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Sabrar wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:02 am @messie: did you miss this question?

I did, thank you for pointing it out.

My question to you is, why do you think I think there’s only two scum?

Sabrar in messie’s head wrote: Because you only FoS’d two players

Well, I’ve currently found two players with content worth FoSing. Do you want me to make up a third scum-read just to make you happy?

I want you to be happy, Sabrar. I’m the goodest girl!

Okay, in terms of scum numbers, it took me a second to get my head around it but it does make sense for there to be 2, especially for a newbie game, as it’s more forgiving for town.

Assuming the worst case, 7-3 gets us to 5-3 then 3-3 in two days, whereas 8-2 goes 6-2 then 4-2 then finally 2-2, allowing three days. So 7-3 gives us one ML, 8-2 gives us two MLs.

LaserGuy just hosted an 8-2 setup.

7-3 is of course possible and once the bodies start racking up we’ll see how “mountainous” the game is, as right now we can only speculate IN VERY DANGEROUS WAYS.

Sab: The main reason is that I'm lazy (as I already said). After a while it just became funny.

Too lazy to unvote? It would be less work than typing out your excuse. Anyway, RVS is over, why the vote?

Sab: You can check timestamp of the edit and see it was added half a day after game started. I generally don't bother to reread gamestarting posts.

It is your interaction with somitomi that is suspicious. My puppy thought is “Why did somitoni ask the question, and why did Sabrar answer as he did?”

somi: Come on, what does it look like I'm doing there with a question mark on the end? I will admit that I couldn't remember if anyone asked that before and neither did I check if the information was out there. I'm not running at 100% mental capacity to be honest.

The mentor note was added after the game started. But regardless, I find it interesting that you don’t seem at all curious in figuring things out.

wam: I'm leaning this way. vote messie I dont get the fos for not seeing something in the OP especially as it was added later. I had completely missed it as well.

And this is the scummiest thing you have seen out of any player thus far in the game?

wam: Cycnical sucipous view says messie is worried about sabrar as they have the best meta read on madge and bessie. But I maybe being too cynical.

Do I look worried about Sabrar?

Sab: The second doesn't follow from the first. I'm not going to look for connections with less than a day since start where we are still in rvs and mostly just chatting. I also disagree that there have been 'lots of townie-tells' at that point and that you can reasonably do PoE. It's okay if you want to test me but that reasoning falls short on many levels.

Not true. You were already thinking about teams when you posted this:

“I'm about 97% certain that heury and Mark are not both scum. I'm about 88% certain that heury is not scum.”

Makhaira wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:07 pm

messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:54 pm
Have I ever mentioned how much I hate “if I were scum” posts?

...

FoS somitomi

FoS Sabrar

why did somi and sabrar warrant FoS's here but not heury based on their WIFOM?

My FoS’s are independent of others’ content. I need more from Heury to make a read, because he tends to be all over the place regardless of alignment. The other two have more structured styles.

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:10 pm

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:49 am

messie wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:11 am
Because it’s suspicious to me that Town would not ask questions about the setup when they’re relevant, as they were when trying to determine if something’s a genuine slip or not, especially when the information is already available in the thread.

My question was about why you're FoSing instead of voting, it's odd you didn't notice that

@Messie could you respond to my question here? Where FoS instead of vote after asking Sabrar why he did that?

Sorry. The nitpicky half of my brain must have been asleep. I don’t vote early and often. I am more generous in sharing FoS’s. I knew I’d have the time and inclination to look at more stuff later on and and think it over and make my vote. Is there some norm I’m not familiar with about voting early and often?

Makhaira wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 6:48 pm

messie wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:54 pm

Makhaira wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:51 pm @heury and messie

on a scale from 1-10 how mountainous do you think this game is?

Woof? Can you explain what you mean?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mountainous

Thank you this is very helpful. I didn’t know what the term meant in regards to mafia; now I know that you are rolefishing.

Mak: Id much rather see heury or philip elim'd here but I need to take a closer look at the neutrals

This is a newbie game , so by unofficial tradition, this group is reluctant to vote off newbies on Day 1, unless they do something blatantly scummy. Unfortunately we probably only have two mis-elims in this game.

philip: i don't really have anything to add... supercalafragalisticexpealadotious

If your content doesn’t improve we cant let you survive to Day 3 because you will be a liability at LYLO/MYLO. So if you are town, you will start posting some content NOW so we don’t need to waste Day 2, where you will likely be policy eliminated.

I should woof, grr right?

Woof
Makhaira - love the pressure and activity
Eido - good analytical reasoning
Somitomi - not much
Mark Cangila - not much
Phillip - true neutral, not much to go on. @phillip, you’re going to need to post more, give more opinions, etc, or we’re going to end up voting you out for lack of better options. As town, you don’t want to be voted off.
Boomfrog - typical froggy
Sabrar - have to put him in scum-side for old time’s sake
Heury - rolefishing
Wam - OMGUS
Grr


At this stage voting Heury seems like a forced choice for me, anyway, as at the moment we’re tied with 3 votes apiece.

Vote: Heury

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:12 am Woof
Makhaira - love the pressure and activity
..
Heury - rolefishing
Grr

At this stage voting Heury seems like a forced choice for me, anyway, as at the moment we’re tied with 3 votes apiece.

Vote: Heury

Makhaira was the one rolefishing. Where did Heury rolefish? And why is Makhaira top of the town list despite the rolefishing?

Quick list since I have other obligations tonight.

Town:
Mark - Good townie vibe and active scumhunting. Good reads list. I recall Mark being more passive.
Heury - Good reads list, actually paying attention and trying to scumhunt.
Makhaira - I think I like the rolefishing actually. It was a bad idea, but they are obviousely very familiar with how to play mafia and I think as scum they would not have tried it. I think it was a sincere but misguided attempt at scumhunting.
Phillip - I don't want to excuse the complete lack of effort, but the brazenness feels townie. Newbie scum would be more worried about fitting in and not screwing up. town!Phillip doesn't care that he's sticking out.
Wam - Vote on messie has some merit. Town vibe from his willingness to go after Messie, since scum have often been caught in those jaws.

messie - One townie ping early game but their reads list is concerning.
Sabrar - feels off, but I'm willing to give him more time to show his townieness. Would really like to see a reads list. Especially his read on me.
Eido - very townie vibe, but clearly an experienced player. I expected them to lead town but their lack of commentary on my "conflict" with Sabrar feels very deliberate.
Somitomi - complete lack of effort
Scum

Vote Eido

@Somitomi please put some effort in or you may end up the compromise elimination.

In case you're still here and get to reply.

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 5:12 am My question to you is, why do you think I think there’s only two scum?

messie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 12:40 am I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts

Half identified scum team from confirmation posts = that was a joke. Like your vote is, the one that's apparently still on me me me me me me me

Sorry, I got confused between Heury and Mak. That was a genuine mistake: Heury didn't rolefish to my knowledge and so doesn't deserve to be there, and Mak's rolefishing means they don't deserve to be my Towniest.

My vote is defensive, though, so I'm not moving it.

I want to swap to wam if there's any momentum, though. His vote is opportunistic. No scumread on me. He might be scum with Heury or Sabrar.

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am Like your vote is, the one that's apparently still on me me me me me me me

I have unvoted 2 pages ago. It is uncharacteristic of you not paying attention to my content.

Vote: boomfrog

for now. I think heury is a bad elim, and it troubles me to see messie voting defensively as half of them is very much against the idea.

You don't know what's characteristic of me, I'm a whole new person!

(I expect I'll be changing my vote before deadline, fwiw.)

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:10 pm You responded in thread within like 3 minutes of Role PMs coming out, though. Then later you said it was at 11:18 your time, not like a last minute end of the night check. I don't know if it's scummy, but it seems weird.

I've received an email notification that I have a new pm on the forum. I checked it, read my role-pm, went to the thread to confirm. Please explain what is weird in this process and what you would have done differently.

messie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am
My vote is defensive, though, so I'm not moving it.

I want to swap to wam if there's any momentum, though. His vote is opportunistic. No scumread on me. He might be scum with Heury or Sabrar.

I thought your objection to me was just omgus now your saying there is actual logic

But I dont get it I have an actual scum read on you.

Wam wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:24 pm I dont get the fos for not seeing something in the OP especially as it was added later. I had completely missed it as well.

@messie I believe scum read OP more than town. Agree or disagree?

Huery I'm still town reading. Scum Heury games I have seen recently they lurk badly day 1. Heury seems more involved and keener in this game which I tend to think makes them town.

@boom I'm not seeing anything from eido that makes the scummy. They are one of if not my top town read. Is it just the not commentating on you versus sabrar that's causing the suspicion? That seems very weak to me.

Updated reads list.

Town
Eido
Sabrar
Mark
Phillip
Makhira
Somi
Boom
Messie
Scum

I think most of my reads have been explained above. I'm not seeing the mountainous question as rolefishy as other think it's potentially a valid way of looking for TMI. Also makhira says and seem too experienced to be that obvious.

Somi has slipped down more because of other rising and nothing really to push them up.

I will probably not be around at deadline and if I am I wont be awake.

Eido: no scum-pings, a couple of townie tones/vibes, trying to figure out things. Would like to see some more detailed reads, especially on the 'big block of everyone else'.
heury: I've already expressed my opinion here, I think people are concentrating too hard on the mistake (please check Secret Santa where the exact same thing happened).
Makhaira: I see couple of points that are more likely coming from town than scum but otherwise it's hard to read them due to lack of knowledge of their playstyle. More reads would be great here as well.
Mark: I'm trying to decide whether the scum day-chat question could have been faked. I think it's possible but it would require some specific players to have advised it or me underestimating Mark to a large degree. Apart from that I generally like their content and read-list.
phillip: it's hard for me to reconcile the lack of content with the knowledge that they are mentored by osie. It could go either way.
somitomi: getting very small townie-vibes, but promised content for yesterday evening but did not deliver. That will not cut it long-term.
wam: it is scary how often his thoughts mirror my own. For once I don't think I'll be paranoid about that and I will ask him to carry my torch after N1.

Town
wam
heury
Mark
Eido
Makhaira
somitomi
phillip
messie
boomfrog
Scum

Details on messie/boomfrog later.

Somehow I missed huery out my reads list. Which is impressive given I started with a copy of my old one. Should have looked like

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:51 am Updated reads list.

Town
Eido
Sabrar
Huery
Mark
Phillip
Makhira
Somi
Boom
Messie
Scum

I think most of my reads have been explained above. I'm not seeing the mountainous question as rolefishy as other think it's potentially a valid way of looking for TMI. Also makhira says and seem too experienced to be that obvious.

Somi has slipped down more because of other rising and nothing really to push them up.

I will probably not be around at deadline and if I am I wont be awake.

My issues with messie's content:

I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts

As stated by messie, this could have been a joke that followed naturally from the first half of the sentence, however it still shows in my opinion that at that exact point in time the possibility of there being 3 scum was not on messie's mind. This is a minor point though.

Sidenote: it would be much easier to analyze messie's posts if we knew how the two halves of their brain combine their thoughts but them's the breaks.

messie does not update their thoughts when new information comes up. This is seen when first they find me scum because of the timing of my confirm post. I later correct the 'facts' that this read was based on. My correction is not acknowledged or mentioned in any way.

messie states that they will analyze my content as a whole. They don't do that. They cherry-pick instances that they find scummy. Best seen when they FoS me and somitomi for our interaction. It is not explained how that interaction could point to scum!somitomi or scum!Sabrar, it is just thrown out there.
Here we also have another case of not updating their thoughts: at first messie specifically points out that "the information is already available in the thread" and attaches some significance to it, however later when it is pointed out to them that the info was not there this is brushed aside and the suspicion is not changed in any way.

My final issue (and an extremely personal one) is that messie has missed twice what I have posted which normally doesn't happen with half a brain of town!messie.

This is still not enough for me to decisively say that I think messie is scum (because I am familiar how tunnel-y they can be) but is enough to put them lower on my list.

Mark_Cangila wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:15 am

heuristically_alone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:55 am Town
Eido - Immediately began to attempt to identify relationships between players. Good scum hunting.
Sabrar - see above
Wam - I like the vote on messie and agree with his assessment that messie is worried about sabrar
Mark_Cangila - Is making an impressive effort. And I can follow their thought process with his town reads. And felt like he had no idea on scum so sheeping vote on me.
Phillip - Seems to be around in their thought process. If they're scum either there's no say chat or they haven't communicated much with their scum partner yet.

Neutral
Somitomi - To me somi doesn't seem to change much whether town or scum and is the only player that nothing particularly jumped out as town or scum.

Scum
Makhaira - Mainly due to paranoia carried over from secret Santa. Feels like the vote on me is an excuse due to a "slip".
Boom - Lots of talk but surprisingly little actual content. Not what I expect from boom at this point. Usually by now he has made some connection that blows my mind.
Messie - Seems to know there are only two mafia. I'm suspicious that boom and messie have planned Sabrar as a mislynch.

They, not he. But also, your read on Makhaira feels very OMGUS to me - "The vote on me is an excuse due to a 'slip'" how do you think people should vote, if not on perceived scum slips? Why is that scummy, but what you perceive as me sheeping a vote isn't?

I'm getting town vibes from you, therefore your read on me is incorrect. I have not gotten town vibes from Makhaira. If you were scum would you not jump at the opportunity the vote someone town that you could spin their info as a slip? It's exactly what happened to me last game. And yes I suppose it is partially OMGUS, but decided to lean scum on the fact that I have gotten no town vibe yet and I know their vote is incorrect.

Wam wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:56 am Somehow I missed huery out my reads list. Which is impressive given I started with a copy of my old one.

Slip slip! Quick Mafia, all vote wam with me!

boomfrog

- boomfrog made only a token effort to engage and solve until yesterday and there is no indication that the prior content felt relevant to him.
- as explained previously his thought process by which he tried to determine mine is flawed on many levels. He neglected to explain himself further, not responding to my latest inquiries at all.
- he scum-reads Eido just because Eido did not comment on one particular aspect of the game. This seems very excessive, especially coming from boomfrog who for example did not comment at all on how people find heury scummy because of the mistake. Since heury had 4 votes already at the time of boomfrog's read-list I recon that was also an important topic that would have merited some kind of comment from him.
- his 'advice' to somitomi (at the end of his readlist) feels off. boomfrog believes he can read the room but as of that point somitomi was very far from being an elim today considering the two major trains already. This is just a minor point though as it's just a vibe I'm getting from that comment.

Ok just reading through. Will drop some reads

@wam and @sabrar, you are letting Eido's townie tone lull you into complacency. They started the day strongly but then completely failed to be involved when things got serious.

Messier and Heury are both bad eleminations, and I'm trying to find a better choice.

@boomfrog: does that appeal to me means that I have now shown you my townieness?

@Sabrar for the record #1 was intentional in order to provoke people and #2 was a side affect of me being focused on my plan. I'll go into more detail when I have more time. And I'll try and go back to answer your questions.

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:03 pm @boomfrog: does that appeal to me means that I have now shown you my townieness?

Yes, I'm leaning that way. Your responses to the second half of my provocation have been the right amount of considered. I certainly don't want to elim you D1.

Turns out the forum is blocked at work and typing on phone is the worst.
Heury's snarky tone is pinging me a little, in my recollection town-heury is usually more easy-going.
Makhaira asking about the setup this way seems fishy to my less tired mind.