Tales of Desolation mafia Engame

[Sabrar]

What exactly led you to guess Madge was Moody's target?

Take moody's list here and look at all players evaluated at +1. Take out bessie because she is dead. Take out Boomfrog because he claimed self-psychic. Take out me for obvious reasons. Madge and LaserGuy remain. moody is very aware of Madge's woes about early game so there is a high chance that he would want to help her ease the suffering. Add the fact that Madge would target me as Tracker 99% of the time, while LG might have other considerations. The conclusion is simple.

[Sabrar]

I think PoE is EGW/Sabrar/JC/Somi for me now

Do you think a game design is possible where both flavor cops are needed to verify a claim, but one of them is scum?

[Bop]

First of all mods made my heart drop with the Wam/Edna fake flip end of d2.

Madge - I don't trust the miller claim. @Bop please take note here as well. She claimed late enough that she was confident there were no other millers who might claim, and she likes mechanics, that includes going for an early mechanical clear on herself. Only scum if it's multiball because she is sincerely trying to scum hunt.

I mean regardless of how this day ends I think I need to reevaluate the people I've cleared with how crazy this game has been.

Well, good point! This game is maybe a lesson for me in "you cannot just trust claims, people lying is mafia 101" which I cannot stress enough is mafia 101.

The idea that heury stole moody's neighbor is really funny, but also yeah really good get heury! It would've taken a lot for madge to get out w a dayvote just bc miller claim day 1 is so entrenched with some people (including me).

Well I targeted Mak and was going to hope he turned out to be a liar, and considered Santy as likely busser for Wam. Never mind on that though.

I can see why you'd nevermind on the first one but why on the Santy bit?

@Santy, @Bop: Updated reads?

I'll make sure to get mine soon. A little iffy on the fact that two of the outliers in the flavor claims were scum, after this:

Actually thinking it through more, I believe scum do have fake claims and used them so all the scum on the actual scum team have seemingly solid claims. Only people who were kinda off but not actual mafia are falling in this trap.

Actually, aside from you're hidden proof that wam is scum scum I'm pretty confident he is indy. Heury is actually totally right. (Also, Heury is probably indy but your right he's not scum.)

Which is provably untrue with Madge and Wam flipped. Makes me wary of Santy even though that would be a hell of a bus(santy was the FIRST initial Wam vote D2. But also if there's a multiball that doesn't matter!) Also the "here's the top three townies please protect them" list felt almost a little. Sidling up to those players bc people like to trust people who trust them? Pattern seeking wise I'm incredibly wary. But do need to reread the outliers especially. I'll get an actual list out soon.

And Bop, any guess why Mak was targeted with the NE?

Based on the moody/madge "a little birdie" talk, partially "a power role that wasn't being actively discussed as a protection target".

Also Mak was the player to bring up Immonant and the 8 types of malevolence, which were both brought up in the latest mod post.

"He had all the 8 types of Malevolance, you may fully awake once again and retake your throne, nameless Empyrean. Innominat."

Btw im still doing my lore deep dive, pretty sure we are dealing with an independent Innominat and that this role is the "devouring" role: https://aselia.fandom.com/wiki/Innominat

In the game lore this entity causes essentially a world purge to happen after devouring 8 types of malevolence that roughly correspond to the 7 deadly sins. I could see this indy role triggering a wincon after NKing enough slots to cover all 8 malevolence types. Be mindful that a single person could carry and count for multiple types of malevolence as this literally happens in the game, he consumes a main character who contains two types of malevolence. It COULD be multiball with Innominat being paired with Laphicet https://aselia.fandom.com/wiki/Laphicet

I could see this operating in like a "laphicet inherits the powers of innominat" capacity. This is all still speculation though and Im sorry if someone has already explained this im the couple pages I haven't read yet

Laphicet inherits the powers of innominat if and when innominat is elimmed*

Note that innominat himself does not spread malevolence and is intended to "purge" it from the world which I think clearly indicates that this is not the "malevolence" kill that hit moody because he was purified by the silver flame

If there's a mafia Immonant that gains abilities when certain characters/a character is killed, Mak could've been killed for that connection?

But also, if Mak was right here and we've got an independent or multiball scum who gains power from killing and devouring certain people(needing to eat malevolence...being mentioned in flavor as "waking up" after devouring Malevolence Mafia) I wouldn't exactly clear heury who matches the flavor and was kinda forced to claim after being loudened. That concerns me greatly too.

[moody7277]

N1 Madge said she watched Mak, said he was visited by Sab & LG/Santy.
She had mentioned something about getting a "Mark of Suppression", don't know if that's a lie
D2 she was being all "My reads are hopeless, I don't know who to vote for. Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope." Which was enough like her usual that I went along.
N2 it was between loudening heury and RBing EGW. She was mostly quiet about EGW, said she originally planned to RB him, but was gung ho about RBing Sab.

[Santygrass]

I think PoE is EGW/Sabrar/JC/Somi for me now

Do you think a game design is possible where both flavor cops are needed to verify a claim, but one of them is scum?

Theory-wise it should be. If not claiming Cop its clearing which I just dont agree should be the case . Like, for example we can treat the proven flavor cop in EGW case as a positive , but not as *clearing*. I always treat mech (and specially mech-speculation) as a complement to social solving

[Santygrass]

N1 Madge said she watched Mak, said he was visited by Sab & LG/Santy.
She had mentioned something about getting a "Mark of Suppression", don't know if that's a lie
D2 she was being all "My reads are hopeless, I don't know who to vote for. Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope." Which was enough like her usual that I went along.
N2 it was between loudening heury and RBing EGW. She was mostly quiet about EGW, said she originally planned to RB him, but was gung ho about RBing Sab.

Gotcha. I can confirm that my action n1 was on Mak , so I think the Watcher action from Madge on Sabrar is true. I think it unlikely to be partnered for a n1 action hmhmhm

[Santygrass]

@Santy, @Bop: Updated reads?

I'll make sure to get mine soon. A little iffy on the fact that two of the outliers in the flavor claims were scum, after this:

Actually thinking it through more, I believe scum do have fake claims and used them so all the scum on the actual scum team have seemingly solid claims. Only people who were kinda off but not actual mafia are falling in this trap.

Actually, aside from you're hidden proof that wam is scum scum I'm pretty confident he is indy. Heury is actually totally right. (Also, Heury is probably indy but your right he's not scum.)

Which is provably untrue with Madge and Wam flipped. Makes me wary of Santy even though that would be a hell of a bus(santy was the FIRST initial Wam vote D2. But also if there's a multiball that doesn't matter!) Also the "here's the top three townies please protect them" list felt almost a little. Sidling up to those players bc people like to trust people who trust them? Pattern seeking wise I'm incredibly wary. But do need to reread the outliers especially. I'll get an actual list out soon.

You might want to reassess on that thought real quick hmmyes. Like I should be p close to just cleared after yesterday , I also spent a great deal of time not just dunking on Wam, but also talking out EGW from Mak, also making long post about it. If Im scum Mak was *clearly* pocketed , and the whole thing you are reaching here to say to "make those players trust me" goes specifically against which player ended up killed.
And for the flavour thing I did recollect them all, and also showed to exactly know what it implicated. And provided explanations on why it said my character was aligned with both, when Wam and Madge both showed to have no idea how to tie them up.
Yesterday I popped off and I feel like im having one of the games when its like, super easy to find me as town lol. So kinda, just read my posts / solving and reasess tyvm

[Santygrass]

I think Mak could've been targeted because of wrong role speculation + being wary of Madge (iirc) . For the first bit mostly thinking about what he said to Sabrar about knowing that their role worked fine based on public information , so could mean that mafia though he was the devourer or second flavour cop that targeted frog

[Santygrass]

Also, we know for sure that moody was the mafia target n1, and Mak being n2. Im like quite surprised that *moody* was the target. If anyone has any idea or stuff that I missed from moody D1 that would be a target let me know, but otherwise seems like a kill from a team that was *okay* with the current state of things and didnt saw much of a threat between players, so killing a player like moody that wasnt on the spot or sussing specially anyone would just make maintain the same status-quo most likely (which would be a point in favor of hippo and somi)

[heuristically_alone]

I didn't know it would be published as a devour instead of a kill. Role only states that it outprioritizes a standard kill.

But the mod publicly stating that it was you who killed madge is part of your role?

Where did the mod publically state that I killed Madge?

[Santygrass]

The Mak post talking about the Innonimat though its a great point to not just blankly clear Heury of scum (though there is no way that they are malevolence mafia). I think if Malevolence mafia is done we will find out next night (no malevolence corruption).

From the wiki there are two other possible flavors for Malovelence Antagonists, but I kinda struggle thinking it is 4 mafia agains 11 town , cause numbers wise its mafiasided , being 13 town the standard number for it to be balanced against 4 mafia. It could be fixen somewhat if town has stronger roles, but from what ive seen so far I doubt it? Another multiball scum of 2 people *could* be the answer ,but with no indication of there being a second mafia by the kills (other than our claimed vig) is hard to believe, or 1 independent (this would be my bet? And still dont feel sure). So weh



With Wam being a redirectioner at least, we should be kinda safe-ish directing heury shot whenever we see fit, so I think we should discuss both the elimination for today, and who heury shoots. If heury ignores who we want dead, we yeet them

[Santygrass]

Published action(s):

heuristically_alone devours Madge

[heuristically_alone]

I literally read mod post like 5 times before I found it. I had skimmed over the blue text. Darn well that takes all the fun out of claiming.

[heuristically_alone]

EBWOP: and to be clear nothing about my role mentions it would be published or loud.

[moody7277]

My headcanon is still that the NK was redirected N1.

Also there is still a nonzero chance heury is a SK.

[heuristically_alone]

Who exactly Huery, be specific.

I'll tell you day 3

Evidence that I was planning on claiming today

[Santygrass]

Town

Santygrass - Towniest of them all. Shame to all the doubters
heuristically_alone - Vigilante. Shot Madge hard cleared
Bop - Never busses Wam that way, or Wam outs themselves flavor wise with Bop on their team
Boomfrog - Proposed what got Wam outed, and has their flavor checked. Claimed Joat, and Madge was also Joat. Watcher and Psychich also similar roles, the overlaps seems to indicate they are not in the same team tbh.
philipp - Hippo was obvtown to me, still is with their claim

EGW - I think they have a action proven+a flavor that makes sense, comparing to how hard mafia struggled to claim shepard+lord of calamity alignments is a fairly good look to me imo. +the approach makes sense coming into D2 and still being locked into Boomfrog. Counterpoint is how hard they refused to see Wam as mafia and hard to work with they were, hard wolfsided all day most likely, so it has to be held accountable

JC - Them questioning the neighborhood duration is a good look knowing that madge was the neighbor and possibly knew or could've asked herslef if it was of interest of knowing tbh. The focus on heury claiming therion, which was a heavy indicator to them being Velvet/the devourer doesnt fully sit right with me though, specially comparing their focus to this+calling heury indy and how like, they didnt question Wam at all on their claim
Sabrar - Madge used watcher action on them, its a good look. I think I know their role, and the perspctive somewhat adds up , but I still want to hear explanations to their actions to make a better judgement
Somitomi - Other than Bubblez Ateing EoD in a very towny way , I cant point to something else being towny. And its also a fact that they claimed their flavor alignments *after* Bop explained the implications. Fits a mafia team that struggled in that department imo

Malevolence Mafia

(This is to clarify that Im still not weighing much indy equity or multiball scum into consideration, we will probably knwo for sure about this tomorrow and dont like to throw shots in the dark. Just putting it here that if it is multiball the overlap between Madge and Frog could be something to consider as parallels)

[JC_DADDY25]

I believe Mak was last night's target because of his role, he hinted at his tree stumper role earlier in the day. No way scum would let him slide and take a chance that he protects anyone else.

[Santygrass]

EBWOP: and to be clear nothing about my role mentions it would be published or loud.

It was a result of Madge action

[Santygrass]

Madge, Heldalf, Malevolance Mafia Jack of all trades, has been devoured.

But all is not well.

"He had all the 8 types of Malevolance, you may fully awake once again and retake your throne, nameless Empyrean. Innominat."

Music to set the stage

The ground around the remaining party shudders as the very earth pulse convulses.

Then, a greyish aura starts emerging in populated areas. The party, out searching for Sorey, sees it from afar and rush back to Pendrago. What they are met with, chills them to their very soul.

Everyone in the city is acting like emotionless husks without any free will.

Visual illustration.

"Oh no", the still weak Eleanor moans, "it's happening again".

This is far from over.

@Bop fille me in here if there are any other alternatives or events. But does this point to Innominat being present in the game? y/n ?
If it is, how likely they are indy vs part of the malevolence mafia?

[Sabrar]

I am willing to claim. Scum lost both redirect and rb, some of my inferences have already proven to be false or confirmed, there is a single guess that might help scum but it's nowhere near groundbreaking (and of course could be false). We could probably do a mech solve based on available info.

[JC_DADDY25]

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that after Heury devoured Madge, Innominat now has all 8 types of Malevolence and has awakened...

Could it be as easy as it being Heury?

I'm quite aware that it seems like I'm tunneling, but dude still feels off.

[Sabrar]

@Santygrass: please elaborate on how you knew wam's claim was fake (besides flavor).

[JC_DADDY25]

@Santygrass: please elaborate on how you knew wam's claim was fake (besides flavor).

Maybe his fake claim is Eizen

[Sabrar]

@JC: don't you feel you also owe us some claims?