Tales of Desolation mafia Day 2

[EGW]

Are you reading JC as scum btw?

Heury, I noted you didn't answer this. I'd like to see you do that.

[EGW]

Besides not being present at eod I've done a lot to get people to generate content. Especially before you joined the thread. I sat back because I knew you'd start dominating the conversation and I needed rest.

What are your reads for today?

[EGW]

Im not trying to force you into townreading me, but this sort of shallowness / close mindedness is very bad if you want to solve the game. So like, at least *try* to consider how the solve is if Im town / if boom is town / if mak is town. Like dont preflip people you are only going to make your solve wack

I think my major concern with your entrance was it seemed like you cherry picked things and intentionally ignored good points that actually solve. However, this quote gave me a slight town ping. I'm dropping you from the solve. It reminded me of a concern that I actually didn't look into, until now. You actually helped me remember that too.

[EGW]

Wam/Sabrar/Bubblez/Bop, these 4 I do want to look at closer today. Sabrar I don't want to consider for elim. Bubblez is still higher on my list for elim.

I'm curious why no mention of Boom here. What's your read on him currently?

[somitomi]

Oooops, got distracted yesterday and now there's 4 pages of unread posts. Santy, you're gonna be the death of me

Does heury usually do these types of charts btw?

I don't think so, but then I made a graph about D1 votes in one game and have never done that again.

Okay, I gotta get on with stuff I planned to do this weekend so I'll get back to this

[madge]

@moody who should i vote for? going to have to log off soonish but can prob squeak out a quick post in the morning. i'm unsure after that and unsure of the deadline at this point.

[moody7277]

Starting detailed reads, but wanted to make one pre-emptive read. I'm putting Bubblez/somi at +3 town due to him pulling a Vytron (self-voting) near EoD1, recognize the mindset from the end of D1 in PYP.

In the game lore this entity causes essentially a world purge to happen after devouring 8 types of malevolence that roughly correspond to the 7 deadly sins.

Well, if we're talking sins, my character would certainly have had wrath since she has a whole "Hello. My name is Eleanor Hume. You killed my mother. Prepare to die." thing going.

This sounds like a fun role.

It sounds like a SK, which I suppose for some people could sound fun if you're bored of the usual town/scum dichotomy.

[moody7277]

ahippo

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

post 1: haiku in response to the poems by other players
post 2: counter RV to mine, D1 complaint
post 3: expresses agreement with wagon without voting
post 4: response to Mak about the counter RV, using the coincidental word handshake
post 5: says he didn't notice the post immediately before his
post 6: agreement with Bop
post 7: asking me about whether I have a night action

Here's the first instance of what is unseemly curiosity for town. Previous posts show that he knows enough about xkcdmafia culture to not be insulted by a RV.

post 8: resignation about the blowback on post 7, unvotes.
post 9: asks about claiming D1
post 10: claims two-shot motivator, felt comfortable enough with me to ask about using it on me

All the while expressing frustration at having no reads

post 11: agrees he would now be a target, likes openness better
post 12: says he's okay with dying and feels the role is not essential

which is slightly townie. Three days pass then

post 13: likes BF's read on him, appreciates Bessie's read
post 14: revises post 13
post 15: says xkcdmafia is higher quality than average
post 16: sus of flattery from BF
post 17: grief about the handshake issue, votes Fred
post 18: explicitly says vote is defensive, BF not necessarily scum
post 19: response to EGW about perceived hypocrisy, says he reads BF as scummier than Bessie
post 20: still says he doesn't have strong reads when poked by heury
post 21: reads list with Bop Bessie wam town, EGW BF LG scum
post 22: grief about JC criticizing him putting up a reads list
post 23: votes Bubblez, still saying it's defensive and his reads are crap

This post stinks to high heaven

post 24: response to Bessie that he's already told all

D2
post 25: Asks about whether anyone got the motivation as part of trying to prove he is town

More unseemly curiosity and bad motive for it

post 26: speculation as to why no one has claimed to be motivated
post 27: also says he could have been RBed
post 28: votes extension

With complete openness, I am firmly of the opinion that the handshake issue was a coincidence. That being said, the rest of ahippo's content is really sus. Grade: -1.5

[moody7277]

Boomfrog

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

post 1: first line town claim, banter with Sab, votes Bop, declares bubblez and Mak town
post 2: typo correction
post 3: banter about Mak not liking BF "pocketing" him
post 4: asks Mak about ego elim
post 5: admonishes ahippo about claim
post 6: wants more details from JC about his take on handshake issue
post 7: asks heury about his take on BF, unvotes Bop and says he's town
post 8: reads list with Mak Sab Bop town, Fred and JC as not helpful, votes LG

Since the list looks like it was ordered based on the player list rather than sorted within categories, don't know if heury and Bessie are next scummiest to LG. Also noticing a slickness to him that might just be his usual confidence regardless of alignment

post 9: again wants JC's analysis on responses to the handshake issue, and wants any content from Fred
post 10: waiting on LG before expanding his read on him, Bessie inscrutable and huery read as slightly scummy
post 11: revises read on LG based on his "low effort disclaimer", asks him about post by Madge, read on Bop

which at the time was roughly neutral instead of BF's ubertown read of Bop

post 12: asks heury about his conditional read on Fred, says he gives early opinions
post 13: brings up his basis for reading Bessie and asks Mak about it
post 14: admonishment to vote, wants Mak to set the potential candidates
post 15: response to heury's vote on BF, says he doesn't want distracting argument with Mak, Fred's pfp change not AI, votes heury
post 16: asking for reads and content from Madge, wam, bubblez, JC
post 17: likes earlier wagons, but not likely
post 18: says he's told 1 lie as info for Sabrar
post 19: asks me about my reads list
post 20: likes heury's WIM, still confused by his read of BF
post 21: points to more town!heury content, unvotes
post 22: further discussion with me re reads, reminded to poke JC
post 23: reread JC and concurs with my read
post 24: likes Sabrar being sus of him, answers a couple points he made, asks him about his read on Fred being slight town, thinks Sabrar is misinterpreting LG based on not using "low effort" disclaimer
post 25: outside stuff
post 26: says vote on heury was not sincere, was using it to test reactions and thinks he's caught Bubblez, asks EGW about them

Ah, the long awaited Boomgambit. More subtle than some in the past, but still appreciated

post 27: reads list with ahippo Bop Mak town, LG EGW Bessie scummy
post 28: concedes to EGW that Bubblez might not be scum
post 29: Bubblez overthinking about RV, doesn't like Bubblez counter vote, unconvinced by Bubblez reactions to Mak, votes Bubblez
post 30: asks Sabrar about Bubblez analysis
post 31: asks me about staying on Fred
post 32: shamed unvote of Bubblez after his self-vote
post 33: votes Fred
post 34: conciliatory toward Bubblez

Still getting occasional flashes of used car salesman, but I do like the reaction after Bubblez self-voted.

D2
post 35: Has flavor claim to make
post 36: Claims Berseria character aligned with lord of Calamity
post 37: couple of mod questions
post 38: response to Sabrar about mod questions
post 39: response to JC about his flavor claim
post 40: says he was likely targeted by cop
post 41: fluff
post 42: not aligned with Shepard
post 43: agreed with Mak on scummy read on Bubblez until EoD1. Trying to generate content
post 44: wants Sabrar's case on him and Sab's read of EGW
post 45: likes Santy
post 46: explains to EGW his Bubblez take
post 47: wants Calamity/Shepard claims from everyone, order to be set by me
post 48: still wants claims
post 49: votes JC due to lurking
post 50: asks wam about JC
post 51: tells JC he's been lurking more than just one day
post 52: asks wam about his read of EGW vis-a-vis ahippo

Second-order analysis like this always impresses me, maybe disproportionately so

post 53: asks JC about his read of ahippo
post 54: thinks ahippo lurking is okay due to BF reading him as town
post 55: asks Santy about JC's take on ahippo

Cynical View says these last few posts prove BF and ahippo are scum together

post 56: Was happy to pass content generator role to EGW
post 57: wants JC to interpret ahippo as naive town
post 58: likes that heury is being more involved, reads him as town
post 59: claims town JOAT, received result that he was targeted twice by cops, reiterates request for flavor claims
post 60: pings Mak
post 61: points Santy to Bubblez post which he feels clears him
post 62: outside stuff

Used car salesman feel and Cynical View's take aside, I think it's more likely than not boomfrog is town. Grade: +1.5

[Bop]

I'm a JOIT and my power N1 was psychic, and I was informed that I was targeted by 2 different flavor cops. Presumably the flavor cops are town roles, I considered that one might be a scum role if a scum team or indy needs to target specific types, but the fact they targeted me feels very townie. Therefore, since flavor cops are town that means scum can be detected in some way by knowing flavor. Therefore, we should have everyone claim their flavor so either:

A) Scum lie and cops can catch them
or
B) Scum tell the truth and there is something significant for town to know to help us solve. Otherwise why bother giving town flavor cop roles?

Therefore, everyone should claim:
Aligned with or not with a Lord of Calamity
From Bersaria or not.
Aligned with or not with a Shepherd

So you're a JOAT (assuming that was just a typo), and your N1 action is restricted to be specifically a psychic on yourself. Am I understanding this correctly?
Since we know that town can be aligned with either Shepherd or Lord of Calamity, and we know that they can come from either Zestiria or Berseria and we know that scum have fake-claims, why do you think the above claims would help us solve? At this point it's full-claim or nothing.

@Makhaira: sorry to hear that man, my condolences.

@BF: If you're thinking something like association with a Lord of Calamity is correlated with scum, I've got bad news for you. I was associated with a Lord of Calamity (named Velvet, very tacky dresser), so that might explode your theory if it was such. I also would feel highly unqualified to pick claim order.

I think it will be helpful but I'd rather not explain how it will be helpful because than scum can work around my plans.

Agreeing with Boom on this-full claims leads to way too much information for potential scum but claiming the two things proposed I think could massively help us-esp if Boom is telling the truth as we have two cops in play, we'll be able to compare results from there as the game progresses!

[Bop]

Bah, you guys are no fun. I can see I'm not going to get this off the ground without spilling the beans early. I'm a JOIT and my power N1 was psychic, and I was informed that I was targeted by 2 different flavor cops. Presumably the flavor cops are town roles, I considered that one might be a scum role if a scum team or indy needs to target specific types, but the fact they targeted me feels very townie. Therefore, since flavor cops are town that means scum can be detected in some way by knowing flavor. Therefore, we should have everyone claim their flavor so either:

Especially bc this claim involves two flavor cops, which I'd assume can find out some mixture of character/game/what you're aligned with not in the alignment way.
To me this is like a home run easy to catch lies! The argument "yeah but scum could lie then" like....yes....And then we could catch them in those lies later in the game.

(Barring Madge of course.)

Struggling to see what Boomfrog would gain from this claim as scum, but easily seeing the logic as town.

[Sabrar]

Agreeing with Boom on this-full claims leads to way too much information for potential scum but claiming the two things proposed I think could massively help us-esp if Boom is telling the truth as we have two cops in play, we'll be able to compare results from there as the game progresses!

Especially bc this claim involves two flavor cops, which I'd assume can find out some mixture of character/game/what you're aligned with not in the alignment way.
To me this is like a home run easy to catch lies! The argument "yeah but scum could lie then" like....yes....And then we could catch them in those lies later in the game.

Please explain how you envision the flavor-cop to work in order to be able to get good info from it. Scum have fake-claims and the claims BoomFrog is proposing are not relevant for determining alignment.

Struggling to see what Boomfrog would gain from this claim as scum, but easily seeing the logic as town.

Really? You don't understand why scum!BF would make up a claim that might get the heat off of him? If there are no 2 flavor-cops in the game, that will only be revealed much later and if the claim is true I doubt the 2 cops would come forward to say his claim was true, so we're left in the dark.

[Sabrar]

@moody: would you consider revealing your N1 target? It might help us figuring out possible redirections/roleblocks and I think the only way it backfires if it allows scum a fake-claim (like claiming a Tracker result on you, which would be very suspicious).

[moody7277]

Bop

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

post 1: fluff
post 2: fluff
post 3: asking about terms, happy about game size
post 4: response to Mak about his read of Sab, says they are linked now, previous xkcdmafia experience

I just recognized the older name on rereading! You were in that insane Death Note game where everyone died, right?

post 5: response to BF voting Bop, delayed voting not AI
post 6: reads Bubblez and Mak as town based on their interaction, heury sus for lack of commitment, votes heury, first part of handshake issue
post 7: response to Mak about his previous experience with ahippo
post 8: assessment of mime and ahippo's RVs
post 9: response to Mak about handshake issue
post 10: follow on to post 9

"Getting down to business" phase starts here

post 11: answer to Bessie about voting, responding to heury about not wanting to double up on a RV, serious about linking Sab and Mak, doesn't like ahippo's question to me
post 12: expands dislike of ahippo's question, says so to LG
post 13: reads nearly complete, likes Sabrar's points, doesn't like Mak tunnelling Bubblez
post 14: reads list with ahippo and Mak town, wam and heury scummy
post 15: still doesn't like heury's lack of conviction, deadline looming
post 16: fluff
post 17: fluff
post 18: responding to LG about his Madge read, will take examples of meta from other games, thinks LG's reasoning for voting Fred should be more obvious
post 19: viewed Bubblez vote of Mak as serious, doesn't like the reasoning
post 20: fed up with the handshake issue, feels ahippo still posting after it is townie
post 21: accepts EGW's conclusion about handshake
post 22: unvotes, doesn't like votes on Fred, agrees with Bessie about D1, miller claim to be digested later, asks LG about scummier reads than Fred to vote for, confused by EGW's take on ahippo

Someone who likes D1? Increible!

post 23: responding to Madge about Bubblez, also thinks Bubblez using timing to read heury is weird, but doesn't want to absolve heury because of it
post 24: updated reads list with ahippo Mak BF town, Bubblez wam me scummy based on Fred wagon, votes me
post 25: likes heury's chart
post 26: prefers town reads to unreadables late game, switches vote to Bubblez
post 27: doesn't like votes on ahippo, likes ahippo's frustrated reads list
post 28: not on at deadline

D2
post 29: apology to me for misread, summary of voting immediately before EoD for somi
post 30: annotated version of post 29
post 31: wants to know about heury and EGW's votes on BF
post 32: flavor realization
post 33: explaining flavor
post 34: agrees with heury about how flavor->mechanics

Some of this flaunting of flavor knowledge may be interpreted as pseudo-content

post 35: conclusion that flavor alignment does not correlate with game alignment
post 36: agrees with Sabrar about scum also scumhunting in multiball, more flavor
post 37: concurs with my take on his "My bad" post, asks wam about his conclusion Sabrar killed Bessie
post 38: thinks flavor claims would have merit, ahippo plausible deniability not used, thinks ahippo's target claiming would be helpful
post 39: responses to Santy's entry, trying to explain the joint reads on Bubblez Mak and heury
post 40: votes extension, response to Santy about flavor and kill spec, still open to multiball, ahippo trying not to post TMI
post 41: asking Santy about his question to wam re wam's vote on Fred, says Santy is making too much of it
post 42: flavor stuff
post 43: asks EGW about his solve, likes what Mak said about ahippo's supposed power
post 44: still saying flavor claim is good
post 45: using BF's proposal to read him as town

Some amount of fluff, but a lot of interaction. Defense of ahippo and support of BF's claim idea are the most striking positions. Grade: +0.5

EGW would be next alphabetically, but I think I'll circle back to him. Making the order list will likely be easier once I'm done with reads (think the order is supposed to be scummiest first?), people can decide at the time whether they want to go through with it or not.

[moody7277]

@moody: would you consider revealing your N1 target? It might help us figuring out possible redirections/roleblocks and I think the only way it backfires if it allows scum a fake-claim (like claiming a Tracker result on you, which would be very suspicious).

Would have to get permission from my target first.

[Bop]

Please explain how you envision the flavor-cop to work in order to be able to get good info from it. Scum have fake-claims and the claims BoomFrog is proposing are not relevant for determining alignment.

I assume a flavor cop can potentially tell one of these:

The character (which would also tell us the game)
The game (which would only tell us the game)
The shepard/lord dichotomy (which would only tell us that. This isn't revealed when somebody dies, so it's admittably less likely)

And if somebody is lying about one of these, I think those claims absolutely could be relevant for determining alignment! Say somebody claims a game we find out their character isn't from-say we find out somebody's character who in canon is not aligned with a shepard, but the player said they were! I don't think that's a stretch! Even any differences once somebody is eliminated will give us information all the way to the end here.

Really? You don't understand why scum!BF would make up a claim that might get the heat off of him? If there are no 2 flavor-cops in the game, that will only be revealed much later and if the claim is true I doubt the 2 cops would come forward to say his claim was true, so we're left in the dark.

Here's my thing:

If Boomfrog was making up a cop....why make up two? Does that help that story at all? Does it make it more believable? Does it sow more trust? I don't think it does-so it seems like a really specific detail to throw out to save their skin.

But more to my point, I'll ask this.

Sabrar, if you truly don't think any of those things would indicate alignment, even if you think Boomfrog should still be the day vote, even if it turns out there are no flavor cops and we only find out character and can look up game when somebody flips,what do you think it hurts to do the claiming that is being proposed? Is it still bad for us to get some information to compare to what's revealed at the flip?

[Bop]

Bop
I just recognized the older name on rereading! You were in that insane Death Note game where everyone died, right?

(this is more fluff lol but yes I was in that insane death note game where everyone died. I was on Kira's faction and they were shot in the head day one while the rest of my teammates were nice and reassuring and sweet to the increasingly guilty mole in our team lol)

[Wam]

@bop.for my 2ps worth, I'm fairly certain, boom had someway of teeling who targeted them last night and boom was targeted by 2 flavour cops. None of that means he is town. I had the same power but any target in the last game as scum.

[Wam]

I think not taking dead town legacies into account is what loses most of the games for town. Its not something you just blindly sheep of course, but it always does have weight imo.

Agree with not taking the legacy being a bad idea. But it felt like you were going from town legavy into nk analysis.

I will admit my view is probably coloured by the amount of time you said "xx" didn't make sense as a target or xx was a very bad choice last game when as a scum team we had logic behind it (maybe bad logic)so I dont think we agree at all on NK choices !

https://ramenchef.net/nxf/viewtopic.php?p=85604#p85604

OK this at least makes sense, all of santys work is based on no multiball you can see it under pinning the conclusions etc so depending on the world we're in could be evidence either way.

Did santy ever answer https://ramenchef.net/nxf/viewtopic.php?p=85647#p85647

[boomfrog]

I'm a JOIT and my power N1 was psychic, and I was informed that I was targeted by 2 different flavor cops. Presumably the flavor cops are town roles, I considered that one might be a scum role if a scum team or indy needs to target specific types, but the fact they targeted me feels very townie. Therefore, since flavor cops are town that means scum can be detected in some way by knowing flavor. Therefore, we should have everyone claim their flavor so either:

A) Scum lie and cops can catch them
or
B) Scum tell the truth and there is something significant for town to know to help us solve. Otherwise why bother giving town flavor cop roles?

Therefore, everyone should claim:
Aligned with or not with a Lord of Calamity
From Bersaria or not.
Aligned with or not with a Shepherd

So you're a JOAT (assuming that was just a typo), and your N1 action is restricted to be specifically a psychic on yourself. Am I understanding this correctly?
Since we know that town can be aligned with either Shepherd or Lord of Calamity, and we know that they can come from either Zestiria or Berseria and we know that scum have fake-claims, why do you think the above claims would help us solve? At this point it's full-claim or nothing.

I chose Psychic from among my options, but otherwise yes, your summery is correct.

For starters, if scums fake claim doesn't have exactly the same flavor as their real role now they have to scramble to make something up and have more chance to be caught in a lie. But regardless, these are tools given to town for our advantage. Either Seven+Adum suck at game design, or there is some value to town to know this information. I trust the mods are not wasting people's time with useless powers. Why are you presenting this false dichotomy of full claim or nothing? If you are really this biased against my ideas you need to take a step back and rethink things.

Also, since when do we know that scum have fake claims?

[Wam]

EGW
Town, the analysis is good and I can follow the thought processes.

How can you say this about GW when his analysis is that ahippo is scum but you have ahippo as top town?

Because I agree with most of egw other posts and by the time I did my reads list egw had backed off hippo here

https://ramenchef.net/nxf/viewtopic.php?p=84839#p84839

[boomfrog]

@moody: would you consider revealing your N1 target? It might help us figuring out possible redirections/roleblocks and I think the only way it backfires if it allows scum a fake-claim (like claiming a Tracker result on you, which would be very suspicious).

Why do we need this info now? moody's not going anywhere. I assume he's our stump-in-chief for the rest of the game.

[Bop]

@bop.for my 2ps worth, I'm fairly certain, boom had someway of teeling who targeted them last night and boom was targeted by 2 flavour cops. None of that means he is town. I had the same power but any target in the last game as scum.

This is fair. Even if I believe the claim fair enough that it's not exonerating to have those abilities.

And even fair enough if people think giving both game and lord/shepard is too much info for in public with the risk of scum or indys hunting for specific roles in the flavor, which has come up several times. I personally think the risk is worth the possible reward there.

@moody: would you consider revealing your N1 target? It might help us figuring out possible redirections/roleblocks and I think the only way it backfires if it allows scum a fake-claim (like claiming a Tracker result on you, which would be very suspicious).

Would have to get permission from my target first.

Would it help us to know this? Would it not hurt our current advantage of having a confirmed unkillable town able to get extra information from someone else privately away from prying eyes?

[boomfrog]

EGW
Town, the analysis is good and I can follow the thought processes.

How can you say this about GW when his analysis is that ahippo is scum but you have ahippo as top town?

Because I agree with most of egw other posts and by the time I did my reads list egw had backed off hippo here

https://ramenchef.net/nxf/viewtopic.php?p=84839#p84839

He backed off of trying to get ahippo yeeted but clearly still thinks ahippo is scum. How can you say you agree with his logic when a big chunk of it is completely flawed? And even if you mistook that post as him changing his scum read of ahippo, did his initial thought process make sense? His ahippo push never made sense. So why say you can follow his thought process?

[Bop]

Since we know that town can be aligned with either Shepherd or Lord of Calamity, and we know that they can come from either Zestiria or Berseria and we know that scum have fake-claims, why do you think the above claims would help us solve? At this point it's full-claim or nothing.

Also, since when do we know that scum have fake claims?

I've been trying to look up terms/concepts first so I'm not always asking but what exactly is "having" a fake claim?