You know what, fine. I'm not enjoying bessie's posting, but maybe she'll engage with direct questions. With her own style of quotewalls. Better faith attempt to engage on her terms than she's given me all game. Let's go post by post.
And here I thought I was done with gish-gallops when I stopped moderating debate. *sigh*
bessie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:15 pm
Thanks Wam.
@bessie - Often when someone adds extra words like this to a post that could be just "confirm", it feels like unnaturally forced politeness. Is this just a normal response for you or some form of posturing?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:36 pm
Wam wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:14 pm
That is enough to get the game going.
Boo.
@bessie - What was such a big deal here? What's the point of a public statement of this sort? Did you need more time to prepare something? What?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:36 pmmadge wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:08 pm
Confirm, thanks wam, love the flavour!
to what extent, if any, are we allowed to claim the roles we submitted? e.g. can we just say "i submitted a doctor" outright first thing D1? alternatively, if someone claims doc, can we say "oh yes i submitted that!"?
Madge, I don’t like your confirmation post. You asked a question that was already discussed in the signup thread
here . And you were part of that discussion.
@bessie - In the signup thread, Madge was talking about a different aspect of the roles. You were the only person to talk about claims. And even then, the answer did not elaborate on the extent to which claiming a role would not be allowed. The way this is phrased, and the way in which you instantly got defensive about it later when asked about it, it sounds like you felt this was a big catch? Why, if so?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:36 pm
FoS osieorb18
@bessie - What at the time was your reasoning for this FoS, solely looking at the previous posts? This was at the bottom of page 1. So far at that point, I had been social in my start, and had poked a bit at WMU and the worst to get things going, as well as noting an early townping on TSS.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:00 pm
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:40 pm
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:36 pmMadge, I don’t like your confirmation post. You asked a question that was already discussed in the signup thread
here . And you were part of that discussion.
This is worded as if you're considering this to be alignment relevant?
I’m considering as to whether Madge’s post is alignment indicative. As I am considering every post and whether it is alignment indicative. Are you not doing the same?
@bessie - Why so defensive? I feel like the question I asked wasn't particularly aggressive.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:00 pmMadge’s is a post to make a post, asking a question to which she already knows the answer. It is active lurking, as is most of your content thus far. Except for your post fishing for my opinion, and this bit of role fishing
@bessie - You mentioned deflection in a later post. Isn't that rather hypocritical given that based on you going on the defensive, you took my question as a scumread of you, and then deflected towards me from the topic of your read on Madge?
Also, what do you mean by "fishing for my opinion"? As I expressed earlier, I'm still very puzzled as to what that's supposed to imply outside of reframing asking you a question as a negative thing.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:00 pm
Unfortunately, it appears not.
@bessie - I had already answered this in a previous post. Had you not been caught up with the thread when you made this post?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm
Hi <3 BoomFrog <3 have you missed me me me?
@bessie - This seems somewhat forced. Why specifically reach out to boomfrog here? You have at least moderate experience with several other players in the thread. Was madge's confirmation post so suspicious as to not be similarly enthusiastic to play with her? Do you have beef with moody or sniper? You hadn't said any such greeting to either of them, either. And it's not like boomfrog reached out to you in their posts, either. So this just seems rather out-of-nowhere.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmmadge wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:10 pm
Howdy neighbour! I am town this time, promise
Bessie the reason for the question is I don't recall having a firm answer in sign ups from Wam AND I di see it in the rules so I wanted to be sure that everyone knew the score. If you tunnel on me for that then I am sorry but I refuse to engage further.
Is that a TOWN CLAIM??? [-1]
@bessie - You make the "I am town" out to be a big deal, but then you don't follow through with your original question here. Why? What happened to your read there?
You seem to do this "Is that a TOWN CLAIM???" thing a lot throughout the thread, as if to make it memetic. I've usually seen this sort of behaviour from scum trying to call out easy derptells. Why is someone openly hinting that they are town such an important tell for you above most other tells?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:33 pm
I don't usually use posts from prior to the start of the game to determine someone's alignment. I figured you might have been joking about that as far as alignments were concerned, but if you were serious about it, then it's a bit of an odd push. Like, you're pushing someone for forgetting an element of the rules before the repeatedly-delayed game has started?
Everything in the game thread is content (with the exception real life issues/info posts), including confirmation posts. Players are not allowed to make posts with possible alignment-indicative content, then later say “well that doesn’t count I wasn’t really playing yet."
@bessie - What do you feel is indicative of Madge's alignment in her asking in her confirmation post for further detail on rules on claiming what role she submitted?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmAnd yes I am dead serious. How is this an odd push? Madge knows why I pushed her on this. Odd because I am pushing for content? Or odd that I am serious on Page 1?
@bessie - Okay, Madge knows why you pushed her on this. Can you explain to the rest of us why you pushed her on it? Can you explain why you no longer seem to think it's important? What changed? Why are you defensive over this when your behaviour hasn't been called scummy for it, just unusual?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:33 pm
Nah. I'm not trying to get Sniper to tell me anything about their role. I'm noting that if that's a softclaim, it's probably townie. Besides, if I was trying to solve on roles, why the hell would I put it in the thread as a wolf?
Is that a WOULD I DO THIS AS SCUM post??? [-1]
See earlier comment about derptells.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmWhy even note that it may be a soft claim unless you want to open discussion on it? The Snide Sniper is a newer player. Since you brought up the “would I do this as scum” argument, I will offer a response that I think the townie thing to do might be to ignore it and move on, not push for more information.
@bessie - Isn't the answer to your question here self-evident? As I explicitly stated, I wasn't pushing for more information. I had marked that post as a town-ping for TSS due to the manner in which they made it. If I was pushing for more information, I'd push for more information. There was a whole page and a half between TSS's post and your comment about rolefishing. I didn't push for more information at any point in that page and a half. Why would keeping a townping closer to my chest be more townie than sharing my analysis of someone's alignment with the thread?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmInteresting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the
same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.
@bessie - Why phrase this paragraph in the manner that you did? It feels very much like shade, particularly given that your vote is not on me at the time of the post.
Why shade me about not responding to the FoS rather than asking me directly as to why I didn't respond? When I flip town, that just makes you look more suspicious.
What had you felt that I hadn't addressed out of your case? Did you feel you hadn't provided your case in your previous post? If so, what was left of your case that hadn't been provided?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:06 am
Ok, where was I? You know I do miss how Smashboards numbers posts.
@bessie - I am very aware that this is a bit hypocritical given my own writing style, but how is this helpful other than announcing to the thread that you are writing your post as stream of consciousness? And even then, what benefit is there to town for you to announce that in this manner?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:06 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pmI wouldn't usually consider confirmation posts to be part of the game, given that they are prior to when the host has declared the game to start. That said, in this context, it is understandable to do so since there is no explicit rule stating they cannot be used, and they were after the role PMs had been sent out. It's just not where I would expect people to be looking.
We used to have a legendary player that could catch scum based on their confirmation posts. Someday I hope to ascend to his level.
@bessie - You certainly aren't shy about putting in the effort to make long posts. I feel like if this was an organic thought, you would at least put a pretense of effort into doing the work to analyze each confirmation post, not just the one question in Madge's confirmation post. Did nothing else stand out in the confirmation posts? Did you do the analysis for them? If so, why not put your notes on that analysis in the thread? There's at least five distinct posts made there amongst the 6 players other than yourself who confirmed. Seems like plenty to at least come up with some theories, even if you won't get a perfect idea of the whole game out of it.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pm
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm
Is that a WOULD I DO THIS AS SCUM post??? [-1]
No, it's a legitimate question. I would assume... (goes and checks) and have checked and confirmed that "Players with chats can chat at any time.=" is in the OP. So if Mafia can chat at any time, why would they bother putting notes on claims in the thread?
No, it is totally a “would I do this as scum” post. Your literally said “why the hell would I put it in the thread as a wolf?” And you should reread my entire reaction (an subsequent posts), not just the part you quoted. I’m not pointing out that you are putting notes in thread. I am accusing you of rolefishing.
@bessie - If I'm clearly not interpreting what you said in the way you intended, correcting what I've stated about something that isn't what you said doesn't seem to support discussion in good faith. You are stating two things here. First, that I didn't address what you said, and second, that my response is wrong in terms of what you said. But my response isn't related to what you said, by your own statement. You can see that as you said, I wasn't engaging on rolefishing. I didn't think of my post for a second as rolefishing, just as a townping. So why correct a therefore irrelevant response about notetaking of claims in terms of rolefishing that you yourself have mentioned aren't pertinent to said response?
Similarly, why assume malice when there's no reason not to believe that I'm working off of an unreliable narration (my own interpretation) of your concern?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pm
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmWhy even note that it may be a soft claim unless you want to open discussion on it? The Snide Sniper is a newer player. Since you brought up the “would I do this as scum” argument, I will offer a response that I think the townie thing to do might be to ignore it and move on, not push for more information.
I noted that it might be a townie post. Especially with the information that Sniper is a newer player, I'm relatively townleaning them for that post.
Oh ok, here’s more of my response. So you’re saying that because you’re townreading Snide Sniper, you cant be rolefishing him? Please explain how one implies the other.
@bessie - Where does this interpretation come from? Why interpret "My post was noting a townie post, AND rolefishing was nowhere near my mind" as "My post was noting a townie post, THEREFORE rolefishing cannot be what I was doing"? The latter isn't what I said. What's the purpose of changing the meaning of my words here? Did you just misinterpret what I said? Why not admit that later on when I pointed it out?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:26 pmbessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmInteresting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the
same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.
I noted it, but I don't bother going on the defensive in that way. It's a waste of time in my experience. If you had expressed a case, it would be one thing, but you haven't, so I'm waiting for you to actually put content behind the statement. If you don't, then that's also something to note.
You only reply to cases, and not to player accusing you of being suspicious? Well I don’t do cases, however I will analyze your posts.
@bessie - You originally seemed to make this out to be a big deal, and were complaining about me not addressing why you found me suspicious, as if you had put it into the thread. But when I asked for further content in regards to your case, you ALSO made that out to be a big deal, as if it was a huge inconvenience to provide that. Why? This is a social team game. If another player whose alignment you theoretically wouldn't know is asking you for you to explain your reads, especially when you had previously complained about them not doing so, why are you acting so put upon when you have seemingly gotten what you wanted?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 1 : Confirm. [0]
Post 2 : Active lurking, contentless post. First post of game. [0]
Post 3 : RVS. Making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post. [-1]
@bessie - For someone who complained about others judging on quantity of posts rather than quality, you seem to certainly care a lot about someone splitting up two social posts at the start of a game into separate posts. What gives? Also, if you yourself are labeling my confirm post as not being the first post of the game, why were you so surprised and defensive when I asked as to why you were analyzing confirm posts that were before the start of the game?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 4 : Since Osie denies this post contains a breadcrumb (see Posts 5 and 6) this is active lurking. Post for the sake of posting. [-1]
@bessie - Is establishing rapport in a social manner scummy? Why? If you go to a party, do you get offended if someone acts social towards you in greeting?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 5 : Denies Post 4 is a breadcrumb. [0]
@bessie - This was a notable interaction as far as I'm concerned. I explain to moody that my previous post was being social. Why is it so unimportant to you in terms of determining alignment of either myself or moody? If it is relevant to you, then why not post that analysis in the thread?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 6 : Reply to the worst re Post 4, and buddying? [-1]
@bessie - What about that post is buddying? If the potential for buddying is not the only thing about the post that was scummy, then what else was scummy, and why? As revealed multiple times throughout the thread, I'm much closer to the worst socially outside of the game than to any other player there, even WMU. Do you feel being social to a close friend is somehow unusual or scummy? How do you reconcile that with your greeting to Boomfrog?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 7 : Rolefishing, opening the door to speculate on a possible Snide Sniper soft claim. Also making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post (related thoughts). [-1]
@bessie - Clearly I'm not originally from the same forum mafia background as you. You've definitely seen me in other games enough to realize this. Again, you're going after quantity as a scumtell, when you yourself have complained about it. Not even going into the accusation of rolefishing, which has been addressed repeatedly now, I'm also not the only player in this community to split my posts up instead of making a long quote wall. When that's clearly a matter of playstyle, is it really a scumtell?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 8 : Inside joke to WakeMeUp. Also makes an early association with WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [Note I do not know what NUF is.] [-1]
@bessie - What's scummy about this post? Again, I'm being social, and WakeMeUp is the other person I know best in the thread beyond the worst. Why would it be strange for us to have social banter early on in the thread about past games? I've certainly never seen a community where that was a scumtell, and that includes this one.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm
Post 9 : Reply/joke to the worst. Possible buddying. [0]
@bessie - I feel like a broken record, but again, what's wrong with being social here?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm
Post 10 : Another double post that could have been part of the previous post. Ironically accuses the Worst of buddying WakeMeUp. [-1]
@bessie - This post was actually a social post jokingly accusing the worst of trying to pocket me, not anybody else. Buddying WMU isn't relevant. Did you misread or is something else going on here?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 11 : Reply/question to bessie re Madge’s confirmation post ( I responded to this in another post). This is a valid question. [+1] However, note that Osie does not question my FoS of him that was in the same post. [-1]
@bessie - It didn't feel like you felt like it was a valid question given that you were defensive about it. If you felt it was valid, why go hard on the defensive?
Also, we'd already discussed that I wouldn't respond to a naked FoS as either alignment. On top of that, how is not responding to a naked FoS a scumtell? If anything, being self-conscious about that naked FoS seems scummier; a response feels almost like OMGUS.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 12 : Joke reply to the worst with a vote for him. [0]
Post 13 : Reply/joke to WakeMeUp. Second attempt of association with this game and WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [-1]
@bessie - You make it sound like this is distinct from the rest of the social interaction. It's a "second attempt", separate from the "first attempt". Why, when it so clearly is part of the same conversation, and so clearly being social and joking around with someone who is a friend outside of the game? What is scummy about having friends?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 14 : Reply/joke to the worst. [0]
Post 15 : Reply to WakeMeUp, game rules. [0]
@bessie - Why are these posts not alignment indicative? What makes them distinct from other social posts I'd made thus far? If you felt that I was "active lurking", why wouldn't these also be scummy as part of that?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 16 : Reply to bessie (I responded to this in another post). I like that Osie responded to my questions [+1], even if I find the answers suspicious (see
here for reasons). [-1]
@bessie - I thought you felt (in a later post) that I hadn't engaged with why you found me suspicious. Were your questions at this point unrelated to sorting me? What was their purpose if not developing your read on me?
Also, how does that first response in the linked post have anything to do with expressing suspicion towards my answer? You were continuing to respond to my questioning of you. You were on the defensive.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 17 : Reply to BoomFrog. Information. [0]
@bessie - My post there is not just social. The first part is very explicitly questioning why boomfrog is asking others for meta on me when they themselves had meta on me. Is that not alignment indicative to you, and if so, why?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 18 : The post I’m responding to now. Some legit comments [+1], some deflection (see above). [-1]
@bessie - Which are which? Why? Why had you yet to talk about deflection at this point in time? If you had expressed "I feel like this is deflection", and explained why, I, like anyone else, would have responded to improve conversation between the two of us. But you didn't. Why are you so hesitant to have productive conversation? Do you feel that clear communication is a bad thing for town? If so, why?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 19 : Unvote. Early town scum list [+1] with reasons. [+1]
@bessie - What about posting that list is townie? What about the reasons are townie? Why would this be more or less townie than whatever scum points you've enumerated?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Re content of post:
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm
Bessie shading me for "active lurking" when there were less than 40 posts since start of game and 4 out of 9 players (Heury/Boom/Moody/Sniper) hadn't really posted significant content is bugging me even more than her looking at posts prior to game start for alignment, but I could see this being trying to draw blood from a stone like I sometimes do.
Ok, you’re seriously trying to tell me that I can’t have a read on you for your content, that I’m only supposed to have a read on you in relation to everyone else?? I’m looking for scum, not looking for the scummiest. And I get the feel from your posts that you are looking for the scummiest, not looking for scum. [-1]
@bessie - I can see that you may not have understood my reasoning in my post, but I was calling out the fact that you didn't seem to be solving other players, especially when I had more substantive content to further my ability to read other players than anybody else in the thread at that time. Why are you flying off the handle in response to someone scumreading your behaviour? Why distort what I said into saying that you couldn't have a read on me that wasn't comparative? How did you get that from my post, when the actual meaning of my post was primarily that you were not reading other players at all and that I actually had a decent amount of productive content? Why not respond to those points in good faith? What gave you the impression that I was looking for the scummiest? What gave you the impression that I wasn't looking for scum?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmHeh, IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM??? [-1]
@bessie - How does this sort of question help you to sort me or anyone else? How does it help other people to understand it when you place it outside of context?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pmMadge - I like their entrance, and bessie may have TMI'd them.
Explain.
@bessie - If I clearly scumread you, and clearly don't agree with your reasoning for scumreading someone else, then what is there to explain in regards to me thinking that you may have TMI'd that player?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm
The Snide Sniper - The way they entered the thread puts them on the townie edge of null and bessie may have TMI'd them.
Explain.
@bessie - As I'd already stated, my early post in response to TSS was me stating a townping from TSS. In addition, you were adamant that I was trying to rolefish them, which implies that you are certain they are town. What was unclear about that? Why did you feel an explanation was needed? It's perfectly acceptable to not see that, but if you didn't recognize that, then why put "Explain" by itself as a command in the way you did? How does that contribute to productive conversation?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmosieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm
Scumlean:
moody7277 - Just a ping off of their entrance; it feels a bit forced.
bessie - I'm paranoid that bessie appears to be, either intentionally or not, trying to do one of the standard styles I've seen from scum of taking small things and blowing them out of proportion to form a series of tunnels instead of trying to read people organically. She could just be drawing blood out of a stone, but I need to see more to feel comfortable with that sort of a read.
Vote: moody7277
You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]
@bessie - I ended my point on you with "I need to see more". As such, what does using my vote on you give me at that point? Voting for moody puts pressure on a slot that had done decidedly little. It's still early in the Day phase. Voting for you doesn't maximize the use of different forms of pressure to solve different slots. Why would I go linearly all-in on one person when, to use your wording, I'm looking for scum, not the scummiest?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmI liked Moody’s entrance and had a town feel from it, however, if Osie is scum I will look to this post. Osie has no reason to put a serious vote down on Moody; it feels forced. It could be early distancing. [-1]
@bessie - What about that vote made it a serious vote? If you felt Moody was townie, why is my interaction with him so much more significant? As mentioned, I was already directly interacting with you, which provided me information. What is scummy about me trying to solve multiple scum slots at the same time, especially in a small game like this one?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pm Post 20 : Semi offer to switch to bessie.
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:40 pm
I'm more than happy to switch to bessie, but don't see it being useful to grow a wagon there until mid-Day if my overall gut judgment of their playstyle is correct.
Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]
@bessie - What about my wording suggests that I'm not concerned with you being scum? I've very clearly stated that I wanted to see more from you. I'm very clearly stating here that my read on you might be coloured by your playstyle, and that as such, it will be more helpful for me to consider you further. Where in that post is this hard drive to eliminate you regardless of alignment that you are describing? Even if I wasn't using my vote as a tool instead of just for the purpose of cementing an elimination, I'm voting for someone else at that point. How does that imply that I'm trying to eliminate you rather than sort you first?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmPost 21 : Completely rational question. Welcome to the paradox that is Madge. [+1]
@bessie - Why would this be more or less townie than whatever scum points you've enumerated? Given that I've already implied that I have some familiarity with Madge's personality and playstyle, then where does "Welcome to the paradox that is Madge" come from?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmmadge wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:03 am
are we out of RVS? I never can tell
this vote means "HOW DARE YOU, BESSIE" with a side of animal fries
Yes. It appears Osie made a serious vote at the bottom of the previous page.
@bessie - How is this any less "active lurking" than any of the comments you'd called me out for making? Why assume that my vote was serious without asking me first?
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmSorry Heury that you missed RVS. I was waiting for you.
@bessie - How is this any less "active lurking" than any of the comments you'd called me out for making? If we accept that you're assuming my vote was serious, why shade me for that? Even if you're not calling it scummy, you're still implying that I've done something bad because you would have waited had I not jumped the gun in your eyes, so to speak.
bessie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:00 pmVote: osieorb18
@bessie - Given that I was your top scumread for so long, why did it take this long for you to vote for me? You've expressed that you expect people to vote for their top scumread and not somebody else. You've implied that using one's vote as a tool to sort people other than their top scumread is scummy. And yet here you've been doing the same thing. Why?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 am
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am
And again, I ask "Why would someone just put out there in the thread that they think that someone's softclaim is town as a form of rolefishing? How does that signify rolefishing?" Asking about it would be one thing. But I didn't ask about it. Expressing interest in it beyond just "This is townie" would be another. But I didn't. I literally just said "This is townie."
Ok. You didn’t ask a direct question (Hey Sniper are you a BOMB??),
however, you threw out an observation and tried to provoke a discussion (“ Softclaiming a killing role is... townie?”).
@bessie - Why assume that I was trying to provoke a discussion? What about discussion of an early game townping is scum-favourable? If the point is that you thought that I was rolefishing, how would it benefit me to be so blatant, especially in a game with at least two players that I know are much stronger players than I am and that would likely call me out were I to attempt such a discussion?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am
It feels like you wanted to see rolefishing so you're creating motivation where none exists.
Deflection.
@bessie - Am I not allowed to express a scumread on you? How is this deflection? How are all of the other parts of my scumread on you not deflection? Is this your way of saying that my scumread on you is correct, just outside of this part of my read?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 ambessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:06 amOh ok, here’s more of my response. So you’re saying that because you’re townreading Snide Sniper, you cant be rolefishing him? Please explain how one implies the other.
Again, this feels like an intentional misinterpretation of my posts. I said that "All I said in this post was that the post I read felt town indicative." That does not equate to "If I townread someone I can't rolefish them."
First two misrepresentations are free. Another one, not so much.
The more you pretend that you don’t know what rolefishing is, the more convinced I am that I am correct.
@bessie - Where in that post did I pretend that I didn't know what rolefishing is? Where in other posts before that post did I pretend that I didn't know what rolefishing is?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amInteresting how whenever you reply to me you brush of my content as just wrong, and you don’t even try to figure out my point of view.
@bessie - Do you have specific examples in regards to this? Isn't this a bit hypocritical given that I'd been calling out your posts for pretty much the same thing? How does this shade help you form a read on me? If you're town, how does this shading help to facilitate communication with me? How does this shading help to facilitate communication with other town players?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 3:06 amYou only reply to cases, and not to player accusing you of being suspicious?
Yep!
Ok. How very townie of you.
@bessie - How is this a productive comment to make? Did you know that sarcasm does not translate well on the internet? Why would you make a sarcastic comment in a game in which one of the players has stated that English is not her first or second language? How does being aggressively sarcastic in this way help you to ascertain alignments or communicate at all, for that matter?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am
Ah I see you are trying to do a malignment wall, where a player, typically scum, goes into a PBPA another player's ISO with the intention of reading as much negative intent as they possibly can into the posts, with a few positives thrown in here and there for appearances. Here's the thing: I'm practiced at that. I used to do that a lot. And then realized, in part from feedback from several people, that assuming malice in people's posts, especially when it wasn't there, was not only not a worthwhile strategy but also wasn't very fun.
Hahaha, so... I’m scumreading you, so it
must be malice, not simply wrong? Which one of us is the one creating malice in other people’s posts, and which one of us is trying to figure out the game? [I don’t know what PBPA is.]
@bessie - Where in that quote did I suggest that you were being malicious, rather than that you were assuming that I had malicious intent as scum? What about my posts makes you feel I'm creating malice in the posts of others? What about my posts makes you feel that I'm not trying to figure out the game? If you don't know what PBPA means, why respond to this paragraph as if you're certain that you're responding to the correct meaning? Doesn't that just increase your chance of responding with a misunderstanding?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 am
The thing with a malignment wall is that it's not only a gish-gallop, but it's a non-productive gish-gallop, since the logic behind it is intrinsically fallacious; it's irrational. So it's not really worth going through it point by point. And it often frustrates the hell out of the irrational player to just be dismissed as "you went into someone's posts with an intention for bias, and congrats, you succeeded at your bias." But that's all a malignment wall is. So as dismissive as it is, I'mma just handwave it away for what it is.
And I’mma gonna quote this post when you flip scum.
@bessie - Again, how does this aggression help you to communicate with anybody? Also, you refuse to entertain any possibility that you might be wrong. Does an offhanded aggressive comment towards a scumread help you to sort them? Do you think that it helps the rest of us to sort you in the way you'd want us to sort you?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:07 amI do think the act of doing a malignment wall does push you over the edge for me though.
Vote: Bessie
Nice you found a reason to move your serious vote off of moody.
@bessie - Again, how does this sarcastic aggression help you out? At this point in the game, I hadn't even made any of the few comments for which you had declared that I was being rude. Why escalate discussion this way into being less pleasant through aggression? How does this help you as either alignment, particularly as town?
Also, I had a serious scumread on you already at this point. You even called it more serious than my scumread on Moody. I didn't need a reason to move my vote to you. Why say that I "found a reason"? I had that reason long before. Why assume that my vote on Moody was a serious one?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 ammoody7277 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:13 am
Misquoting Phantom Menace, "Random voting stage was short."
Yep it’s over. Where are your snap reads?
@bessie - Does Moody usually have snap reads by the point that the thread is immediately after RVS? What does this question do for you in sorting Moody? What does mentioning that RVS is over AGAIN do for you in sorting Moody? Why is this part of your big wallpost about me?
bessie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:38 amNinja'd by BoomFrog while I was typing this out.
@bessie - So was the question "Where are your snap reads?" irrelevant? BoomFrog didn't ask that question. If you'd read BoomFrog's posts (which you'd have to have done to include the "Ninja'd" comment in your own post), then why explain that RVS was over and not just ask the question? Why not respond to BoomFrog's posts? Were you not trying to sort BoomFrog?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 am
I’m here! Anything interesting happen while I was at work? Is anyone talking about me me me?
@bessie - How is this helpful to include? It feels like making a comment for the sake of making a comment. If it was a separate post (as many other players might do), you might call it active lurking. Also, why are you focused specifically on people talking about you? Isn't that more of a scum mindset?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:03 amI would love to have a discussion on your point of view, but any such discussion requires us to come into the discussion in equally good faith with an equal understanding of the various posts in question, and given that you've been constantly and blatantly misrepresenting me, I don't see that happening. I want to believe that this is just you feeling like you've caught onto something, but it honestly just feels intentional as a way to irritate people.
So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?
@bessie - Why interpret "constantly" as "all"? They mean two different things. Why interpret "people" as "Osie"? They mean two different things. Why not ask for more detail on those specific wordings if you aren't certain of their meaning in context? Given that I'd expressed frustration with you misrepresenting my wording, why were you not being more cautious or thorough about communicating? Why do you choose to continue to maintain a standard of misunderstandings? Does that help you to communicate with others? Does that help you to understand the motivations of others? To formulate reads on them?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:03 am
No. Again, I didn't say that. Again, you're misrepresenting my words. In this case you're even explicitly stating that you don't know what I meant, and that you're applying a meaning of your own construction.
I said very specifically "A malignment wall [is a technique] where a player, typically scum, goes [Post-By-Post Analyzing (PBPA) through] another player's ISO [with a preformed bias], and then throws in positives here and there for appearances."
You went through every one of my posts and said "I find this negative" over and over again. That's not hard to do.
I didn’t know what you meant by the abbreviation “PBPA”. Now I know you meant “post by post analyzing” and its something I used to do a lot on xkcd, where we had longer games with much lower content levels.
And you’re correct; it wasn’t that hard to read through your posts and find many of them negative, because as I read your posts I felt that your content was suspicious. Your posts are the reason I have a scum read on you.
@bessie - Given that you didn't know the meaning, why would you apply a meaning of your own construction? How does it benefit you, if you are town, to presume that someone is scum when going through their ISO, rather than go through their ISO and then formulate a read? You had said prior that you didn't do cases. Do you just not explain your reads at all? Because a case in the context of mafia is just an explanation of your read. If you felt so adamantly prior to making the PBPA that the vast majority of my posts were scummy, why would it be difficult to explain your read on me before making the PBPA? Did the PBPA actually help you sort me at all? If it did, how? If it didn't, then could that perhaps be due to the fact that you went into it with the intention to scumread me no matter the results of the PBPA?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:03 amYa know, after over a decade of forum moderation, I can pretty much tell that a person won't learn anything from me saying "What you're doing is wrong/unenjoyable/illogical" when they repeatedly double down. It's like talking to a typical anti-vaxxer or Q-Anon believer. They're convinced that they cannot ever be in the wrong as a person, even when acting obnoxious and illogical in the process of trying to make their argument.
Interesting. And quite rude. I guess I’m the Q-anon anti-vaxxer in your simile?
@bessie - As I mentioned earlier, I tend to use metaphors in my speech. I had already brought up that you were using a "gish-gallop" style of a long series of points that you then insist aren't addressed unless people go through them point by point. This is a standard frustrating technique that people who want to make others miserable use for debates, not a technique for forming reads or playing enjoyably in mafia games.
I then brought up that you were doubling down on something that was commented to be wrong and unenjoyable. As such, the context is not saying that you are similarly abhorrent to an anti-vaxxer or Q-anon believer. I apologize for it coming across in that manner. You had at this point repeatedly made statements that reframed my words as something they were not, what I would call misrepresenting me given that it seemed to be intentional.
If it was not, if it was a series of legitimate misinterpretations instead, then doubling down on them is still illogical. If someone has pointed out repeatedly that you are not representing them correctly, why double down on that representation, whether or not the inaccuracy was intentional? How does that make the game more enjoyable for others? How does that help you to sort people or communicate with them in good faith?
Yes, there is a degree of frustration in me making a metaphor about evil conspiracy theorists. How does it further the game for you to continue to maintain poor communication with me at that point? You're not sorting me, realistically. You haven't analyzed my frustration, or any of the rest of my motivation. You've just thrown "You're wrong and that means you're scum" into the thread over and over. Why are you playing this way? Why do you think that this is a productive and enjoyable strategy as either alignment?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:03 am
What serious vote? A vote with less than 50 posts in the game on someone who had made one post? My vote for you is my first serious vote this game.
Just so there is no misunderstanding, you are claiming your vote for moody in
this post is not serious. Please correct me if I misunderstand because this affects my read of Moody so I want to be clear on it.
@bessie - Are you basing your read of Moody on anything other than my posts? Are you basing any of your reads on anything other than my posts? If this question helped you to determine Moody's alignment, why didn't you follow through with either some sort of discussion of your read or any other resulting conclusion? Why, if you are town, are you hiding your conclusions from the rest of us? What is your current read on Moody? How did the answer to your question affect that read?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:33 amThe worst, WakeMeUp, and Madge are way better players than me as either alignment.
How many games have you played with Madge?
@bessie - You've suggested that I'm really obvious scum. That it's easy to determine my alignment and that my reads this game aren't worth anything. How does that fit with questioning me saying that other players are better than me? How did this question help you determine my alignment? Anybody else's alignment?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amthe worst wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:26 amCould you expand a bit on why that struck you as alignment indicative
Hi Worst! Are you referring to my thoughts on Osie or on Madge?
@bessie - The worst had quoted a specific post. Why even ask this and not just answer both versions of the question? Why does the worst get this special treatment of you asking for clarification rather than just interpreting their post however you feel fit? Why are you trying harder to communicate well with the worst than with other people?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amthe worst wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:32 amI think expressing a null/town read on someone and then voting them is the most sensible thing I've seen in a game of mafia.
bessie hmmm.PNG
@bessie - What is this image supposed to communicate? Do you feel that this post from the worst should be taken seriously? If so, why? If this image is a joke, how is that any different from any of what you've called "active lurking" from my posts?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:58 amMore interesting? Maybe. Definitely less enjoyable. I suppose this is probably the second or third cringiest, most blatant series of misrepresentations formed into a push on me I've seen outside of games with the twins.
I’m not sure if you think you are insulting me by “putting me down” at the level of the twins, but as I like and admire the one of them that I have played with before, I will take this as a compliment.
Does Wisp know you talk about him like this?
@bessie - Even regardless of presuming that I find games with the twins unenjoyable (which I do not; they are close friends and a delight to play with, hence why I invite them to most games that I play or host), how is this question (and thinly-veiled OGI threat) remotely related to this game? Like, it's one thing to be aggressive in your posts, but what do you expect to gain out of this escalation into personal territory that has nothing to do with the game? This is just disgusting. If you are "serious about the integrity of the game", to use your words, then why the hell are you making a post like this?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:09 am"Osie's active lurking" - I'd had the most posts as someone being social in RVS but also trying to shift us relatively quickly out of RVS.
I didn’t say you were lurking. I said you were active lurking. There’s a difference between the two.
@bessie - I can see where you may have misinterpreted this point. The point I was making was not primarily that I had the most posts, but that I was being social and trying to shift out of RVS. That I was contributing serious content and that "active lurking" was not an accurate or fair way to describe my posts. How does the condescension of that last sentence help you to form reads or to communicate clearly and productively?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:09 amThis is already a TERRIBLE progression to have on someone; the case is shifting when called out. She came into the game with the intention to miselim me, so by hook or by crook, she's gotta scumread me! And in typical gish-gallop style, bessie has already called me out for not addressing each individual point made in her posts.
That’s a pretty serious accusation there. You are saying that I came into the game with the intention to eliminate someone in particular. Can you clarify as to when you believe I made this decision in relation to the timeline of the game? Because you obviously don’t know me at all or you would know how serious I am about the integrity of the game. Oh, and bolding something doesn’t make it true.
@bessie - This has already been explained, but why leap to assuming that I'm talking about pre-game? The more standard interpretation would be that I was talking about you formulating your posts, which would have happened after the game had already started. Also, why assume that I'm bolding it to suggest that it's true. I'm using bolding to delineate different sections of my post, as one does when they make a long post in the way that I do. Again, this feels like you wanted to find something negative in a reasonable statement, and therefore did, rather than interpreting the statement in good faith. I don't think this was something you planned before the start of the game. But your posts do not read as genuine, and I'm not the only person to note this.
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:09 am[*] "IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM???" - What? I can't tell what this is referring to and even if I could, there's nothing in that quote that remotely resembles saying nakedly "I'm town".
Interesting, it’s right here:
osieorb18 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:39 pm
Conf Town:
osieorb18 – Myself
@bessie - What is scummy about putting oneself at the top of a readlist? If it's not a big deal, then why perpetuate this poor communication in the form of this meme of sorts that you keep on repeating? Or is town claiming one of the number one scum tells by which you sort people? Why didn't you distinctly quote the relevant part of the text earlier to make it clear to what you were referring? Why are you acting like this should have been obvious when it clearly was not?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amosieorb18 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 31, 2022 8:09 amBessie's just scum here. And like, if she was Town, this push is SO wrong, SO laden with bad faith, SO obnoxiously misrepresenting, that it would probably be better for us if she was not playing the game.
Oh rude. And borderline something. You want me gone? Then vote me out, night kill me, or take it up with the mod. But don’t try to imply that I don’t belong here.
@bessie - As explained earlier, this
IS a push for you to be voted out. This is not "This person doesn't belong." Again, do you see why this would feel like choosing to read the worst possible interpretation of my words? Whether or not it is the case, I will presume that your statement here was made in good faith. As such, I apologize for the misunderstanding, should it exist.
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amHmm, after more thought I think like it. I should make this my sig.
@bessie - If your frustration is genuine, this sort of flippant comment really doesn't support that. Why post this, especially mid-game? What does this contribute?
bessie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:40 amMore in a bit. I’m having trouble with my computer locking up and it’s taking a long tome to make replies.
@bessie - I get that making long wall posts in which you combine what would otherwise be multiple posts into one is something that you've adopted as a style, but especially if you're having difficulty posting them due to your computer locking up, maybe that's a reason to separate them out into more posts? That's certainly not something that I would find scummy. If anything, it makes it easier to read your posts, and facilitating communication is townie, no?
is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?
