ever claimed that there was one and only one scum in each grouping.

I have strong reason to believe there is at least one scum in moody, Gluelock, and somitomi. They should be our elimination pool.

I’ve already claimed everything I’m going to claim. I have a result that strongly indicates there is at least on scum in [moody, somitomi, Gluelock]. Out of the three, I feel best about moody. Therefore, I would prefer to eliminate somitomi or Gluelock.

If Gluelock, somitomi, and moody are the final three on the last night, scum wins.

I claimed my actual result.

If Gluelock, somitomi, and moody are the final three on the last night, scum wins.

Yes I have a result that if night starts with only moody, somi, and Gluelock, then scum win.

I have reason to believe there is at least one scum in [Makhaira, LaserGuy, JC].

Mind expanding on that?

Ok. If Mak, LaserGuy, and JC are the final three on the last night, scum wins.

can you post your other tested pool again please for ease of visibility. If your abilitybis is to be trusted we can probably do some simple probability assessments based on your pools and any overlap they share

A night that starts with only Gluelock, somitomi, and moody alive will result in a scum win.
A night that starts with only Mak, LaserGuy, and JC alive will result in a scum win.

Night 1: No action
Night 2: Gluelock, somitomi, and moody
Night 3: Mak, LaserGuy, and JC

Since my result was “scum wins” I think that neither grouping has exactly one member of each team (unless there is a team with no kill) or I should have received an inconclusive result.

My role pm says it’s a targeting ability, and can be interfered with.

Yes I target three players and find out who would win if night starts with only those three players. And both the results was that scum would win. Just "scum" not "Human" or other possible scum faction.

is it clear now.PNG (77.82 KiB) Viewed 32755 times

[AdumbroDeus]

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Can you explain exactly how your power works? Is "inconclusive" a possible result? My impression was you basically just get to see "is there at least 1 scum in this group of 3 players"? I don't think having a 3 player endgame should ever give an inconclusive result--in that case either I'm a killer and can win by killing one and endgaming the other, or Mak inherits a kill and can do the same, or somehow Mak endgames us through some other mechanic. Presumably if there were 1 human and 1 townie left, the human has to win... otherwise they basically have no winning potential in any situation.

Yes I target three players and find out who wins if night starts with only those three players and there is no interference with my action. I find out if town wins, scum wins, or the results are indeterminate, which I interpret as indeterminate until specific night actions are considered. So if you’re the killer, the result would be determined by your choice of night target.

I worded it poorly because I didn’t want to quote my role pm. But this is a Sabrar game; there will be no inconclusive endgame, but it requires player input to resolve.

That makes my head hurt, maybe it's because I'm at work and distracrd but I'm having difficulty parsing this properly.

Bessie: two things really stick out to me, first is that the case on Somi is... Well dog poop. If Somi believed Bessie they'd know moody to be scum, therefore the logical step was to confirm Bessie not reinforce what they already knew, a bad case against actual scum could potentially be distance. Secondly, the insistance that Boomfrog didn't protect glue, I understand not immediately picking up the breadcrumb, but when it's shown, idk a resistance to clearing people?

Um, that’s not the only time this game I have expressed suspicion of somitomi.

I meant toDay, apologies for lack of clarification, but I wasn't implying it was the only time you expressed suspicion.

I am not convinced that Gluelock was the NK target.

Yes, that's the issue.

And I am not convinced George’s protection did anything.

Setup Notes:
This setup is Non-Bastard. Per Mafiascum's definition of a 'bastard game', this setup is guaranteed free from:
• Cults, secret wincons, other mid-game alignment changes
• Moderator lies that can't be reasonably anticipated
• Post restrictions
• Spoiler reading or listening roles

Publicly announced protect not doing anything is a lie that can't be reasonably anticipated.

@everyone:[/u] btw how good is somi at picking up breadcrumbs

@bessie and Laserguy: same question about moody.

I don’t pay attention to breadcrumbs. And they can be faked anyway.

I'm not asking for your perspective, I'm asking for your knowledge of other players.

Bessie, this needs further explanation, my understanding was that it meant "at least one scum" was in the group, now that you're suggesting 2, that's a very different kettle of fish.

We need a more complete explanation.")

I dont’ think I’ve ever claimed that there was one and only one scum in each grouping.

I said "at least one", not "one and only one".

Odd error.

I have strong reason to believe there is at least one scum in moody, Gluelock, and somitomi. They should be our elimination pool.

I’ve already claimed everything I’m going to claim. I have a result that strongly indicates there is at least on scum in [moody, somitomi, Gluelock]. Out of the three, I feel best about moody. Therefore, I would prefer to eliminate somitomi or Gluelock.

If Gluelock, somitomi, and moody are the final three on the last night, scum wins.

I claimed my actual result.

If Gluelock, somitomi, and moody are the final three on the last night, scum wins.

Yes I have a result that if night starts with only moody, somi, and Gluelock, then scum win.

I have reason to believe there is at least one scum in [Makhaira, LaserGuy, JC].

Mind expanding on that?

Ok. If Mak, LaserGuy, and JC are the final three on the last night, scum wins.

can you post your other tested pool again please for ease of visibility. If your abilitybis is to be trusted we can probably do some simple probability assessments based on your pools and any overlap they share

A night that starts with only Gluelock, somitomi, and moody alive will result in a scum win.
A night that starts with only Mak, LaserGuy, and JC alive will result in a scum win.

Night 1: No action
Night 2: Gluelock, somitomi, and moody
Night 3: Mak, LaserGuy, and JC

Since my result was “scum wins” I think that neither grouping has exactly one member of each team (unless there is a team with no kill) or I should have received an inconclusive result.

My role pm says it’s a targeting ability, and can be interfered with.

Yes I target three players and find out who would win if night starts with only those three players. And both the results was that scum would win. Just "scum" not "Human" or other possible scum faction.

is it clear now.PNG

Nope, but I'll relook at your explanation to laser when I have more time to try to parse it properly.

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[AdumbroDeus]

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To clarify, what's irking me is this. I know Bessie tunnels, but Seven talked about how scum Bessie gives no quarter to her target, treats everything as suspicious even when they're not.

That's why going after Somi for a reasonable targeting choice in their position sticks out here whereas Laser noting their passivity when they should think they've solved the game is strange.

That's why I'm concerned.

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[AdumbroDeus]

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EBWOP:

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That's why going after Somi for a reasonable targeting choice in their position sticks out here whereas Laser noting their passivity when they should think they've solved the game isn't strange.

That's why I'm concerned.

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Corrected is to isn't, it's supposed to be saying that Laser's critique of Somi toDay isn't strange but Bessie's critique of Somi toDay sticks out.

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[moody7277]

If its 1-1-1 going into the night, indeterminate. So it can’t be Town Gluelock, Human Mak, and BadAI LaserGuy.

The groups were {Glue, me, somi} and {JC, Mak, LG} (which your later quotes show). Glue's flip is why I'm going to be voting somi in about 24 hours. JC being town and Mak being human would need LG to be part of the killing scum to fulfill your 1-1-1 idea, but that still sounds like killing scum win to me, which is what your result said.

[LaserGuy]

Thanks Laser, any other thoughts or insights on people's interactions with Somi prior to when I revealed my guilty?

There's a few things I jotted down of interest.

I think somi's target and result are probably not helpful in terms of finding the partner, unfortunately. I think bessie was the correct play for Town!somi (since he clears bessie and implicates moody), and I think scum!somi would have figured that out. somi isn't opposed to bussing, but he doesn't like making affirmative cases on people unless he absolutely has to, so I think he's always going to give a 'no chat' result if he can help it here. He wouldn't give a 'chat' result on bessie since that would mean they would end up locked in death tunnels on each other, regardless if she's a buddy. No chat result gives him the flexibility of scumreading both me and moody to is able swing between depending on which way Town is leaning. (FWIW, I think this analysis holds true even for scum!me as well).

I agree with you that it's a little strange that bessie is focusing on somi targeting her as a reason to scumread him since I think objectively somi was always going to target bessie here regardless of his alignment.

I find it interesting that none of bessie/moody/somi seem to have really thought through the implications of a framer in the game. Framer targets are usually persistent, so Mak's N1 target would still affect bessie's N3 result. I think there is a fairly non-trivial chance that bessie has at least one framer target in her pools. I am giving a little side-eye to bessie for being so nonchalant about the possibility. Given how many targets moody had and how few positive results he's claimed, I'm reasonably convinced the framer does not effect him, but I find it strange he's putting more stock in bessie's result than yours. Uh... actually, just looking through moody's posting, I'm not sure he's been reading the thread other than to respond to pings to him? He responded to this random quote from bessie, but didn't comment on your result or subsequent developments.

I think this post points against a bessie/somi pairing. It feels to me like somi did actually expect bessie was going to have a result and was feeling her out before he committed.

I don't like that moody didn't target somi despite thinking him basically confscum. JC was a very odd tracker choice from moody's POV. Especially given that moody claims he believes there is a serial killer, this feels like very much the wrong approach to support that view. FWIW, this SK thought pings me hard because it's the type of thinking to potentially gives scum the opportunity to broader their target base to include more generally townread players or reinterpret certain results--most notably somi's results--as non-clearing.

[LaserGuy]

My working theory is that scum is moody/somi. They knew one of them was likely to go down due to bessie's result, and planned on bussing hard today, in hopes of clearing the other. Kill target was presumably Adum to prevent exactly what happened.

[AdumbroDeus]

I find it interesting that none of bessie/moody/somi seem to have really thought through the implications of a framer in the game. Framer targets are usually persistent, so Mak's N1 target would still affect bessie's N3 result.

Uh, what?

I was under the impression framer usually just worked for that night (same with tailor or lawyer). That would really change the implications of Bessie's results. Does framer normally affect psuedo-cop roles, like gunsmith and chat cop? I was assuming yes because it would give the attributes normally associated with the role but if it turns you into a permanent miller that seems a bit much.

I think there is a fairly non-trivial chance that bessie has at least one framer target in her pools. I am giving a little side-eye to bessie for being so nonchalant about the possibility. Given how many targets moody had and how few positive results he's claimed, I'm reasonably convinced the framer does not effect him, but I find it strange he's putting more stock in bessie's result than yours. Uh... actually, just looking through moody's posting, I'm not sure he's been reading the thread other than to respond to pings to him? He responded to this random quote from bessie, but didn't comment on your result or subsequent developments.

I'm noting that Bessie didn't comment on it either, given that moody would've already perceived it as one of them being scum regardless of alignment and Bessie seemed convinced of the accuracy and seems to think it means they're both scum maybe they just view my results as trivial.

Which in retrospect, I probably should've targeted Bessie, but because of that implication on the framer role, at least it isn't worthless.

I think this post points against a bessie/somi pairing. It feels to me like somi did actually expect bessie was going to have a result and was feeling her out before he committed.

You're right. That is another point against Bessie/Somi. Also that she brought them to the limelight in the first place when they were trying to blend as well.

I don't like that moody didn't target somi despite thinking him basically confscum. JC was a very odd tracker choice from moody's POV. Especially given that moody claims he believes there is a serial killer, this feels like very much the wrong approach to support that view. FWIW, this SK thought pings me hard because it's the type of thinking to potentially gives scum the opportunity to broader their target base to include more generally townread players or reinterpret certain results--most notably somi's results--as non-clearing.

I think it's more that it runs counter to their belief that it's an SK that's the problem, because Somi was already confirmed scum to moody if they were town so what more info would they gain? Same with Bessie's critique of Moody's target. All they gain is more ammunition to argue it.

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[AdumbroDeus]

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Oh forgot this.

Moody seems very adamant that they're much surer that Bessie is town than anyone else is. Which also fits them trusting Bessie's results much more than mine.

Scum moody would probably have come in hoping to sheep Bessie and convince her to be their pocket town in 3 man yeet or lose.

Which makes the quote pretty notable actually, it's the core of what they need to defend from if they're scum to get Bessie to vote for me or you, whoever survives toNight. Bessie suggesting her results suggest 2 scum in somi/moody would pull the rug out from under scum-moody's plans.

Which makes the quote seem a lot less random honestly.

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[LaserGuy]

I find it interesting that none of bessie/moody/somi seem to have really thought through the implications of a framer in the game. Framer targets are usually persistent, so Mak's N1 target would still affect bessie's N3 result.

Uh, what?

I was under the impression framer usually just worked for that night (same with tailor or lawyer). That would really change the implications of Bessie's results. Does framer normally affect psuedo-cop roles, like gunsmith and chat cop? I was assuming yes because it would give the attributes normally associated with the role but if it turns you into a permanent miller that seems a bit much.

I've definitely played with a framer that behaved this way, but looking at more standard rules it may not always be persistent so maybe it isn't so clear. Dunno how it affects other roles. Presumably it must affect at least some other roles because the actual cop was human. I don't think the framer would exist just to mess with bessie.

I think it's more that it runs counter to their belief that it's an SK that's the problem, because Somi was already confirmed scum to moody if they were town so what more info would they gain? Same with Bessie's critique of Moody's target. All they gain is more ammunition to argue it.

Seeing if somi performed the night kill would still have been useful info, I think? If moody had tracked somi and seen he only visited bessie, then he'd know there was another scum out there at least.

[LaserGuy]

Just noticed deadline is at 4:00 am for me. Thankfully I think any sort of EoD scramble is pretty unlikely

[AdumbroDeus]

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I find it interesting that none of bessie/moody/somi seem to have really thought through the implications of a framer in the game. Framer targets are usually persistent, so Mak's N1 target would still affect bessie's N3 result.

Uh, what?

I was under the impression framer usually just worked for that night (same with tailor or lawyer). That would really change the implications of Bessie's results. Does framer normally affect psuedo-cop roles, like gunsmith and chat cop? I was assuming yes because it would give the attributes normally associated with the role but if it turns you into a permanent miller that seems a bit much.

I've definitely played with a framer that behaved this way, but looking at more standard rules it may not always be persistent so maybe it isn't so clear. Dunno how it affects other roles. Presumably it must affect at least some other roles because the actual cop was human. I don't think the framer would exist just to mess with bessie.

I could see it messing with just Bessie if it's permanent. Bessie's ability is sounding significantly more powerful than I thought I first glance, even with only a two shot and building up a list of people that are millers for it actively harms that it would be more useful to save.

If it works like I originally thought though, then it makes way more sense that works on chat cop and gunsmith as well which would give them utility against otherscum too.

I think it's more that it runs counter to their belief that it's an SK that's the problem, because Somi was already confirmed scum to moody if they were town so what more info would they gain? Same with Bessie's critique of Moody's target. All they gain is more ammunition to argue it.

Seeing if somi performed the night kill would still have been useful info, I think? If moody had tracked somi and seen he only visited bessie, then he'd know there was another scum out there at least.

Ya, that's what I'm getting at. It's weird to not track Somi because they explicitly stated they thought last scum was an SK so confirming that would be what's important. However if they thought there was another scum it would make sense to ignore the confirmed scum somi (to a theoretical town moody) to try to find their partner.

I realized this while responding to your post.

Just noticed deadline is at 4:00 am for me. Thankfully I think any sort of EoD scramble is pretty unlikely

7 am here >_>

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[LaserGuy]

Probably a good idea to hammer tonight to prevent any last minute shenanigans.

[AdumbroDeus]

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I agree, but we should wait til Bessie gets on.

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[moody7277]

Scum moody would probably have come in hoping to sheep Bessie and convince her to be their pocket town in 3 man yeet or lose.

Except I'm never in a 3 person ELO situation (maybe twice in several dozen games, one of which was a Dethy that started with 5 people), so I have zero experience to do cogent strategizing with.

Probably a good idea to hammer tonight to prevent any last minute shenanigans.

Agree with this, will probably put down my marker sometime after we hear from bessie.

[AdumbroDeus]

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Gonna try to make more sense of Bessie's statements about their power while I have a minute since I've actually slept and I'm not at work.

Scum moody would probably have come in hoping to sheep Bessie and convince her to be their pocket town in 3 man yeet or lose.

Except I'm never in a 3 person ELO situation (maybe twice in several dozen games, one of which was a Dethy that started with 5 people), so I have zero experience to do cogent strategizing with.

Not sure how that's relevant. It's not a hyper sophisticated strategy that requires many many trips to yeet or lose.

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[AdumbroDeus]

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Ok, rereading Bessie's statements, I'm not entirely sure how to parse it.

Because, it would seem my initial read is correct that based on the wording, that if there was at least one scum in the group "scum wins" would be the result because of the night kill.

Unless it also takes into account night actions, eg, if there was one scum and there's for example a vig or doctor in the group. Is that what you meant by player input @bessie?

Because neither of Gluelock didn't have a power that could make it indeterminate and Moody hasn't claimed one. So I'm not getting where it suggests 2 scum in them.

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[bessie]

Daily bark!

I am not convinced that Gluelock was the NK target.

Yes, that's the issue.

How so? You don’t know scum’s powers. You know somi used a chat cop on you. What if he’s a JOAT?

And I am not convinced George’s protection did anything.

Setup Notes:
This setup is Non-Bastard. Per Mafiascum's definition of a 'bastard game', this setup is guaranteed free from:
• Cults, secret wincons, other mid-game alignment changes
• Moderator lies that can't be reasonably anticipated
• Post restrictions
• Spoiler reading or listening roles

Publicly announced protect not doing anything is a lie that can't be reasonably anticipated.

George was a mafia doctor. If a mafia doc doesn’t protect townies from the night kill, I wouldn’t really consider that a mod lie. We just don’t know what the power does.

To clarify, what's irking me is this. I know Bessie tunnels, but Seven talked about how scum Bessie gives no quarter to her target, treats everything as suspicious even when they're not.

So you’re judging me on hearsay. Why not judge me on what you yourself have experienced? What do you know about my style, and how might it have affected the post that you are sticking on?

I find it interesting that none of bessie/moody/somi seem to have really thought through the implications of a framer in the game.

I have. But if you are town, framed town, or scum then it doesn’t matter for my results because I only get “scum wins” not “humans win” or “AI wins”.

I was under the impression framer usually just worked for that night (same with tailor or lawyer). That would really change the implications of Bessie's results.

No it doesn’t.
Human Mak, AI Laser, and Town JC leads to “scum wins”.
Human Mak, Town Laser, and Town JC leads to “scum wins” (assuming Mak as the only scum has acquired a kill).

I'm noting that Bessie didn't comment on it either, given that moody would've already perceived it as one of them being scum regardless of alignment and Bessie seemed convinced of the accuracy and seems to think it means they're both scum maybe they just view my results as trivial.

Wut? I’ve been doing almost nothing but commenting on my ability all Day.

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Ok, rereading Bessie's statements, I'm not entirely sure how to parse it.

Because, it would seem my initial read is correct that based on the wording, that if there was at least one scum in the group "scum wins" would be the result because of the night kill.

Unless it also takes into account night actions, eg, if there was one scum and there's for example a vig or doctor in the group. Is that what you meant by player input @bessie?

Because neither of Gluelock didn't have a power that could make it indeterminate and Moody hasn't claimed one. So I'm not getting where it suggests 2 scum in them.

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I really don’t think I can be any clearer I’ve practically quoted my role pm. There’s nothing to add, and if you don’t get it I don’t see how to better explain it to you.

[AdumbroDeus]

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Daily bark!

I am not convinced that Gluelock was the NK target.

Yes, that's the issue.

How so? You don’t know scum’s powers. You know somi used a chat cop on you. What if he’s a JOAT?

Funny, that is a possibility that crossed my mind but don't have any evidence. I think that might make more sense in this setup for killing scum.

Don't think that really responds to my point though, especially since Seven pointed out that BF is known for breadcrumbing and it provides a reasonable explanation, and Seven is confirmed as town now so I'm inclined to trust her insight when the alternative is we're in a bastard game.

And I am not convinced George’s protection did anything.

Setup Notes:
This setup is Non-Bastard. Per Mafiascum's definition of a 'bastard game', this setup is guaranteed free from:
• Cults, secret wincons, other mid-game alignment changes
• Moderator lies that can't be reasonably anticipated
• Post restrictions
• Spoiler reading or listening roles

Publicly announced protect not doing anything is a lie that can't be reasonably anticipated.

George was a mafia doctor. If a mafia doc doesn’t protect townies from the night kill, I wouldn’t really consider that a mod lie. We just don’t know what the power does.

It was a loud doctor, it was announced that there is a protection and clarified that it was a protection. I might consider "protection against a different type of kill" serviceable, it's still a misleading edge case though, but a mod announced protection not protecting is bastardry, 100%. Even after the flip.

To clarify, what's irking me is this. I know Bessie tunnels, but Seven talked about how scum Bessie gives no quarter to her target, treats everything as suspicious even when they're not.

So you’re judging me on hearsay. Why not judge me on what you yourself have experienced? What do you know about my style, and how might it have affected the post that you are sticking on?

You yourself asked me whether I was taking the thoughts of dead confirmed town seriously (boomfrog if I remember) because of what I did day one and you pointed out that Seven is a good scumhunter, so I have reason to trust her insight.

I read a lot of your games and I feel like this is the kind of subtle personal read that somebody who played with you a lot more might recognize.

But again, I still think moody is far more likely. That was me offering my thoughts on everyone. Tbh, like with laser I'm concerned I'm being too paranoid about you now and laser did make a good point about how somi was feeling you out that suggests you aren't scum together.

I was under the impression framer usually just worked for that night (same with tailor or lawyer). That would really change the implications of Bessie's results.

No it doesn’t.
Human Mak, AI Laser, and Town JC leads to “scum wins”.
Human Mak, Town Laser, and Town JC leads to “scum wins” (assuming Mak as the only scum has acquired a kill).

But I mean is that it makes it MUCH more likely that you'd hit somebody that was framed.

That said it's possible it wouldn't matter unless night action possibilities affect the result.

I'm noting that Bessie didn't comment on it either, given that moody would've already perceived it as one of them being scum regardless of alignment and Bessie seemed convinced of the accuracy and seems to think it means they're both scum maybe they just view my results as trivial.

Wut? I’ve been doing almost nothing but commenting on my ability all Day

.

That wasn't a criticism and it wasn't about your ability, it was about me chat copping Somi.

Laser criticized moody for not commenting on my chat cop, and I pointed out that it would be what they'd think are the same results from your power if they were town and you didn't really either, this was after you implied (on my read) that your ability told you both were town so I was thinking that maybe you both had decided my result was trivial.

In retrospect I think I chose my target poorly.

System.out.println("

Ok, rereading Bessie's statements, I'm not entirely sure how to parse it.

Because, it would seem my initial read is correct that based on the wording, that if there was at least one scum in the group "scum wins" would be the result because of the night kill.

Unless it also takes into account night actions, eg, if there was one scum and there's for example a vig or doctor in the group. Is that what you meant by player input @bessie?

Because neither of Gluelock didn't have a power that could make it indeterminate and Moody hasn't claimed one. So I'm not getting where it suggests 2 scum in them.

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I really don’t think I can be any clearer I’ve practically quoted my role pm. There’s nothing to add, and if you don’t get it I don’t see how to better explain it to you.

Basically, I'm trying to clarify that it would report a "scum wins" if there was at least one scum in the group and no night actions that could kill scum or stop a NK, but if there were actions that could stop a NK or kill scum it would return as "inconclusive" in the same circumstances.

Basically I want to know if potential night action choices could affect it's resolution and that's what was meant by "player input".

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[AdumbroDeus]

System.out.println("

Site was really trying to eat my post there >_>

Great that it's being unstable right at this moment, when it's almost the deadline at yeet or lose.

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[AdumbroDeus]

System.out.println("

Probably a good idea to hammer tonight to prevent any last minute shenanigans.

Agree with this, will probably put down my marker sometime after we hear from bessie.

Mind doing this now?

I will hammer a little bit later tonight but I don't want it forgotten.

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[AdumbroDeus]

System.our.println("

Probably a good idea to hammer tonight to prevent any last minute shenanigans.

Laser, any other thoughts?

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[moody7277]

Vote: somi

L-1