Tales of Desolation mafia Engame

[Santygrass]

I still think its rich to shade a new player who had to sub in and struggling to say they are not playing. Specially knowing that Im ignored when I ask them for reads and their input is also minimal, and like everyone has their own style of play so its understandable. if you want to see more from someone try to help them and engage instead of shading , JC has made no attempt to engage with them or provided much reads. Like to me it feels like he still using the same input from 2 days ago and not evolving much their view. And even if would provide 1000x posts than them I would think of saying to them they are not playing .

Sorry if it came of as brash/rude but I still found that post distasteful to phillip

[Santygrass]

Anyways still parsing through Bops ISO , but rn I think last scum is probably Boomfrog :wowee:

[Santygrass]

Anyways still parsing through Bops ISO , but rn I think last scum is probably Boomfrog :wowee:

And if it is EGW my man you will have to pick up my gloves tomorrow and pop off and not let yourself to be yeeted

[Santygrass]

BOP ISO - Interaction with PoE'd slots

ahipoo|phillip - Conclussion : Towny

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Hey Moody, do you have a night action? No need to specify faction or power. Simply, yes or no.

God I'm never a fan of the "magician setting up the trick" genre of post. Always uneasy bc it's inherently based on information we don't have.

Honestly, I'm doing a lot of catchup on what the vibes are like. I really don't like being cagey and dodging direct questions. Is it suspicious to claim a role D1? Is it considered, like, rude? Or bad play? I mean if it is bad play, I could just own up to being a bad player.

I can't speak for the meta game of the forum but to try to get somebody else to claim a role in D1? That could make them a target depending on what it is I would say it's at best risky.

Say you out someone the mafia would very much like dead. Say you're hunting for a specific kind of role for some scummy or even non town independent purpose. It's early days so there's no inherent trust that your heart is in the right place(and that still wouldn't make it not risky.)

I think it's more the "you asked a direct question without any given reasoning as to why" that's at least my issue. Question doesn't feel direct when you're hiding your reasoning. Which you still did in this post.

I dont think these two posts seem really partnered? Specially the second.
Because Bop was,obviously aware of the situation and had input/advices and doesnt seem like hippo was getting any help there on what to do / parse through the situation from my pov

Ahippo: I’m not saying role claiming a complicated, contingent on others use twice role after failing to get someone’s night action information when asking if that makes sense and acting relieved to not have secrets can’t be scummy and this can’t be a great play by scum(considering ahippo does have a mafia history, just not a recent one). But I’m saying I’d need a life changing amount of suspicious behavior to see it that way. I do wish he gave/had opinions on anyone that being the case.

hippo was their TOP townread from their first readlist. I think it would be a ballsy af move if scum honestly, or at least a little waver. To me reading from Bop ISO just feels like they just knew hippo werent scum and was p much obvious in their eyes

Hippo and bubblez are both lame and cringe for OMGUS voting, its only cool and smart when I do it duh

And yes hippo fry me = pressure/elim the slot

Hippo starts responding to this, yet likely sees Bop's response in P-edit, and adapts his response after reading it.

Mak questions Hippo on this.

Straight up got ninja'd and didn't notice.

This, does not seem like a valid answer. This feels like Mafia trying to keep calm while being questioned, yet he gives an answer that doesn't make sense.

This interaction is super weird but FWIW I had the same impression of ahippo's vote on moody so it could be coincidence/groupthink. I kinda agree with Sabrar that this is too on the nose to be staged.

What remains to be seen here is the interaction is weird. Yet that's because of Hippo. Everyone is letting the claim clear themselves when their actions doesn't align with a town alignment.

I'm about to start swearing off handshakes for the next couple years just for what that word choice has turned into.

Not my place to defend him but I just can't envision a world where even as scum someone would panic at stealing somebody's word choice, lie that they didn't see to cover it up, and clam up because it worried them that much. I even considered saying high-five instead of handshake in my initial post which was the other word he ended up using. They're common "reciprocating a greeting" words and I cannot believe people are still trying to squeeze motive out of his handshake post and reaction to it. Your version of events making more sense to you than "ahippo happened to use the same word and didn't see my post until after" is wild to me.

Would I like ahippo to give reads? Yes, bc of his position as someone with a spotlight who to me is incredibly likely town. Do I think his reactions were suspicious? A panic at feeling like he was "caught in a lie"? I don't! It had basically been dropped when he moved on to his pressing Moody abt a night action-I believe the wrong move, but not the move of someone scared they got caught on basic wording, and certainly not a D1 elimination choice! Even if you don't believe he's within 20 miles of guaranteed town, to be the person worth voting doesn't make sense to me at all.

I disagree on the claim take, but I can't for one second understand the handshake one.

He did not want to waste his power on someone without an ability. He did not think about the other consequences of his inquiry. moody welcomed him so he decided to be friendly and try to return the favor. Timing doesn't play a role.

In my theory of Hippo + Mak, Hippo is posting this sudden decision to distract from the pressure Mak was giving him. Do you note that, after that line of questioning, Mak didn't vote either of Bop or Hippo here? I can't say for sure if it would have happened because, Hippo posted this before that avenue could have been explored. That's why I believe he suddenly chose to ask Moody about an action.

So in your theory, Mak was coaching Hippo on how to get the heat off him.....that was coming from Mak??
Even the players who townread Hippo see this as a misplay, I cannot find a way entertain the idea that it was staged and somehow executed perfectly! And this is your main person to pursue?

This is Bop kinda hard shielding hippo when unasked. To me this feels like whiteknighting, like there is no subtlety here at all. And going against EGW agenda is also noteworthy

Ahippo- God I want opinions and actual reads so bad.I can understand the instinct to not have him “locked in” as town long game, it’s honestly critical to be able to change your mind and not lock yourself in a “but I was right the first time” hole, but I could not disagree more on the people discussing eliminating him off the worry that he could be gambity scum instead of stressed townie. He’s very clearly reading town to me more than anyone, even if he's wasting the opportunity by having a single take so far in the game. I agree on Wam’s take that I can’t imagine scum faking this tone esp for D1.

From Bop's second readlist D1. Guess where Hippo is? At the top townread slot again. There is a lot of security on certainty in this read for it to be partnered IMO.

Ahippo(who has req'd replacement) - I believe the claim, I read his actions as town, I wish there were more actions.

No much has been said about hippo since well, they didnt do much else, but the townread is consistent. This is from D2 , Now they are top 2 townread, Boomfrog being the new top townread (!)

Phillip: Cleared from prior’s behavior, but that’s not the strongest kind of clear at this point.

This is from Bop last readlist. Not the strongest clear at that point .

So for my viewer at home, WHY does scum!Bop defend hippo at early so much and consistently, and then when less people remain and in which their opinion and agenda are more influential they start DROPPING that read? It makes no sense. They showed already to have plenty of arguments and ways to shield them despite hippo/phillip not engaging much with thread. I dont see if this is partnered how they slowly dropped the townread despite whitekingting them so much early to make sense like.. at all.
It feels like Bop recognized that in a few days phillip is just more likely to get yeeted, and starting to adjust their read accordingly

Boomfrog - Conclussion : Lean Scum

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Boomfrog:
Similar read to Bessie, asks specific and direct questions and doesn’t seem to be afraid of making enemies day one.

First read from Bop on Frog. Talk about shallow whee

Boomfrog: Engaged, direct often enough, asks specific questions and has given us opinions on most situations and two full reads this early? Absolutely. Not seeing the sus readings others are.

From Bop second readlists. Again, not much difference in the reasoning from previous list, but apparently is enough to put them as *townlean*
Huh

Unless you have mech pointing to you that way , this is just... super self aware in a bad way? Not a fan of this entrance D2

Bah, you guys are no fun. I can see I'm not going to get this off the ground without spilling the beans early. I'm a JOIT and my power N1 was psychic, and I was informed that I was targeted by 2 different flavor cops. Presumably the flavor cops are town roles, I considered that one might be a scum role if a scum team or indy needs to target specific types, but the fact they targeted me feels very townie. Therefore, since flavor cops are town that means scum can be detected in some way by knowing flavor. Therefore, we should have everyone claim their flavor so either:

A) Scum lie and cops can catch them
or
B) Scum tell the truth and there is something significant for town to know to help us solve. Otherwise why bother giving town flavor cop roles?

Therefore, everyone should claim:
Aligned with or not with a Lord of Calamity
From Bersaria or not.
Aligned with or not with a Shepherd

And @moody should pick the claim order

I can tell I need to get some sleep bc for one second I honestly read "copped by two different flavor cops" and thought "Oh! What if it's not two cops-what if its the same cop who ahippo motivated targeting you twice?!"



But I do stand as for this! I think long term it'd help a lot more than it could hurt.

We are on Day 2! This is just Bop signal boosting Frog idea.
In my head this interaction felt kinda unpairing because I thought Bop was "stealing Frog thunder" so to say. But on reread it feels a lot more tame and more like "yeah lets do this" .

Heck, Its very likely that the idea itself was talked about previously on scumchat and Bop be more of the idea of it having more flavor knowledge than Frog.

Also in the whole Frog vs Sabrar crusade from Frog, Bop picked to vote / shade Sabrar. Both of their agendas D2 matched a *lot*

Really? You don't understand why scum!BF would make up a claim that might get the heat off of him? If there are no 2 flavor-cops in the game, that will only be revealed much later and if the claim is true I doubt the 2 cops would come forward to say his claim was true, so we're left in the dark.

Here's my thing:

If Boomfrog was making up a cop....why make up two? Does that help that story at all? Does it make it more believable? Does it sow more trust? I don't think it does-so it seems like a really specific detail to throw out to save their skin.

But more to my point, I'll ask this.

Sabrar, if you truly don't think any of those things would indicate alignment, even if you think Boomfrog should still be the day vote, even if it turns out there are no flavor cops and we only find out character and can look up game when somebody flips,what do you think it hurts to do the claiming that is being proposed? Is it still bad for us to get some information to compare to what's revealed at the flip?

I think this is one of the posts that made Sabrar think Bop was likely a cop. Because they showed no hesitance or like, high sense of security that Boomfrog was telling the truth.
So, the question is, how come Bop could've known Boomfrog wasnt lying if they werent the cop ?

I'm fine with either deadline but I agree that I don't have a schedule where it'll effect me either way. Since other players want to go to Wednesday, you can consider me down for the full extension.

Back from the Animal Kingdom for the scum Boom read. (gonna have to forget abt Messie just to keep my opinions clear)
Also back from Pick Your Poison for the scum Sabrar read. God. Let nobody say I did not try to understand meta here. And like, both players make good points. Unfortunately you're both good players and your posting styles don't differ in obvious ways which is infuriating. You also regularly butt heads. When I read animal kingdom I did start to believe "hmmm. Boom does post similarly in this game" but then Boom posted the same way in PYP as town! One thing that I really thought was interesting was Sabrar calling back to Animal kingdom in PYP as scum to push a scum read on town Boom. While I think PYP's actions rings more true to this game, honestly I feel like all I learned is both of you are capable of being convincing to players who know you deeply here so meta is not going to solve the situation in front of my eyes. I should focus on what's being said here. I should have come to this conclusion earlier.


@Hippo, According to Mak's prior experience as a motivator, Sabrar probably wouldn't know until this night. But this ups the stakes. If Sabrar is scum, then affording scum an extra night action in a game with three townies dead in a row is a nightmare. I think that's enough to push me the rest of the way to:

Vote: Sabrar

This is Bop attempt to meta-dive and elaborate on both Sabrar and Frog to make up their mind. And like, even though they make an effort they legit dont find anything conclusive, and instead of going "I dont feel sure there is a scum between you two" they vote Sabrar.
In case we thought Sabrar was a hellbusser this is mighty clearing aswell for them, but the explanation on this vote is just bad, and they are not even talking about their previous frog townread here. Its super ick. And its a post matching Frog agenda so I can see the *forcedness* or weird feeling from this post being a result of Bop trying to push scum agenda rather than naturally solve in the multiball aspect like other posts they made previously

Boom - We agree on too much, actively hunts, I earnestly trust where Boom has gone and is going.

I agree with Bop here. They lowkey agree on too much.
I pointed out to them that our list also had a lot of similarities, and yet despite that I was at the bottom xD. There is nothing Frog has done that is told here why are they over hippo. Worrying, to say the least

Boom: Flavor confirmed by cop. The reason we’ve gotten any of this claiming started and helped get the ball rolling on Wam. Great at trying to drag reasons out of people who don't leave them.

Last readlist from Bop, and again being very generous to Frog. They for sure didnt cared about me sussing Wam . But yeah this is focusing on stuff knowing what is a good look and not showing signs of *evaluating Frog* , instead feels more like trying to push this read as consensus town

EGW - Conclussion: Town

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

EGW- Recently started being active. Is asking direct questions and giving some takes at least, but too early for me to gleam anything definitive.

Again, starting first readlist from Bop, with a very "this player is playing the game" read. Comparing it to Frog which is definitive similar, even though it feels it says the same about both of them, Frog has like a better light, when this is just hard null. Something noteworthy for sure

He did not want to waste his power on someone without an ability. He did not think about the other consequences of his inquiry. moody welcomed him so he decided to be friendly and try to return the favor. Timing doesn't play a role.

In my theory of Hippo + Mak, Hippo is posting this sudden decision to distract from the pressure Mak was giving him. Do you note that, after that line of questioning, Mak didn't vote either of Bop or Hippo here? I can't say for sure if it would have happened because, Hippo posted this before that avenue could have been explored. That's why I believe he suddenly chose to ask Moody about an action.

So in your theory, Mak was coaching Hippo on how to get the heat off him.....that was coming from Mak??
Even the players who townread Hippo see this as a misplay, I cannot find a way entertain the idea that it was staged and somehow executed perfectly! And this is your main person to pursue?

Already mentioned in Bop-hippo spoiler, but the way Bop talks and refutes EGW just doesnt feel partnered. 1) Because Bop is going and refuting EGW push , and 2)Because its got a vibe of "bruh you are so wrong and I know Im right" to it thats hard to shake off for me. Not *impossible* to be partnered ig, but props to them if it is

EGW- Really similar read to Bessie-is engaged and direct(but wayyy fewer reads)As brought up above w the ahippo vote the“I've let scum pass by in situations like this,” is a reason to keep your guard up. It’s not a reason to yeet someone out D1 to avoid having been wrong. The “Mak and Hippo have been scheming to get themselves read highly” theory makes no sense to me and in my mind seeks to create doubt in some of the higher read players, which reads scummy. Pushing hippo and mak harder which is why they’re lower than Bessie, but neither seem easy bandwagons so not going for easy elims.

The disagreement in reads is enough to dismiss the engageness and directness (even though Frog being engaged was mainly the reason why they were a townlean) to put them as a scumlean in Bop second readlist.
Notably though, they were in the scumleans, but not in the bottom four, which were the /votables/ for Bop D1.

Unvote
Vote: EGW

I have a mechanical solve that says scum-team is {EGW, JC, Santy} by PoE.
I welcome people to argue against it either by pointing out connections or just general reasoning.
I might explain some of my observations later but providing full explanation would probably reveal too much info for scum.

Will look into this as I read. I know I have to get a new full reads list out and figure out my take on heury and Sabs new vote..

But in terms of the claim, I think @ahippo is next, with me on deck. I'm fine jumping the line if we want as I know deadline will get close again and ahippo seems to have less time to post, but also fine waiting.

We are in D2!!
This is Bop reaction to Sabrar vote. No attempt to defend them, and moreso an aknowledgment and not much more

Promise I will have more thought out takes on the above but it's moving a mile-a-minute(was still hoping to look into the connection bit Sab talked abt), so I just want to get my claim and some quick thoughts out of the way so we can move on the claim stuff.

I'm from Berseria. I'm aligned with a Lord of Calamity, and not aligned with a Shepherd. @hueristically_alone with @Madge on deck, I think you're up.

In terms of a quick read, I have said this before, it hasn't changed. I do not understand a reading of ahippo's actions that are a "scheme" by any means. Especially here:

I think he does if he is the one that plans it from the beginning. I dropped Hippo and thought he may be just lost in the sauce. However, look at his post I quoted. He said he'd have a day off, but then no reads came of that. Feels like scum that got locktown read, and took advantage of that.

If ahippo is/had been scum taking advantage of being read universally as town (which honestly has not even been the case. Those who think he's town have been steadfast but there's been competing takes) taking advantage of that to me would be tailoring his opinions to help his team. Not "not having to post reads." That's not even a bad scheme, that's just not a scheme!


and

That was Heury's reasoning for scumreading Sabrar. I think Heury was faking that. Also, I now realize you and the whole town are being snowed by Ahippo. Now I have a strong hunch that he doesn't have a motivate as a claim at all.

@EGW In terms of the "scum-slip-fake-claim-gambit" you're proposing, what happens if the mods hadn't clarified in that case? What would heur have gotten out of being the most outspoken person on that issue, dropping sab to the bottom if they're teammates? How would heur have gotten out of it?

They make this read, again going against EGW because of their read on hippo (now phillip) slot, and heurys push.

I wish things had been different and I was able to actually spend time reading and giving real reads. My day didn't go that way. Sabrar was my motivate target, and you'll see that they actively told me not to speak up about it. We'll see whether or not Sabrar knows or acknowledges it.

This just seems odd because of him ignoring Mak's advice. He wants Sab to confirm to clear him, yet the whole town already locktowns him. Why do this? Plus, he replaces out as soon as I question him. No reads at all.

But you've been questioning him, and he didn't replace the other times! What would have changed? I don't think trying to read into "Why a player would decide they no longer can play this game" when we literally don't know life circumstances holds a DROP of water, and meta game long term wise I really don't like setting a precedent where ppl try to dig into replacement reasons like that. Life happens!

This sort of butting heads.. idk maybe Im skill issuing but doesnt feel partnered. Bop feels on the logical highground when speaking to EGW and them like, not vibing

EGW - I believe the claim (I'm four for four on those. maybe I'm a useful idiot to anybody that early claims.) We disagree on almost everything and I find a lot of their reads frustrating.

Call me silly. But, I kinda believe the part about finding EGW reads... *frustrating* is real. Maybe is because I related to it, but feels very genuine

I know Im probably not going to convince you to townread hippo, but all I ask is that at least you keep a 'alternative' solve in mind considering v!hippo worlds, because its one of the reads I feel more confident about and would appreciate more overlap in our solves/views to see where does that lead

I already tried that and look where it lead me. Which, I will say in a way, is good that everyone locktowned him, because it allowed him space to abuse it, and not do anything with it. At the very least it seemed odd that he'd claim his target even though Mak suggested him not to do so. If I'm wrong on hippo, it's Boom. Yet you also top town him, and also I like his reactions to my wagon. So I think I'm not wrong here.

We disagree on what "abusing" townie status is. Ahippo didn't exonerate or damn a single person, which is what I think you'd want to do if people generally trusted you (also don't think that aspect, the "everybody locktowned him" has been wholly true.)

But it's more the last bit I want to understand. If ahippo flips town, why is that correlated to boom being scum? How are the two connected to you? Just process of elimination or something else?

sorry abt all the RL stuff madge!

I would like to revote EGW after that so much. You are just dismissing any type of content that does not fit into your solve.

I'm not sure how I can get you to see eye to eye with me. My instinct tells me they are scum. I'm going with it. I am only willing to vote those three so do with that what you will. If you want to vote outside that and ignore those players for the rest of the game, then we already lost.

I just, like....you're not going to consider current events if they're not already your solution?? How could this not be a compromise vote or at least something you're willing to discuss with us rather than fully brickwalling? How are we ever supposed to work with you?

And I mean this next question politely as I can. Your instinct has told you how many other people were scum before it's landed on your current three in the last, say, two real life days? 2-4 others? With your reads bouncing like that, why can you not even pretend to consider moving on this? If Wam flips scum we're circling right back to this in the morning. How are we supposed to work with you? What happens in a kingmaker?

Just more on Bop questioning EGW solve here. This doesnt feel partnered. EGW Clearly did NOT get the memo about the flavor implications, and Bop was the one who had it more covered about anyone else so its a very good look for EGW imo

Sabrar, what is your thoughts on the claim?

It is technically possible but a nightmare to balance. Doesn't seem to fit the flavor well. Most likely false.

I think that's where I land.

It's hard for me to accept a case based on flavor of all things. It seemed like you were pushing LHF because you had no other option. I'm town and my focus is not on other reading me correctly but in trying to be correct, in terms of in-game content. I don't really trust anything flavor wise.

I just. Please at least continue to post your results as a flavor cop even if you won't use them for your solves. My god.

the "My god." at the end. Please. The frustration here is like, so reaaaaal I believe this Bop genuinely couldnt understand what was going on EGW head even though they were trying to feed them into solving correctly haha~

EGW: Claimed cop, very useful to rooting out scum with all flavor claims on the table. Frustrating reads and would scare me in a lylo scenario, but strikes me as town with their lack of care of how those reads come across.

EGW read from last readlist, in townreads. The frustration to their reads, the fear of LyLo talked about there, feels like at least a natural read from Bop fmpov

Bubblez / Somitomi - Conclussion : Confident Town

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Oh also

Unvote

That wasn't a serious vote obviously

I've got to say I feel a lot worse with this added. I'd love for you to elaborate in your next post when you're able to put that together bc

Why me fry me is gospel tho folks, trust

Bubblez wagon plz

I really don't think asking for reasoning is that big of an issue, and you are drawing an awful lot of attention to it, but if you want to opp this hard on me that's fine buddy

Vote: Makhaira

To me this certainly came off as serious!

This was genuine questioning from Bop to Bubblez. On itself slight good look for Bubblez here

TehBubblez- I don’t think his initial defense was inherently suspicious, and I stand by that. I really do think the explanation during his unvote of mak was. Yes, being away makes your early vote seem like it has too much weight, but it reads like he’d have kept it at “this wasn’t a serious vote obviously” if he’d not been pressed on it. My opinion on him and heur changes based on if either flips anything, but I’m just gonna have to accept I read two completely incompatible people as varying levels of scum for now. That’s possible if this game ends up being multiball.

This is them being actively suspicious of Bubblez, not intent of backing down of it despite having an easy out of "they are not compatible with my other sus". Its also in the bottom four, aka the votable range

Also, based on how it's going I feel better w Bubblez than Fred here.

Unvote: Moody

Vote: Teh Bubblez

This is clearing.
For context. Wagons previous to this vote were Fred (4) , and Bubblez (3) . In NO World having more easy justifications to vote elsewhere, you decide to bus your only partner in a 15 person game, *specially* if you have an arsonist type of wincon. This is clearing .

[JC_DADDY25]

The problem with Phillip is he doesn't seem to be doing anything, and doesn't even seem to be paying attention to the game. It wasn't shade or not understanding that he is a new player, as much as it is I see them posting stuff to seem active, but not really posting stuff. They claim to have targeted Moody N2, and now are claiming that their action failed N3 and they were told that their action failed. They are now claiming it was a 2 shot action, and yet they were still able to use the action N3.

I know I tend to keep things close to the hip, and pick and choose what I want to answer, but what answers has Phillip given to any of the questions asked?

Maybe you're just mad that I didn't give you enough rope to misyeet me when you had the chance.

[Santygrass]

The problem with Phillip is he doesn't seem to be doing anything, and doesn't even seem to be paying attention to the game. It wasn't shade or not understanding that he is a new player, as much as it is I see them posting stuff to seem active, but not really posting stuff. They claim to have targeted Moody N2, and now are claiming that their action failed N3 and they were told that their action failed. They are now claiming it was a 2 shot action, and yet they were still able to use the action N3.

I know I tend to keep things close to the hip, and pick and choose what I want to answer, but what answers has Phillip given to any of the questions asked?

Maybe you're just mad that I didn't give you enough rope to misyeet me when you had the chance.

I am aware that phillip input has been lacking and would also love to see more. The way you did was not it under any means. Simple as.

Hopefully when I flip town you will weigh more my words on this and also consider how bad your read on me has been all game~

[EGW]

JC has made no attempt to engage with them or provided much reads.

That's simply JC's playstyle. I know his night play decisions are also good. He doesn't play like you or myself. I will note I have not seen JC scum however. So far he hasn't seemed too out of the ordinary.

[Santygrass]

Its Not my Fault

Legacy from the Skill Issued Champ




In most scenarios, we should assume that there is only one scum remaining . Keep that in mind, trying to solve in those scenarios is *very* tricky because you cant really see agenda being posted or pushed in front of you, at most the last scum only has to push one misyeet at a time, or just try to be the towniest they can be to win. A misclear could very well cost us the game. My advice is to revisit and read back, when Bop was also alive and try to solve from there, use flips into consideration as well . We are in a good position, learn to trust each other because at the end of the day one scum remianing means that only one person is lying, and you can assume everyone else tells the truth. Keep it in mind, dont let my sacrifice today be in vain.

I know that from the spoilers and quotes is hard to get what are my points and conclussion, so I will try to summarize my thoughts on every player left alive here.

• Heury : This is simple. They claimed to have been masonized with bessie, and bessie would provide information only if that were true, which they did. So Heury is confirmed town
• Sabrar : Bop was being almost consensus townread, and we only yeeted them because Sabrar pointed out their claim was not possible. Bop also voted Sabrar D2. Sabrar is always town. Last night I even ignored the actions plan to bodyguard Sabrar because I really believe they are the strongest power role that remains alive, and just able to win the game for town as long they are alive to solve. I believe in you, dont let my flip made you doubt, carry my corpse to the win <3
• Somitomi : In no Universe, does Bop vote their partner EoD1 that way, making them lead wagon. It just doesnt happen. Even ignoring Bubblez meltdown and frustration at EoD that some people were already taking as clearing. Somitomi is town
• Phillip : Already cased them as town D2 as to why all their push was people picking up on a newbie, that had a really transparent approach that just addep up to a really towny angle. Bop read on Hippo just reeks of TMI and whiteknighting, and them dropping the townread of this slots as the days passed by just spews them as town in my mind. They are also marked (Something that Madge told us about, and that with one or two nights it will probably be confirmed of existing)
• JC : Mostly cleared from being double checked by cops + Jailed on a night in where someone was marked. Could only be possible to be scum if they are some type of GodFather + Strongarm or Redirector to avoid the jailing. Not particularly cleared from Bop interactions, since they didnt talk much about Bop from what I recall, and Bop overall had them as neutral almost all game (understandable)
• EGW : Biggest indicator of them being scum is just their WIM falling off a cliff after Bop was outed. Their takes have seem so wrong and painfully blind to what was being discussed that is hard to fully trust them as town. But reading Bop ISO , there is a tangible frustration with EGW reads, them not understanding how EGW was working that doesnt feel partnered. They focused a lot of their posts in trying to point the *flaws* of EGW pushes, and like, why make an effort to prove wrong or refute your partner pushes? Makes little sense to me as a pair
• BoomFrog : By far out of the people alive they have the most equity and coordination with Bop. They are somewhat cleared by the cops, but I def could see them having a GodFather adjacent role, or not even a rol, maybe just not on the norm for what the calamity alignment we imagine should fit for scum . As I said, Suppresion mafia need some sort of leverage if they dont have a factional nightkill to survive longer.
  But talking about the game, the fact of them somehow knowing the flavor indication could be already a sign of them being aware of it thanks to Bop, but more importantly how Bop boosted this, and used this fact to put Frog as their top townread. Even from early D1 they made almost the same observations about EGW and frog, but Frog was a tier above, they always treated Frog in a more gentle light. Bop post voting Sabrar whilst rambling and hedging about meta is also a super weird and forced post, Bop and Frog just aligned too much to be a coincidence to me.
  But talking a bit more about their dayplay and not so much about Bop spew, I think the way they are kinda floating phillip as sus despite them being so sure D2 they were town, how they are talking to me "if you are scum you are the best I know" flattery just implies them seeing me as town in their view but not wanting to make waves because they need my misyeet, aswell as phillip. And same with EGW, having them as town by meta, but recognizing and floating them up by behaviour because its a yeet that is going to get traction.
  And finally, they are JoAt , they are a direct parallel to Madge's role (also JoAT), which was the Main Antagonist from Tales Of Zestiria. The last scum we have remaining should be the main antagonist of Tales Of Berseria. My case is closed~

And with this, all I wanted to say is already said.
If anyone has any questions, I'll gladly answer. Otherwise I'm okay with being hammered. Hope this is of help next day.
I understand that I must be slain today to not make things too bad if we misyeet someone else today.
I will be wishing the rest of town best of luck, I trust that we will be able to win this in the end~

[Sabrar]

i'll vote however sabrar votes. sabrar let me know.

Please vote Santygrass.

@Santy: thank you for your reads, it is greatly appreciated.

@everyone else: plan is still for the cops to check each other, the Trackers to track the cops (Boomfrog -> somi, JC -> EGW), I jail phillip.

[Sabrar]

Another thing to maybe look into is who changed their read on Madge in the second half of D2? She didn't claim to be marked, which I think a townie would almost always do, so suppression mafia could have had a reasonable suspicion on her.

[Sabrar]

@Boomfrog: could you please answer this? Could you also take a look at Santy's reads and comment? Where is he going wrong in your opinion, if both of you are town?

[Santygrass]

Another thing to maybe look into is who changed their read on Madge in the second half of D2? She didn't claim to be marked, which I think a townie would almost always do, so suppression mafia could have had a reasonable suspicion on her.

She claimed it to moody iirc

[Sabrar]

But that was after she was devoured N2, no? I don't think it was ever publicly discussed D2.

[moody7277]

But that was after she was devoured N2, no? I don't think it was ever publicly discussed D2.

Yeah, I was still being cagey about Madge until her flip start of D3.

[Santygrass]

But that was after she was devoured N2, no? I don't think it was ever publicly discussed D2.

Yeah. But I imagine Madge told him during D2 through their chat only no?

[Sabrar]

Yeah, but if moody never told it to anyone else, then the suppression mafia team would think that Madge hid it completely, which would make her sus.

[Santygrass]

Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah 100% .

They would think that either Madge was sus or that their mark maybe got redirected or something happened to it

[Santygrass]

Madge - Stand by her miller claim, and I tend to agree with her struggling to place people as explicit scum, especially at the game's pace. I like a lot of her takes.

This is Bop last read on Madge for the record. They believed the claim and were okay with her, not much sus to be seen.

But then again, if its an arsonist wincondition, even if they sussed Madge, it was in their interest for Madge to remain alive, I dont think last scum susses them after marking her, even if they suspected madge was potentially scum hm

[Santygrass]

Possible scum
Madge - I don't trust the miller claim. @Bop please take note here as well. She claimed late enough that she was confident there were no other millers who might claim, and she likes mechanics, that includes going for an early mechanical clear on herself. Only scum if it's multiball because she is sincerely trying to scum hunt.

Maybe madge is SK?

This is Boomfrog read on Madge D2

[Santygrass]

@Santygrass: Why does scum wam point out that Scum sabrar is telling on himself if they are partners? I have them hard unaligned because of that. And Sabrar sincerely thought wam was soft claiming flavor cop which he used for the "mech solve" on EGW. I'm sure they aren't scumbuddies.

Sabrar really doesn't like solving a game based on flavor. (And I don't either, but I consider this to be more of a subtle mechanic than just a flavor solve since everyone had very explicit alignments in their role PMs.)

Actually thinking it through more, I believe scum do have fake claims and used them so all the scum on the actual scum team have seemingly solid claims. Only people who were kinda off but not actual mafia are falling in this trap.

Actually, aside from you're hidden proof that wam is scum scum I'm pretty confident he is indy. Heury is actually totally right. (Also, Heury is probably indy but your right he's not scum.)

Unvote Heury

Holy indy-hunting woweee. This post is probably one of the biggest wolf indicators Ive seen I was so focused on murdering Wam that I didnt notice this. But yeah this is wolf solving to me~ .

Going from Madge potential SK, to other 2 indy reads is just a lot of focus on either the game being multiball or being couple of indys, with Imo I think are telling for the perspective Frog was solving here (aka knowing there was a scum faction with only 2 people already! There needed to be either other scum faction, or an indy/sk for it yo make sense)

[boomfrog]

Dammit Santy, we were on cruise control to coast into victory. Am I really going to have to re-engage here?

@Boomfrog: can you ask the mods what information exactly does your self-psychic ability give?
- Suppose wam targets you traffic analyst, what would your result be?
- Suppose Bop targets you with an absorbed Tracker, what would your result be?
- Would you detect any passive abilities not related to the power that was used on you?

Traffic analyst. Tracker, no.

Also, it's the same as bessies public ability besides targeting so you can ask the mod yourself.

[boomfrog]

Possible scum
Madge - I don't trust the miller claim. @Bop please take note here as well. She claimed late enough that she was confident there were no other millers who might claim, and she likes mechanics, that includes going for an early mechanical clear on herself. Only scum if it's multiball because she is sincerely trying to scum hunt.

Maybe madge is SK?

This is Boomfrog read on Madge D2

Yeah, and this was a damn find read.

[Santygrass]

Also, phillip Roleblock last night can only be possible if phillip is lying OR someone else is lying about their actions.

If Sabrar can confirm about how their role works against other manipulatives , we can potentially clear JC off of not being able to roleblock phillip even if they were a redirector.

Easy explanation would be 'phillip lies' . I dont think its the case, mostly because the openness of hippo claim at the start if scum come if they were genuine about their role and felt like it was easy to prove, so now phillip having to hide or make excuses about it doesnt match that.

So, if I assume Phillip as truthful, someone else has something more to their role which they havent claimed.
EGW and somi cop checks cant be fake since they were proven by Frog psychic. So only Frog remains with their Joat powers. Psychicj is obviously true, but then we have both Bodyguard and Traffic Analyser, both super easy to fake / not be true. So keep that in mind

[Santygrass]

Possible scum
Madge - I don't trust the miller claim. @Bop please take note here as well. She claimed late enough that she was confident there were no other millers who might claim, and she likes mechanics, that includes going for an early mechanical clear on herself. Only scum if it's multiball because she is sincerely trying to scum hunt.

Maybe madge is SK?

This is Boomfrog read on Madge D2

Yeah, and this was a damn find read.

The *only scum if multiball* and SK read there seem kinda too accurate for us not having a single scum flip at the time.
But props to you if you are town for nailing it !

[Santygrass]

I do think that with the proposed plan if somi/EGW are scum there are good odds of it being discovered tomorrow, so maybe its just all a big skill issue on my part . But if they are not then yes I inform you that you will have to re-engage and solve :hmmmyes: