Tales of Desolation mafia Day 2

[LaserGuy]

Claiming your own role early in the game isn't necessarily alignment indicative (personally, I tend to consider unprompted claims to be much more likely Town than not)

In that case, I have a PR!

Doesn't count if it is prompted.

Setup spec, 14 players with one "player" secretly being an additional moderator with no win condition and with 2-shot mod kills, can't both be used against the same faction twice. 9-3-2, town mafia mafia.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret this. You think there are two players with no wincon at all?

Since everyone is scum until proven innocent, here is my reads list:

Scum (least to most)
heuristically_alone
ahippo
Freddino
Makhaira
Bessie
TehBubblez
Sabrar
Laserguy
Wam
Bop
Moody7277
JC_DADDY25
EGW
Boomfrog

Why is BoomFrog at the bottom?

[LaserGuy]

random side note how did we not get santy to join this game I feel like they wouldve been a perfect addition if we have to lose adum and seven to modding

I may have broken his spirit last game

[LaserGuy]

@sab @boom @laser

do you think scum!bessie is less likely to want to antagonize me (not saying unjustifiably) relative to town!bessie out of fear of possible tunnel from me given my history of kind of naturally scumreading her slot?

bessie does not care about antagonizing people regardless of alignment IMHO. She is very principled and follows whatever leads make sense.

[LaserGuy]

Town
ahippo
Mak
Sabrar
Bubbles
Madge
BoomFrog
moody
JC
Bop
EGW <------- Null Line
Wam
heury
bessie
Fred
Scum

Don't have super strong reasons for any of the below EGW group being mafia at this point, just haven't found enough evidence to convince me that they're Town.

Vote: Fred

[boomfrog]

I had forgotten about but will now consider the "low effort" disclaimer before game. I've had the same in the past and find it frustrating when I get scum read for for it. But I do have concerns.

@Sabrar: My originally vote was because LG hasn't brought any actually pro-town unique insights to the game yet. He's generally insightful and notice things others (or at least myself) miss. Some of this could be explained by him being on less and having less chance to be the first on the scene for something interesting happening. We'll see if his madge take is satisfying or not.

Yes, bessie, you'd suffocate.

Work was mad today, I really should have stayed as a replacement. Right now I have two employees and on Monday I'll have three. I've got to set a good example by not being on the forum!!!

I'll do a proper post tomorrow, unless I don't. D1 is so performative and I'm pretty convinced that any ability to read this is well beyond me.

@Bessie have I ever made a good read, myself? an actual read, not like, mechanics analysis. I don't recall it ever happening, but you somehow have a photographic memory of 10+ years of mafia stuff (I'm another who started on xkcdia in 2012, hi)

Hmm... I think madge is Town.

Please elaborate on what is townie about her post. Also, what was your goal in not just explaining the read?

Setup spec, 14 players with one "player" secretly being an additional moderator with no win condition and with 2-shot mod kills, can't both be used against the same faction twice. 9-3-2, town mafia mafia.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret this. You think there are two players with no wincon at all?

Can you describe your mental state when you made this post? And explain your thought process as you remember it?

Town
ahippo
Mak
Sabrar
Bubbles
Madge
BoomFrog
moody
JC
Bop
EGW <------- Null Line
Wam
heury
bessie
Fred
Scum

Don't have super strong reasons for any of the below EGW group being mafia at this point, just haven't found enough evidence to convince me that they're Town.

Vote: Fred

Why is Bop so low?

[boomfrog]

Instead of trying to be clever by alluding to your role and/or alignment with a cleverly chosen profile pic when 13 of us are flavor blind anyway, how about giving us your thoughts on the game so far?

If this is true, I would lean freddino towards less scummy

Can you explain this thought process in more detail please?

Going back to boomfrog's vote, It feels really weird for boomfrog to be so vocal so early about a serious read. >:/

Why is that?

If memory serves, At least in games I played with you, you haven't given reads in early stages of D1

I'm actually usually one of the first people to give a serious vote. I like to get real takes started as soon as possible.

[boomfrog]

@sab @boom @laser

do you think scum!bessie is less likely to want to antagonize me (not saying unjustifiably) relative to town!bessie out of fear of possible tunnel from me given my history of kind of naturally scumreading her slot?

Actually yes. Town!bessie is not afraid to lock horns with anyone; scum!bessie is somewhat self conscious but is aware town!bessie isn't so tries to play that way, but I think there is a slight difference. Did she do something to avoid conflict with you this game?

[AdumbroDeus]

This is @everyone but I'm pinging Fred and Sabrar because it was about Fred's post and Sabrar brought up the rules issue.

Ok, per Bessie's question, I do think there's merit in the multiball theory. In my role PM, it says "You are not aligned with a(n) [X]. You are aligned with a(n) [Y].
This is entirely separate to the section with my role and alignment. Weirdly, one is capitalized as a proper noun, and the other is not.

I'm pretty sure this violates rule 5, please don't do that.

Talked with Seven, and our ruling is as follows.

That format is standardized and presented in the sample role PM so we don't consider it a violation of rule 5.

As to Lord of Calamity and Shepard being capitalized in role PMs, they're phrases found throughout the lore and capitalization is to convey they're proper names or roles, so it's content info rather than meta and too commonly present to function as a direct quote, unless we were to consider using the name from the role PM when character claiming a direct quote. On the other hand if you had the sample role PM as your role and quoted this to justify your role:

But while you were a drake you were extremely destructive so you get destructive powers!

it would be a violation of rule 5, and you would have to paraphrase it. Hope the example clarifies it.

That said, any non-capitalized uses of "Shepard" and "Lord of Calamity" are typographical errors on specifically my part.

[AdumbroDeus]

I'll add, I'm thankful it wasn't a rule violation this time due to genericness and formatting that was accessible to all players.

However I would suggest for the future if anything could potentially be an issue but if anything runs close to potentially using metadata or quoting mod communications please run it past us. In general but specifically @Fredd.

[boomfrog]

I am generally concerned that xkcdians are not used to having to get to a majority vote and we are going to have a mad scramble by deadline, especially with a 15 man game.

I'll remind everyone who's not voting, Especially: Freddino18, JC_DADDY25, heuristically_alone, Madge, ahippo. A literally random vote is better than not voting. Every townie vote dilutes the power mafia have. If you are going to random vote, might as well start now. Like they say in Chicago, "Vote early, vote often!"

Additionally, since "everyone" is in agreement that Mak is a paragon of transparently townieness, I propose that Mak give us his bottom 4 and we consolidate our votes among those 4 now. Also, he can change his bottom 4 later if he wants to. This likely give town more power and will help us get meaningful numbers of votes on people. Right now we have a max of 2, the threshold is 8.

(Mak don't take this as me trying to pocket you. Scum!boomfrog would make this same post)

[Sabrar]

Two quick thoughts I have been pondering.

1. I think the current meta of accepting an early, unprompted claim as Town is still applicable, however I'm pretty sure that sooner or later it will backfire if people don't adjust, as there will come a courageous scum who decides to risk and exploits it. You have to take into account context and personality as well (if known). In this case there was a natural progression from ahippo's first inquiry, which I have immediately suspected to be PR-related because it was just too wolfy to be actual wolf.

2. Somewhat related to that, I dislike rigid rules that are taken as universal truths. I can understand the immediate reaction of 'rolefish = scum' but that is a shortsighted view that doesn't really tries to understand where the question is coming from. Similarly 'why me, fry me' is also questionable as I believe a natural reaction from a certain type of player is righteous indignation at being suspected.

[Makhaira]

@sab @boom @laser

do you think scum!bessie is less likely to want to antagonize me (not saying unjustifiably) relative to town!bessie out of fear of possible tunnel from me given my history of kind of naturally scumreading her slot?

Actually yes. Town!bessie is not afraid to lock horns with anyone; scum!bessie is somewhat self conscious but is aware town!bessie isn't so tries to play that way, but I think there is a slight difference. Did she do something to avoid conflict with you this game?

no, the opposite, see below

An elim I spearheaded because I had a strong scumread on a slot that was more gut read than my ego wanted to admit and I got into big thunderdomes with my target and thought I had them dead to rights as scum and I really wanted the dopamine hit of "winning" the 1v1 with them flipping scum

Wow this is a whole new side of you that I have never seen before! [/sarcasm]

I was gauging whether yall thought scum!bessie would avoid throwing pot shots at me like this to avoid drawing my attention. I appreciate all yalls input

[Makhaira]

Fair point Sab re: why me fry me but bubblez reaction to my vote was to OMGUS vote me and then completely disappear. Slot hasnt done anything since. I think this slot flips red, Im very serious

If people want to sheep me it should be on this slot. I can work on developing a bottom four but I dont really have a clear idea yet and I dont think giving 4 options actually helps to consolidate votes

I really dont care if people sheep me or not, we just need more slots voting period so we can see where consensus is forming

Giddy up folks lets start putting chips down

[LaserGuy]

Yes, bessie, you'd suffocate.

Work was mad today, I really should have stayed as a replacement. Right now I have two employees and on Monday I'll have three. I've got to set a good example by not being on the forum!!!

I'll do a proper post tomorrow, unless I don't. D1 is so performative and I'm pretty convinced that any ability to read this is well beyond me.

@Bessie have I ever made a good read, myself? an actual read, not like, mechanics analysis. I don't recall it ever happening, but you somehow have a photographic memory of 10+ years of mafia stuff (I'm another who started on xkcdia in 2012, hi)

Hmm... I think madge is Town.

Please elaborate on what is townie about her post. Also, what was your goal in not just explaining the read?

This was scum madge on page 2 of our last game. Here's another post on page 4. She is way more invested in making reads and being engaged as scum, and I think the fact that she isn't thinking that she can make reads at this point I think really points to Town!madge. I hadn't reviewed that game before I made that post as was just going on memory; I'd probably put her a bit higher on in my reads than my initial placement.

I often don't bother explaining my reads until I post my full list unless somebody asks about it. It's more helpful to see who is engaged.

Setup spec, 14 players with one "player" secretly being an additional moderator with no win condition and with 2-shot mod kills, can't both be used against the same faction twice. 9-3-2, town mafia mafia.

I'm not quite sure how to interpret this. You think there are two players with no wincon at all?

Can you describe your mental state when you made this post? And explain your thought process as you remember it?

I thought it was weird and wanted to try to engage with heury. I don't think I put much more thought into it beyond that.

Town
ahippo
Mak
Sabrar
Bubbles
Madge
BoomFrog
moody
JC
Bop
EGW <------- Null Line
Wam
heury
bessie
Fred
Scum

Don't have super strong reasons for any of the below EGW group being mafia at this point, just haven't found enough evidence to convince me that they're Town.

Vote: Fred

Why is Bop so low?

I haven't seen anything that's clearly towntelling for Bop and based on their posting I think they are experienced enough that I feel caution is warranted before just taking their play as townie on tone.

[Bop]

Still working on my where everyone sits for me list and I'm almost done but this resonated w me

Two quick thoughts I have been pondering.

1. I think the current meta of accepting an early, unprompted claim as Town is still applicable, however I'm pretty sure that sooner or later it will backfire if people don't adjust, as there will come a courageous scum who decides to risk and exploits it. You have to take into account context and personality as well (if known). In this case there was a natural progression from ahippo's first inquiry, which I have immediately suspected to be PR-related because it was just too wolfy to be actual wolf.

2. Somewhat related to that, I dislike rigid rules that are taken as universal truths. I can understand the immediate reaction of 'rolefish = scum' but that is a shortsighted view that doesn't really tries to understand where the question is coming from. Similarly 'why me, fry me' is also questionable as I believe a natural reaction from a certain type of player is righteous indignation at being suspected.

Big agree on both of these. Once something becomes "the rule" it can be an easy way in for a lot of bad situations. Scum using it to their advantage to push votes on people who don't know, or in the case of #1 being able to craft claims specifically using it. (That said I in no way think ahippo is exploiting that. Ahippo is the most obvious town for me until further, drastic, I-will-be-telling-people-about-that-gambit-for-years-if-it-was-a-scum-play notice)

And to Mak, a "why me fry me" for the first two pages and first couple of posts is wild to me. Esp with your initial vote's reasoning written in a very "term heavy" way I can imagine somebody who hasn't played with these players asking for clarification, defensively or not. Absolutely doesn't clear Bubblez for me either and would love to see more but I don't know that it's this is my main crusade worthy.

[heuristically_alone]

I am generally concerned that xkcdians are not used to having to get to a majority vote and we are going to have a mad scramble by deadline, especially with a 15 man game.

I'll remind everyone who's not voting, Especially: Freddino18, JC_DADDY25, heuristically_alone, Madge, ahippo. A literally random vote is better than not voting. Every townie vote dilutes the power mafia have. If you are going to random vote, might as well start now. Like they say in Chicago, "Vote early, vote often!"

Additionally, since "everyone" is in agreement that Mak is a paragon of transparently townieness, I propose that Mak give us his bottom 4 and we consolidate our votes among those 4 now. Also, he can change his bottom 4 later if he wants to. This likely give town more power and will help us get meaningful numbers of votes on people. Right now we have a max of 2, the threshold is 8.

(Mak don't take this as me trying to pocket you. Scum!boomfrog would make this same post)

Hmm BoomFrog is really concerned with looking like he's pocketing that he had to clarify.

Vote: BoomFrog

Vote early, vote often!

Instead of trying to be clever by alluding to your role and/or alignment with a cleverly chosen profile pic when 13 of us are flavor blind anyway, how about giving us your thoughts on the game so far?

If this is true, I would lean freddino towards less scummy

Can you explain this thought process in more detail please?

I only see Fred as town alluding to his role and changing his profile pic

Town
ahippo
Mak
Sabrar
Bubbles
Madge
BoomFrog
moody
JC
Bop
EGW <------- Null Line
Wam
heury
bessie
Fred
Scum

Don't have super strong reasons for any of the below EGW group being mafia at this point, just haven't found enough evidence to convince me that they're Town.

Vote: Fred

I disagree with so much of your list. Only valid options are you are scum or I'm a better mafia player than you.

Scum (least to most)
heuristically_alone
ahippo
Freddino
Makhaira
Bessie
TehBubblez
Sabrar
Laserguy
Wam
Bop
Moody7277
JC_DADDY25
EGW
Boomfrog

Why is BoomFrog at the bottom?

BoomFrog is the only one I've gotten a ping. Waiting on Bessie to see if she pulls up game knowledge to prove me wrong.

vote huery

Like what even is thay egw at bottom of the list and the even vaguer

I still haven't forgiven EGW for having me yeeted on mafia universe a couple years ago when they were scum.

The injustice of this accusation! You're clearly delusional or mislead. I demand you take that vote back!

Ok, per Bessie's question, I do think there's merit in the multiball theory. In my role PM, it says "You are not aligned with a(n) [X]. You are aligned with a(n) [Y].
This is entirely separate to the section with my role and alignment. Weirdly, one is capitalized as a proper noun, and the other is not.

If it's referring to what I think it's referring to, mod said that it's flavor to do with the Tales game and not the Mafia game. Your win condition is the one that matters.
EBWOP: And looks like mod confirmed that fact in thread.

[EGW]

I know pretty much nobody here soooooo I'll vote closer to deadline lol

This doesn't seem helpful. Would you mind attaching your vote to mine? Voting Mak here is not doing you any favors. Do you have any other thoughts at the moment?

EGW if you're not town im taking it as a personal affront to our friendship

I'm town brother, I was just out of town until now. I have returned home.

Vote: EGW No point in delaying our inevitable conflict.

You ruined my EGW doesn't get voted streak already.

Leaning toward agreement with Mak on his opinion of ahippo being town. Also ahippo claiming this early is a point in favor of bessie's theory of claiming unless absolutely necessary being evil.

If this is the case, you should move your vote, and to someone you feel is suspect. Any thoughts on that so far?

But this reply is giving me a reason to stay, Why me? = Fry me

More votes on bubbles please!

Good reason for a compromise elim, but otherwise I don't think it's the best chance at scum. Just unhelpful. You mention being serious feeling Bubble's flips scum here. Elaborate on why this is.

[EGW]

Nice try FBI youll never get my RVS strategies out of me!

Give the new guy a bone. Explain it to him, his norm seems to be waiting out D1 it seems.

And tbh, the longer I think of it, heuristically_alone's early finger of suspicion is almost more suspicious to me than any of the voting-casting aspersions with less attachment than a vote but more oomph than musing.

Vote: heuristically_alone

Can you elaborate on why it's more suspicious?

I still haven't forgiven EGW for having me yeeted on mafia universe a couple years ago when they were scum.

You are confusing me with someone else. I have never played as EGW on Mafia Universe, nor have I have been scum on there for many years, nor have I yeeted you on that site, at all. Can you explain your thought process here, and then tell me how this changes your thoughts in-game.

Hippo, how did bop know that you interpreted the RVS vote on you as a handshake/high five before you posted to say thats how you interpreted it

I don't interpret it that way. To me I initially believed that Hippo was voting Moody in jest. So Bop's point of view on this makes sense. Yet, to me it seems like Hippo adapted his response with Bop's wording as he was responding. Meaning, Hippo was struggling to come up with the words himself. I find that more likely.

Honestly, I'm doing a lot of catchup on what the vibes are like. I really don't like being cagey and dodging direct questions. Is it suspicious to claim a role D1? Is it considered, like, rude? Or bad play? I mean if it is bad play, I could just own up to being a bad player.

Have you done this before in previous games off-site? Can you link your most recent town and scum game?

[madge]

My condolences to Sabrar

-----

lol i told myself, "i'm working from home tomrorow so i can sneak a post in". the best laid plans of mice and men.

i'm busy all day today so i've realised that i'm going to have to squeak a post out before i leave for work while i eat my breakfast. here we are. shooting from the hip.

today's my last workday without a brand new graduate to hold the hand of, and my evenings are packed, so I'm just gonna be VLA until i show up on day 6 with a full mechanics-based solve. people who haven't played with me before, that's what you'll love about me

speaking of things to love about me: after last game, I am REFUSING to read or post in the final hour before deadline. I will make my post and then not look at the game. This is for my own damn mental health. I am posting about it now when there's no scramble and you can all READ THIS and decide that this is something you're going to have to work around.

I'll do a proper post tomorrow, unless I don't. D1 is so performative and I'm pretty convinced that any ability to read this is well beyond me.

@Bessie have I ever made a good read, myself? an actual read, not like, mechanics analysis. I don't recall it ever happening, but you somehow have a photographic memory of 10+ years of mafia stuff (I'm another who started on xkcdia in 2012, hi)

I know I'm not bessie! But we always go through this madge your much better at this game than you ever give yourself credit for!

Lol noes, you and bessie said the same damn thing, and I agree, I'm prob better than I give myself credit for, but the thing is? I SUCK AT READS. I suck at all we have to work with on D1. People think that because I can solve a game based on mechanics that i can read people. I can't, they're different skills. I was COMPLETELY CONVINCED that Fred was vengeful in the last game I played, lol.

Oh, and it's D1 so let's give us something to talk about: I'm a miller.

MADGE'S FOOTNOTES SHE KEEPS ON EVERY POST AND TRIES TO UPDATE:

reads:
- everyone is neutral except ahippo who is town

claims:
- ahippo is a 2-shot motivator
- madge is a miller
- therefore, there is some sort of investigative role

setup spec:
- one big scumteam or two small scumteams, and at least one indie

[Makhaira]

Good reason for a compromise elim, but otherwise I don't think it's the best chance at scum. Just unhelpful. You mention being serious feeling Bubble's flips scum here. Elaborate on why this is.

I legitimately believe in the why me = fry me tell. Its a very self prez/scum mindset to just ask "why me" when someone targets them. If anything someone taking a stance against you should help you read the slot, a town player should relish the interaction and the discussion that will follow from someone taking a stance on one's slot. Obviously it isnt foolproof but I do think there is merit to it being a good rule of thumb scumtell. Its day one and frankly its the scummiest play ive seen thus far from any slot

This is compounded by the reaction going from just "why me" to doubling down and then OMGUS voting me. Sounds like bubblez didnt actually care at all "why" I voted for them, they just dont like the fact that Im voting for them period. Thats a scumtell imo. Also the slot has done nothing since

Why me fry me can probably be argued to be nothing more than an arbitrary schelling point and though I can see the argument I think its slightly better than that and I legit think the slot is worth continuing to pressure. Plus arbitrary schelling points, if we assume this uncharitable characterization, are kind of part and parcel to how D1s are normally played

claims:
- ahippo is a 2-shot motivator
- madge is a miller
- therefore, there is some sort of investigative role

is this a real claim?

Also, I understand not wanting to deal with clown car EOD scramble but if that's the approach you are taking youd better lay your vote down by that cutoff point and provide explicit reasoning or I will start chainsawwing you ruthlessly next phase because otherwise this is the most convenient way for scum to opt out of high pressure situations which are often the most probative. You will need to compensate for this elsewhere in your play IMO

[Makhaira]

More simply put I do think asking "why me" is a common scum reaction to being "caught for the wrong reasons"

[EGW]

Mak, what's your thoughts of my interpretation of Hippo v Bop interaction.

[Makhaira]

At work was just responding to what I was pinged on ill take a look tonight

[EGW]

Sounds good. I'm eating and will be watching my friend play the new Tales game (what a coincidence), but I will be around later as well.

[madge]

Yes, millar claim is real

I'll definitely have a vote by E-1h but don't expect me to have good justification on D1. I'll do my best and vote in good faith.

I don't give a rats whether it makes me look scummy or not. This will be my policy on all future games.

Also: how about instead of putting it on me to be available to vote during the last hour, let's make the decision and complete the vote before then? As scum last game I was thrilled that we had the opportunity to put our finger on the scale during times when so many peoples' votes were frozen (due to sleeping patterns/etc). It's D1, we don't have night results, we have very few claims, let's make a decision before the eleventh hour. Then you can ask me all the questions and get all the justification you want for my position BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE MORE THAN AN HOUR AND NOT BE UNDER PRESSURE.

That said you should know that D1 I don't have strong reads or preferences because there is nothing to go on. I'll pick a side at the end but I'm not going to form the sides.

MADGE'S FOOTNOTES SHE KEEPS ON EVERY POST AND TRIES TO UPDATE:

reads:
- everyone is neutral except ahippo who is town (scum never does that claim lol, and it's not a scummy role, and can be proven)

claims:
- ahippo is a 2-shot motivator
- madge is a miller
- therefore, there is some sort of investigative role

setup spec:
- one big scumteam or two small scumteams, and at least one indie