Tales of Desolation mafia Engame

[moody7277]

Claim order:
EGW
heuristically_alone
Sabrar
Santygrass
phillip1882
JC
Boomfrog
Bop
Somitomi

[Sabrar]

Do we wait for EGW and heury for any additional claims, or should I just do it?

[moody7277]

You can go first. I'm 95% sure what role name heury's going to give, but I really want to hear from both him and EGW before we go on to Santy.

[Sabrar]

Some of the below is outdated but these are the notes I wrote during N2, with some early D3 stuff at the end.

I'm Michael, town Jailer (Roleblocker + Doctor). Flavor copied from Adum's summary:

Despairing utterly, Michael sacrificed his son to the now hellionized Maotelus in order to put a curse of loneliness on Heldalf, making him effectively immortal so others couldn’t kill him nor himself, but utterly isolated from everyone.

Mod-confirmed mechanics that might be important later

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- Normally I do not get feedback on my ability, not even if I successfully protected someone from a kill. I do not get notified if my action is redirected. I also do not get notified if my action is (partially) ineffective, like my target having an unblockable ability (e.g. Strongman). However I would get notified if my action fails completely due to me being blocked or because my target was invalid (e.g. commuting).
- Above might be true for other players as well who have similar abilities, you can ask the mod if it ever becomes relevant.
- Standard Redirector per Adum redirects all action taken by Player 1 to Player 2. So it affects 1 person only. Meaning that if both the kill and protection on moody were originally for someone else, then another redirectory power must exist. I kind of doubt that, since resolving the interaction between 2 different redirections can be a nightmare.
- Night-action order generally follows NAR including the golden rule.

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N1 action

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I decided to use my ability as a Doc (btw cannot target myself). Main considerations were:
- blocking a scummy player is unlikely to stop the NK, as that is more likely to be performed by a townie-looking scum who won't be tracked/blocked/etc
- I do not want stop a potential Vig-kill
- blocking a townie-looking player also hedges against a deep-wolf performing the NK

Target choice was basically 50/50 between Bop and Mak, couldn't tell you what exactly made me choose Mak.

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Mechanical solve

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We start with my brain fart. For some reason I initially thought that Boomfrog was claiming 2 cops because it would make it less likely to be counter-claimed. I think I know what scenario I was confusing this with but it's not relevant. I became aware of my mistake while I composed my reply to Bop here but I was stubborn and not ready to admit defeat just yet. So sometime later I accepted the possibility of town!BF, which would probably mean the cops being also town (even though at that time I didn't see the purpose). So with that out of the way here is the rest:
- wam: surely one of the cops for accepting BF's claim immediately
- Bop: surely one of the cops for accepting BF's claim and helping him getting claims
- ahippo: Motivator, confirmed by mod for me
- somitomi: town because of the EoD outburst from Bubblez
- heury: town due to mechanical reasons (mod-error, basically same reasoning as somitomi). Sidenote: this is the point where I expected Boomfrog to scold me as I have used that reasoning when arguing with EGW and we know that Boomfrog respects game-integrity same as I do.
- Makhaira: at that point Mak only claimed that he could not confirm me targeting him, which to me meant he wasn't using an active ability to be blocked. Also if he's scum then he would likely be the one carrying out the kill.
- madge: it was 70-30 that moody targeted her, given moody's +1 list and his understanding of madge's woes about D1. Madge would 99% target me as Tracker.

This leaves EGW, Santy and JC with no mechanical confirmations. Voting EGW was guaranteed to generate content. I reserve the right to do gambits when it is backed up by logic.

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Early N2 ponderings (if you read nothing else, please read this)

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- wam's flip points to multi-ball as his team has a flavor besides Mafia. It would also make sense to have 2 scum-teams, one from each game.
- if we accept the overall game-design of 2 different flavor cops needing to work together and Bop's theories, then Boomfrog is probably cleared because he was checked by both of them, he has a claim consistent with town and neither cop contradicted him. EGW would also be town here. I'm just worried that BF used psychic as scum in order to be able to anticipate what he needs to claim D2 to avoid being sussed and that there are other mechanics in play.
- if all the flavor-savvy people put it together wrong then this is on them and I take no responsibility whatsoever.
- heury is not actually confirmed town. There is a way he could have received a 'no comment' from the mod even as scum. however when I reread him during D2 (before coming to the original conclusion) I still found him townie.
- how does Santy know that wam's claim is fake? It would be bastard for the mod to give scum a fake-claim that can be easily disproved, so either wam somehow messed up his claim, or Santy is his buddy and this was hard-bussing. Or Santy has some other result on wam (either as town or other scum-team). If we accept that wam's team is flavorblind then Edna was surely the fake claim given to wam. However that might present an issue if Eiden is truly in the game. It all comes back to how Santy knew?
- Mak's outburst at me having a bottom 11 (i.e. including him) seems honest. But I guess he could be faking it. Yes, I know what you implied, yes, I'm paranoid, see below.
- how was Makhaira able to act N1? I know my action was successful because I received no feedback that it failed. There are 2 scenarios:
1. I was redirected to someone else. That person was blocked N1 but never claimed it. This doesn't explain the claim from moody's chat-partner, because they would not have seen me targeting Makhaira and they would have no way of knowing that he was my original target.
2. I was not redirected, but my action failed in a way that does not give me a feedback. E.g. Mak could be scum having Strongman, or someone else made his action unblockable. Or maybe Mak didn't read his role-pm carefully enough and he's naturally immune to RB.

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N2 action

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Who to target?
- ahippo/philip: no. Motivator very unlikely to be scum, ability gets used up tonight, newbie player is not considered to be a threat to scum.
- TehBubblez/somitomi: no. AtE means somi is town, unlikely to be targeted by nk, except for actual Doc-dodge.
- Boomfrog: if self-psychic was BF's best ability then surely he doesn't mind being blocked, right? Could also be nk-target. Definite possibility, but would mean blocking an almost certain town.
- madge: probably not. assuming she was moody's partner she is most likely town and probably not NK-target.
- heury: no. likely town, but still potential misyeet if people believe he is indy, so probably not NK-target.
- Laserguy/Santy: sure, why not? makes sense as either strong town who would be NK-target, or scum.
- EGW: probably not. if we accept the most prevalent theories then the cops are useful in detecting false-claims, so I wouldn't want to block them.
- Bop: probably not, for the same reason. Assuming of course that my inference was correct, which is not a given.
- Mak: probably not. It didn't help N1, so why bother?
- JC: yeah, I can see that. didn't leave a big impression, so did a quick reread. Still don't know.

So it's definitely Santy + (BF or JC). Let's go for JC, since BF should have a harder time continuing a fake claim.

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Why I didn't get the flavor implications

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To me the game of Mafia is already enough of a puzzle, with lots of interesting mechanics interacting with each other. I don't need another layer added to it, where I have to deduce what result X actually means in game terms. I was blissfully flavor-blind and somewhat deliberately decided not to invest too much energy into reading everything on the wiki.
I also think it is less fun when the outcome of the game is decided based on someone not being familiar with the flavor and making a wrong claim, and not based on people actually able to convince the others of their own agenda or their innocence.

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Early D3 addendum:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

- Confirmed with mod that passive abilities cannot be blocked, so that explains how Mak could do tree stump N1. If only he didn't make assumptions.
- Unlikely to have 2 scum JOAT-s in the same team. So Boomfrog is still town.

[Sabrar]

I'm 95% sure what role name heury's going to give, but I really want to hear from both him and EGW before we go on to Santy.

I'm 100% sure he will claim Velvet:

I am Velvet the Devourer (Death Masoning Vigilante). I targeted bessie N1 and Madge N2.

[moody7277]

And once again we show between that and the post Santy quoted earlier that I should not be trying to read these posts 5am Sunday first thing when I get up

[EGW]

Apologies, I've been stuck in the hospital with my dad last night and today and just got him home. I'm Laliah, Town Flavor Cop. I targetted Boomfrog N1, Mak N2. I almost considered Sabrar / Heury instead before doing so.

[EGW]

Town [EGW > Sabrar > Somi > Bop > Santy > JC > Boomfrog > Heury | Phillip] Scum

[Santygrass]

Ohh Sabrar being Jailer instead of only Roleblocker I thinks kinda much more sense lol.

Can confirm that I received feedback that my action failed last night.
As for claim I already did (?) But for having it here as well

Eizen - Town Bodyguard. (N1 on Mak, N2 Bop but failed) .

As additional in Laser last readlist they intentionally put Mak at the top in case they died the target was softed

[Santygrass]

please claim whether you're Zestiria or Berseria and if you're aligned with a Lord of Calamity

i'm sergie. not aligned with lord of calamity , but am aligned with shepherd.

Phillip has already claimed aswell (this + motivator)

[moody7277]

Claim order:
EGW Laliah, town flavor cop
heuristically_alone Velvet, devour/death masonizer
Sabrar Michael, jailer
Santygrass Eizen, town bodyguard
phillip1882 Sergei, motivator
JC
Boomfrog
Bop
Somitomi

[Bop]

These reads will very likely change, but quick thoughts right now.

Town
Boom: Flavor confirmed by cop. The reason we’ve gotten any of this claiming started and helped get the ball rolling on Wam. Great at trying to drag reasons out of people who don't leave them.

EGW: Claimed cop, very useful to rooting out scum with all flavor claims on the table. Frustrating reads and would scare me in a lylo scenario, but strikes me as town with their lack of care of how those reads come across.

Sab:Willing to backtrack when wrong, overall came around on the Wam vote, great mechanical write ups. Full claim is detailed as hell.

Phillip: Cleared from prior’s behavior, but that’s not the strongest kind of clear at this point.
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^{Pretty much anyone above this line I’m feeling good about. Obviously claims and actions could change this.}

Somi: asks good questions, good at clarifying, pretty much only in this neutral slot bc of getting by flavor claiming after the reveal of why it was happening.

_{Anyone below this line are my main suspects at this point.}
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JC: Ignored a lot of the wam stuff yesterday, voting for the claimed cop without an explainer. In a game with all flavor claimed and full claims incoming, this is an opinion that helps scum.

Heury: Fully the sk worry. This read has jumped around for me all game. Also going after the cop as opposed to anyone else here. Which if I'm right abt sk the reason for that is pretty obvious.

Santy: Wants to coast off of Wam vote, which could easily have been a bus (for instance. Had we decided to believe Wam’s false claim, they could still butt heads publicly in case one of them dies but would’ve basically both been cleared until then.) This also explains Santy’s insistence on only getting Wam’s potentially remaining teammates today-Santy is sure they wouldn’t be on that list, and has told us as such. I'm growing more sure on this. Also with their "I'm locktown" assumption they'd functionally be getting a second night kill through heury if we democratically point him.

[Bop]

Personally I never put myself in my read list, it's an axiom that I'm town, not a read. But I also don't care if others do it.

I agree with this, it's not really AI either way.

Imagine heury is mod confirmed town, how would you proceed Bop?

I'd lock them at the top and try to find discrepancies with the players who weren't confirmed. With our full claims coming, it'll be a lot easier to do. And honestly, I'd be looking at you hard Santy. I'd assume you're the next most likely, as you're the only one left with a weird lord/shep discrepancy, and are continuing to assert that you're locktown due to your Wam actions. Even if there's only Malevolence mafia, you're trying to make yourself the cleanest from what happened Day 2. Nobody else involved in the Wam elim has waved it around like a get out of jail free card.

[heuristically_alone]

Nothing additional to claim. Willing to vote EGW or Santy today.

[boomfrog]

Dont saw them replying to what Sabrar asked them in regards to bessie yet though

Claim is that they have only night-chat. Any confirmation needs to wait.

We can 100% resolve Heury's alignment then D4. We just need something only Bessie would know that someone we trust would know. From 2 people or from moody, our stump in chief. Then Bessie only tells Heury this information if she has mod confirmation that Heury is town. Heury reports D4, verifiers confirm and Heury effectively is mod confirmed.

@moody: got any good Bessie-only questions?

[boomfrog]

Heury is either the most powerful townie that we must protect

We never protect heury here, if scum wants to resolve him for us they are welcome.

Agreed

Why are you publicly talking about who you will and won't protect? And for the record, why did you so thoroughly direct protectives end of D2 if you were the protective and didn't need to publicize your guidance?

[boomfrog]

For both of you: What faction do you think EGW is on? Why do you think that faction has a flavor cop?

@Heury

EGW hasn't been cleared as a flavor cop yet right? I'm leaning on one mafia team with maybe a one shot special kills. At most 4 scum matea

He is 99%+ proven to be flavor cop. Does that change your vote?

[boomfrog]

Claim order:
EGW Laliah, town flavor cop
heuristically_alone Velvet, devour/death masonizer
Sabrar Michael, jailer
Santygrass Eizen, town bodyguard
phillip1882 Sergei, motivator
JC
Boomfrog
Bop
Somitomi

@JC_DADDY25 : Time to claim please.

[JC_DADDY25]

I'm going to be honest and say that I really want to pass on this, because I've always felt that it takes away from the game and I've never been a fan, but seeing how it has been decided to ignore the fact that scum have safe claims like Edna - and we're still doing this - well whatever the rest of you want to do is what we're going to do.

Rose - tracker

[boomfrog]

I'm going to be honest and say that I really want to pass on this, because I've always felt that it takes away from the game and I've never been a fan, but seeing how it has been decided to ignore the fact that scum have safe claims like Edna - and we're still doing this - well whatever the rest of you want to do is what we're going to do.

Rose - tracker

Safeclaims don't negate the usefulness of this, and certainly haven't served scum well so far this game.

Who did you track each night? What were your results?

[JC_DADDY25]

I claimed, I've already hinted t who I targeted n1 and doesn't really matter who I targeted n2 because it's already been said what happened there.

[boomfrog]

Can you state it clearly now? I didn't notice your hint. And you confirming someone else's N2 is useful.

[JC_DADDY25]

Yes sir. Heury targeted Bessie n1, I targeted heury again n2 to verify if his visit led to devour

[heuristically_alone]

@Heury

EGW hasn't been cleared as a flavor cop yet right? I'm leaning on one mafia team with maybe a one shot special kills. At most 4 scum matea

He is 99%+ proven to be flavor cop. Does that change your vote?

No

Dont saw them replying to what Sabrar asked them in regards to bessie yet though

Claim is that they have only night-chat. Any confirmation needs to wait.

We can 100% resolve Heury's alignment then D4. We just need something only Bessie would know that someone we trust would know. From 2 people or from moody, our stump in chief. Then Bessie only tells Heury this information if she has mod confirmation that Heury is town. Heury reports D4, verifiers confirm and Heury effectively is mod confirmed.

@moody: got any good Bessie-only questions?

Bessie, of course if I'm not confirmed town then don't tell me the answer.

[Sabrar]

Unvote

JC's D2 behavior is consistent with having a result on heury and I don't remember wam ever pushing there, but I'll have to check that later.