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Votecount 0.4

2-shot Roleblocker: Fred
Day Rolecop: Moody
Vengeful Mafiate
1-shot Janitor
Godfather: Moody

Not voting:
Boomfrog, Wam, Swiss, Mak, Madge, Seven, JC, Fonti, Bessie, Sabrar

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
Setup has been posted here for convenience. Madge replaces Heury.

With 12 players, it takes 7 votes to lock in a Mafia Perk. Two perks can be chosen.
The deadline for Day 0 is December 2nd, at 9:00AM EST, or when all mafia roles are locked in.

Vote Rolecop, Vengeful

Also whoever made me able to tab then spacebar to post deserved to be shot.

"Everyone has two votes on Day 0, and these can be removed and changed as often as you like, just as with normal voting. Note that you can't place both your votes on the same perk, however. When a choice reaches 7 votes, it's locked in and can't be changed. When two perks have been chosen, the Mafia have a brief period to decide amongst themselves which of them get which perk, and which one stays as a Goon. After that, the game starts with Day 1 and progresses normally."

If none of us vote, no majority is reached and as per the rules - no perks will be assigned.

@mod will you honour the rules and give no perks if no perks are selected

Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:52 am @mod I asked you why Huery replaced but it's buried

For the integrity of the game this question should not be asked nor answered. We should also not speculate on that.

You're like a dementor, following me around simply to drain the joy from my life.

By the end of this game I will be a barren husk, devoid of the boundless wit, guile and cunning I am known so well for.

I look forward to your opinion on Moody

I'm happy to be of service.

Why moody? Do you want my opinion now, based on 3 short posts with no real interaction with anyone or is that expectation for the future?

Sabrar wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:46 am Do you want my opinion now, based on 3 short posts with no real interaction with anyone

Yep, thanks!

Does that make Bessie your Patronus?

If I was voting for town perks as scum, I would get weak doc, Vig, and Cop, and hope to receive Godfather and Janitor. Backup for Janitor would be day cop. I feel like that combo would have the highest potential for town-on-town, as a Vig with bad reads is just as good as having two nks, a weak doc potentially eliminates themselves, and a Cop has a 50/50 shot of being insane and not realizing it until it's too late, especially with a Janitor to muddy things up.

The problem with a Vengie boi is that it has the potential to flip a 3v2 into a scum win with only a 1 in 5 chance of town pulling that one out, and scum can pick their worst player to be sacked for an easy extra kill.

Vote: Vengeful, with the intention of voting for the second scummiest until the other two are gone.

Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:05 am "Everyone has two votes on Day 0, and these can be removed and changed as often as you like, just as with normal voting. Note that you can't place both your votes on the same perk, however. When a choice reaches 7 votes, it's locked in and can't be changed. When two perks have been chosen, the Mafia have a brief period to decide amongst themselves which of them get which perk, and which one stays as a Goon. After that, the game starts with Day 1 and progresses normally."

If none of us vote, no majority is reached and as per the rules - no perks will be assigned.

@mod will you honour the rules and give no perks if no perks are selected

Whilst i see where your going and I love a loophole in rules this does feel a bit game breaking.

1st post

moody7277 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:11 am Flips are important enough that I'm going to FoS anyone who votes for it. I was in a game without flips, and town got steamrolled.

For reference this was in response to Freddino's question why Janitor is bad. Given moody's previous experience with the mechanic the reply makes sense and the wording also fits his usual style (he definitely used preemptive FoS before).
I don't consider the rest of the post relevant.

2nd post

moody7277 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 1:23 am Perq vote: Godfather, Rolecop

Not a fan of this but coming specifically from moody it is not as alarming. More details in the following section.
I don't consider the rest of the post relevant.

3rd post

moody7277 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:40 am W. Doc/Vig/Mason sounds like scum's best choice due to excluding the most powerful choices.

This a perfectly reasonable assessment.

moody7277 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:40 am Roleblocker is bad because of our information powers possibly being shut down, and two chances at it is worse
Rolecop is not as bad because scum already know what powers town has, so it's only a matter of seeing who got what for them
I don't have enough info on vengful mafiate to give a good opinion, based on the name it would be that scum has a kill upon being elimed?
Janitor is the devil
Godfather I feel comfortable we can work around with interaction analysis

I disagree with this analysis on multiple levels. In my opinion it downplays the impact of GF and Rolecop while overestimating Roleblocker. It also makes the indirect claim of moody not reading the actual roles, which is a discussion all to itself and best reserved for D1.
This would be a definitive red flag from a more seasoned player, however (and I wish to emphasize that the following is not meant to insult or belittle moody in any way) I do not expect moody to be manipulative. He generally does not have enough presence to be a town-leader and he is fully aware that other players will form their own opinion. Therefore he is either town giving his honest opinion (which I think is misguided), or he is scum trying his best to get the powers he thinks are best for his team, hoping for the best but acknowledging internally that he cannot push it onto us. It is (for me) impossible to determine at this stage which scenario is correct.
I don't consider the rest of the post relevant.

Overall while I disagree with moody about the impact of several roles, he is consistent with his ideas and his playstyle fits with either alignment. Based on tone I have a slight townlean but I don't think I've seen him play scum in a long time. Which reminds me to check D1 of Crossover where he was scum (and was 6 years ago so surely relevant).
10 minutes later: it looks like he was a bit more verbose there. No other conclusions.
As expected I have a null-read, if I was forced to guess I would say town (not taking into account the base 72.7% chance).

boomfrog wrote:Why do you think the setup options contain both doc and weak doc? Why is Vig not powerful?

I don't, that is weak doctor/vigilante/masonizer. Scum might give town vig due to the consequenses of it going wrong, whereas cop and doctor don't have a downside as dire.

Sabrar wrote:GF being protected from Vig is a factor but less so

It's more than just "shows up to cops as town"? Well chirp that, I've been assuming what I've always heard about the roles.

unvote Godfather
vote Vengeful

Recommendation: don't talk about reads before scum assign roles.

fontisian wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:07 pm Recommendation: don't talk about reads before scum assign roles.

Assign?

Ignore that have worked out what you meant.

Ye. Especially if we give them vengeful or godfather, letting them know which of them is the most scumread before they choose who the roles go to would be unwise.

Sorry, should have said something earlier

Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:46 am Everyone exclusively just banging on about mechanics and not playing mafia. At what point did these things become mutually exclusive. Stacked game my ass. Let's just lock in some perks and start lynching.

kinda with you on this tbh but there are some potential gains to be made via the papertrail we create here. Not sure a difference opinion this tho really implicates how stacked the game is, good players can reasonably disagree about the marginal information gains of this meta exercise

Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:46 am

Makhaira wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 6:15 pm Am I reading wrong or is my understanding correct that town roles have yet to be assigned and that scum pick town roles after we all lock in the scum roles by vote?

scumlean

lmao wack, Im literally getting early scumread for misremembering some of the rules and being too lazy to go back and check, its NAI tho I swear I was scum last game when I did it but town this time

Seven appreciate the clarification on vengeful, so it seems like its kind of a hedging role to give scum a boost if the vengeful mate gets elim'd early on? Im assuming it doesnt trigger if the vengeful mate is the last scum alive because upon elim of the last remaining mafiat town has already reached wincon before night phase hits, so its essentially useless in endgame unless we are in a 3v2 situation and pick the wrong mate?

I definitely failed to consider that godfather would interact with weak doc such that weak doc wouldnt die when protecting the godfather and thus create a softclear for the godfather if the godfather opts to allow that to happen (thanks again seven for letting us know the rolenames are clickable to open the spoiler text, I had no idea they could be clicked lol)

Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:05 am "Everyone has two votes on Day 0, and these can be removed and changed as often as you like, just as with normal voting. Note that you can't place both your votes on the same perk, however. When a choice reaches 7 votes, it's locked in and can't be changed. When two perks have been chosen, the Mafia have a brief period to decide amongst themselves which of them get which perk, and which one stays as a Goon. After that, the game starts with Day 1 and progresses normally."

If none of us vote, no majority is reached and as per the rules - no perks will be assigned.

@mod will you honour the rules and give no perks if no perks are selected

shades of Overswarm here trying to break my Bad Idea Mafia setup lmaoooo

I see where youre coming from on this but I think the majority required voting rule only applies to elimination votes, not these pregame votes. It kind of defeats the purpose of the setup if we can loophole our way out for voting for scum roles, might as well play a fully mountainous game at that point. Clever take tho Ill give you that

Really torn between votinf 2 shot RB & godfather vs. Two shot RB and vengeful rn

Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:05 am @mod will you honour the rules and give no perks if no perks are selected

there's no indication in the rules nor setup that deadline matters for d0. That timeframe was merely for our convenience to figure out if the differences in views for mafia perks are irreconcilable, resulting in an unplayable game.

However, we may extend it at our discretion, unlike normal game days.


We cannot comment on the replacement reasons either for privacy and/or game integrity reasons, this is the policy for all replacements that don't give their reasons in-game. Heury is welcome to explain in the memorial thread if they desire, handled appropriately of course, though I expect all players to respect their privacy and not pry.

I'll add the question wasn't missed, just hadn't discussed how we wanted to address it.

@EGW: When you do votals, can you either have a link to a deadline timer or a "....or in about 1 day, 2 hours" for those of us who are not familiar with US timezones?

@Seven: can you do a personality analysis on ME ME ME ME

nb: I wrote this post as I read, so it might be weirdly disjointed

This is GREAT, I replace to avoid D1 and INSTEAD I get to deal with D0.

Ah yes, as predicted by moody:

moody7277 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:40 am

Adum wrote:Madge replaces heuristically_alone

As much as Madge hates D1, I can't wait to hear her feelings about D0.

To answer someone's question: Heury replaced specifically to make me play from the start of the g ame, it was a mean and deliberate thing done to annoy me. (no, i have no idea)


I don't think the mafia roles are all unbalanced with each other. I agree that the biggest problem would be the combinations. I like the idea of combining vengeful with janitor, as that effectively nerfs one or the other

Sabrar wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:07 pm

fontisian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 2:03 pm ...

You have a thread where you post spoilered thoughts on the game.

Isn't that a huge cheating risk? Even accidentally, if it pops up with a search.

I'm going to set a reminder for a few weeks from now to find a better way to do that, if that's OK with you all.

It was heavily used on the old xkcd forum and I do not remember any cheating allegations because of it (there may have been before my time). Few accidents did happen when a player had to sub out due to reading a spoiler but the entertainment it provided was far more beneficial.

There was one cheating allegation (I'm sure Bessie has already brought it up) where someone made a reference to something someone said (e.g. "Sabrar said I was acting like a mackeral in a soup tin, but I'll have you know...") and the mod posted basically saying "Sabrar said that ONLY in a spoiler in the discussion thread" and modkilled the offender). I don't think I was ther for it but I heard the legend.

But yes the discussion thread is a staple and fun and I heartily encourage the newbies to engage in it, or at the very least to read through it at the end of the game and see how nice it is to see what mafia was plotting just before they killed you.

@Bessie: I love you dearly, too. Somehow our hydra (messie) worked out OK.

-----
Actual discussion of roles:

2-shot Roleblocker: This seems fine, honestly. typical mafia role. So many ways to mistarget and only two uses
Day Rolecop: I'm unsure why people are so scared of this. Yeah, mafia gets info about townies PRs, but only 1/3 of townies have a PR. Mafia have a vareity of reasons to kill people, and targeting town PRs will add a layer of complexity in their kill decisions and mean that good townie scumhunters might slide by because they have no PR
Vengeful Mafiate: I don't like this at all. An extra kill can be fatal. (ha ha ha ha)
1-shot Janitor: This I'm torn on. It's one shot, so it'll suck, but only once. But it'll mean we can't know MELO/ELO so IDK
Godfather: This is a weirdo version of godfather that seems too tricky. Don't want to touch it thanks.

I think I already wrote here but regardless I think that the vengeful+janitor combo is very interesting. There's a risk of janitor that I didn't see mentioned, though: it'll mean we don't know who the townie is, which means we won't be able to look at their past interations and maybe backform night results. How do we know if bessie was townreading wam because bessie just got a feeling, or was bessie maybe a cop?

think the setup info in the thread should include the game details in the signup thread as I've found all that very confusing lol. So, we have 3 mafia and 9 town. This makes the janitor argument above hold a LOT less weight: there's no huge dilemma in whether to janitor the goon or not.

My power power rankings:
Vengeful
Godfather
Janitor
Rolecop
Roleblocker

I don't think Janitor+Rolecop is a good combo to put forward, because of synergies I think are obvious and don't want to provide to scum.

I think rolecop+roleblocker also synergise pretty well.

I think I'd choose roleblocker+janitor or godfather

madge wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 11:00 pm@EGW: When you do votals, can you either have a link to a deadline timer or a "....or in about 1 day, 2 hours" for those of us who are not familiar with US timezones?

Affirmative.