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I will be around at deadline and will try to keep an eye on the thread with some regularity until then

Makhaira wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:37 am boomfrog undermining my TMI bait and now 180ing and saying he town reads me for it feels gross, like he's cutting bait and running

What are you saying here? If I'm scum and the bait was for me and I wouldn't have fallen for it. I could have let it stand and reaped the benefits of your rolefishing.

"I wouldn't have fallen for it" nice unfalsifiable

Im saying that from my perspective, it look liked you were trying to spin my deliberate TMI bait as selfish rolefishing and then when it didn't stick as strongly as an interpretation of my actions as you may have originally envisioned, you decided to back off to avoid blowback and placate me

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:12 am

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:10 pm

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:49 am

My question was about why you're FoSing instead of voting, it's odd you didn't notice that

@Messie could you respond to my question here? Where FoS instead of vote after asking Sabrar why he did that?

Sorry. The nitpicky half of my brain must have been asleep. I don’t vote early and often. I am more generous in sharing FoS’s. I knew I’d have the time and inclination to look at more stuff later on and and think it over and make my vote. Is there some norm I’m not familiar with about voting early and often?

My issue here was your earlier push on "why FoS" to Sabrar. In re-read, it seems less bad, since your Sabrar push was based on *not* unvoting you.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:33 am

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:10 pm You responded in thread within like 3 minutes of Role PMs coming out, though. Then later you said it was at 11:18 your time, not like a last minute end of the night check. I don't know if it's scummy, but it seems weird.

I've received an email notification that I have a new pm on the forum. I checked it, read my role-pm, went to the thread to confirm. Please explain what is weird in this process and what you would have done differently.

I'm not sure how this reckons with the "reloading constantly" discussion with messie then. It's weird that you made a point of not reloading constantly, when you got there through an email notification right after they were sent anyways. I don't really get email notifs for this forum (not sure why) so I can't really speak to that.

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:43 am

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am
My vote is defensive, though, so I'm not moving it.

I want to swap to wam if there's any momentum, though. His vote is opportunistic. No scumread on me. He might be scum with Heury or Sabrar.

I thought your objection to me was just omgus now your saying there is actual logic

But I dont get it I have an actual scum read on you.

Wam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:24 pm I dont get the fos for not seeing something in the OP especially as it was added later. I had completely missed it as well.

@messie I believe scum read OP more than town. Agree or disagree?

This was the strongest thing you found in the *entire* thread for scumminess?

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:56 am Somehow I missed huery out my reads list. Which is impressive given I started with a copy of my old one. Should have looked like

I'm gonna piggyback off this to explain my view on Heury - this error doesn't seem scummy in the same way. The reason I don't like Heury's error is the wording of the reaction - as if the vote was the only thing that alerted him to the scumread.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:27 pm messie does not update their thoughts when new information comes up. This is seen when first they find me scum because of the timing of my confirm post. I later correct the 'facts' that this read was based on. My correction is not acknowledged or mentioned in any way.

I like this point from Sabrar. Another good example of this is the switch from "Heury's scummy so vote" to "Heury's fine but it's defensive so vote". I don't think it's scummy enough to vote on yet and might be related to the hydraness.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:27 pm messie states that they will analyze my content as a whole. They don't do that. They cherry-pick instances that they find scummy. Best seen when they FoS me and somitomi for our interaction. It is not explained how that interaction could point to scum!somitomi or scum!Sabrar, it is just thrown out there.

What does "analyze my content as a whole" look like to you? Analyze every post or every line? Obviously you think it's cherry-picking, but disagreeing with you isn't inherently scummy.

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:09 pm I'm getting town vibes from you, therefore your read on me is incorrect. I have not gotten town vibes from Makhaira. If you were scum would you not jump at the opportunity the vote someone town that you could spin their info as a slip? It's exactly what happened to me last game. And yes I suppose it is partially OMGUS, but decided to lean scum on the fact that I have gotten no town vibe yet and I know their vote is incorrect.

I've touched on how this is circular before (the only given reason for the scumread on Makhaira is the vote, and the vote is scummy because Makhaira is scummy), but it's also incredibly WIFOM. @heuristically_alone what other reason do you have for scumreading Makhaira?

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 1:29 pm - he scum-reads Eido just because Eido did not comment on one particular aspect of the game. This seems very excessive, especially coming from boomfrog who for example did not comment at all on how people find heury scummy because of the mistake. Since heury had 4 votes already at the time of boomfrog's read-list I recon that was also an important topic that would have merited some kind of comment from him.

I mostly agree with this line of reasoning. The whole "Eido is scum because he didn't talk abt me and Sabrar" stuff feels at best tunneling. I also don't see Eido not interacting as strongly as BF does. I will say, though, Eido never did say much on BF's reads list or on the BF and Sabrar stuff - not scummy perse, but I wish he would comment on it in depth. That might just be part of Town!Eido's play style, asking tons of questions.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:54 pm @wam and @sabrar, you are letting Eido's townie tone lull you into complacency. They started the day strongly but then completely failed to be involved when things got serious.

This just reads so weird, tone and all.

Eido wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:41 pm @Sabrar: Just a quick heads up to say I briefly flicked through the Secret Santa game and can see what you are saying now. Overall it looks like Heury is quite clumsy. It's possible Town!Heury felt the pain from this game and makes it an incentive to correct himself next time he slips up.

Unvote
Vote: Boom

@Wam @Mark @Messie Join this?

I said this before, but it's a question of tone in the *response* to the mistake - a laughing emoji versus "hence the vote" feels different to me. Throughout the game Heury's tone has been bad enough for me that I don't put BF being kinda self-centered as more scummy than that, plus the circular reasoning with Mak and lack of innovation. I also honestly prefer someone innovative to someone not-innovative, all things considered. I also don't understand the incentive for Scum!Boom to pull these shenanigans.

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:55 am Messie - Seems to know there are only two mafia. I'm suspicious that boom and messie have planned Sabrar as a mislynch.

@heury do you have a better reason for voting for me or is this all you have?

phillip1882 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:59 pm i decided to vote
vote: messie,
as he'she is the most common choice, besides sabrar

@philip, same question to you. Is this all you have?

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:23 am

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am Like your vote is, the one that's apparently still on me me me me me me me

I have unvoted 2 pages ago. It is uncharacteristic of you not paying attention to my content.

Sabrar, half my brain usually concentrates on work during the day and thinks about the game once a day, where all my thoughts come out in one long howl. The other half of my brain processes those thoughts and makes nice posts out of them, sometimes much later than I thought them up, so the thoughts are not quite in step with the thread by the time I bark them out.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:32 am it troubles me to see messie voting defensively as half of them is very much against the idea.

Yeah and you should know better. Half my brain totally does it whenever necessary.

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:43 am I thought your objection to me was just omgus now your saying there is actual logic

The half that doesn’t OMGUS vote is suspicious of you, refer to this:

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:43 am But I dont get it I have an actual scum read on you.

Wam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:24 pm I dont get the fos for not seeing something in the OP especially as it was added later. I had completely missed it as well.

See this post for something else you conveniently missed:

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:12 am

Sab: You can check timestamp of the edit and see it was added half a day after game started. I generally don't bother to reread gamestarting posts.

It is your interaction with somitomi that is suspicious. My puppy thought is “Why did somitoni ask the question, and why did Sabrar answer as he did?”

somi: Come on, what does it look like I'm doing there with a question mark on the end? I will admit that I couldn't remember if anyone asked that before and neither did I check if the information was out there. I'm not running at 100% mental capacity to be honest.

The mentor note was added after the game started. But regardless, I find it interesting that you don’t seem at all curious in figuring things out.

So wam if you are keeping your vote on me for that reason you really should find another one because your reason is weak.

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:43 am @messie I believe scum read OP more than town. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. It depends on the player, not the role.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:27 pm Sidenote: it would be much easier to analyze messie's posts if we knew how the two halves of their brain combine their thoughts but them's the breaks.

messie does not update their thoughts when new information comes up. This is seen when first they find me scum because of the timing of my confirm post. I later correct the 'facts' that this read was based on. My correction is not acknowledged or mentioned in any way.

See above.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:27 pm messie states that they will analyze my content as a whole. They don't do that. They cherry-pick instances that they find scummy. Best seen when they FoS me and somitomi for our interaction. It is not explained how that interaction could point to scum!somitomi or scum!Sabrar, it is just thrown out there.
Here we also have another case of not updating their thoughts: at first messie specifically points out that "the information is already available in the thread" and attaches some significance to it, however later when it is pointed out to them that the info was not there this is brushed aside and the suspicion is not changed in any way.

My final issue (and an extremely personal one) is that messie has missed twice what I have posted which normally doesn't happen with half a brain of town!messie.

This is still not enough for me to decisively say that I think messie is scum (because I am familiar how tunnel-y they can be) but is enough to put them lower on my list.

See above. Some of the content is being lost in the processing. I read something and post, but the other half of my brain reads the same content later and has a different interpretation.

@Sabrar, I think your real problem in trying to understand me is that you are expecting to see a certain playstyle associated with bessie, and are overlooking that Madge is not only an equal contributor, but she is the one that is online most of the time.

boomfrog wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:06 pm I expected Eido and Messie to at least comment about the conflict. Usually people love to speculate about a 1v1 confrontation on whether it is TvT TvS or SvS. No one even speculated that it might be scum theater, which is very surprising to me.

When have I ever done this?

Eido wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:41 pm Unvote
Vote: Boom

@Wam @Mark @Messie Join this?

Sorry Eido I don’t currently think BoomFrog is scum.

somitomi wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:04 pm shady
messie: kind of odd that I'm so high on her list with a "not much" after getting one of her two fingers of suspicion.
Heury: feels less easygoing than usual to me, but it's hardly condemning
BoomFrog: some early-game weirdness and his read on Eido (and to a lesser extent Sabrar) just doesn't sit right with me

God, this is unoriginal and I have the usual feeling that I'm completely wrong.

Vote BoomFrog

I don't expect to be back before deadline

Hmmm.... Votals at the time of your post:

messie (3): heury, phillip, Wam
Eido (1): BoomFrog
heury (3): Makhaira, Mark, messie
BoomFrog (2): Sabrar, Eido

Not voting: somitomi

Your scum reads are very convenient. So is your vote.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:37 am my ping on heury was for the same reason and seeing someone who seem to have meta with heury say its out of step validates that. is there anyone else in here with experience with heury that can confirm/deny what somi is saying here?

Disagree that snarkiness or easygoingness is alignment indicative for heury. He’s one of the most pleasant people ever to play mafia with, and that is NAI for him.

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:22 am I don't really get email notifs for this forum (not sure why) so I can't really speak to that.

Mark, its not automatic like the old forum, you have to select that you want email notifications when you get a pm. You also have to subscribe to threads that you want notifications; there’s a box at the bottom of the thread and it looks like “subscribe” is checked but it's not, you have to check it.

since heury was formerly at 4 votes and dropped to 3, does he remain the presumptive elim over messie? or do we need to timestamp check when messie got their 3rd vote and when heury got his to reconcile the tie break?

sabrar if you think boom over heury im willing to swap but we need two, my vote alone I think with no other changes results in messie elim I believe

deadline is in just over 2 hours btw

I thought I made a post earlier but I don't see it.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:46 am since heury was formerly at 4 votes and dropped to 3, does he remain the presumptive elim over messie? or do we need to timestamp check when messie got their 3rd vote and when heury got his to reconcile the tie break?

@LaserGuy can we have the official votals and how this would resolve?

Makhaira wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:54 am deadline is in just over 2 hours btw

You're an hour off deadline is two hours from now.

For the record, I was two minds about tactical voting but that's what's happening today. With like an hour and a bit until deadline there's not much chance of getting the wagon moved to Somi, who had a very scummy reads list.

My defensive vote remains on Heury as while neither Heury nor Boom is a scumpick of mine, Heury's participation sometimes drops off which will be harder to read at endgame than Boom.

messie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:33 am @Sabrar, I think your real problem in trying to understand me is that you are expecting to see a certain playstyle associated with bessie, and are overlooking that Madge is not only an equal contributor, but she is the one that is online most of the time.

That could be exactly the case, as Madge hates hates D1 so I assumed that she wasn't the main contributor.

Makhaira wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 3:47 am sabrar if you think boom over heury im willing to swap but we need two, my vote alone I think with no other changes results in messie elim I believe

Currently I think it's boomfrog over heury. Your vote would be enough.

I think either of the 3 wagons will give good info wrt connections after the flip so that shouldn't be a consideration. somitomi and phillip definitely need a second look tomorrow.

Vote Somitomi

I'd rather not yeet Heury or messie but if it comes down to it I'll move to Heury.

We'd need 4 on Somi to make it stick over messie though. So messie shouldn't move their vote unless Makhaira or Mark are also online and planning to move.

@boomfrog: from your pov we have 3 townie wagons, right? Why heury instead of messie?

Sabrar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:11 am @boomfrog: from your pov we have 3 townie wagons, right? Why heury instead of messie?

I'm more confident on my messie read then heury. Messie has posted fairly freely and I can see times when they didn't consult with each other before posting. I think scum messie would be more concerned about being coordinated.

You had heury as 2nd towniest earlier while messie was down with the neutrals. I think you change your mind way too quickly (similar to how you required me to show you my townieness and then a couple of posts later already accepted it).

@Sabrar: Have my actions not caused people to express more real opinions and show connections? I'm surprised you don't see the value of what I was doing.

Eido's reason to vote me is basically "BoomFrog is being weird". Somi's reason is basically, "Lot's of other people said Boom is scummy".

boomfrog wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:18 am @Sabrar: Have my actions not caused people to express more real opinions and show connections?

They have, in the sense that any actions provoke responses and reactions. I'm not seeing how yours specifically were special.

No one appreciates art anymore. Although I admit it's not my best work.

Vote Heury

@Makhaira: looks like you might be the only one to show up at end of day so it's up to you if you want boomfrog over heury.

Unofficial Votecount 1.51

messie (3): heury, phillip, Wam
Eido (1): BoomFrog
heury (3): Makhaira, Mark, messie
BoomFrog (3): Sabrar, Eido, somitomi[/quote]
If Heury is scum then Sabrar, Eido and somitomi are all town. Scum is almost certainly in phillip and wam.

If Heury is town, and messie is town then scum have not cared about any wagons today and not taken any difficult stances. That includes phillip (of course), maybe Mark but probably not, Sabrar, Eido, and maybe Makhaira.

If messie is scum then their partner is probably Makhaira. Mark+Messie piling on Heury in a row seems unlikely. I'd have to double check Eido and Sabrar about previously stated stances on Heury, but my recollection is they could have justified switching and securing the elimination on Heury instead of going for a risky elimination on me.