Halloween Mafia 2021 - The Party Trap - Day 7

[Seven]

Ok finished reading through Day 1

Aside:

Will the flavor of the two separate parties take form in the setup of the game?

This was in heury's second post, and it feels forced, as if it's coming from someone who knows more than the average about the setup. Spotted it whilst reading through his other posts.

I am 70% sure heury was mimicking his play in the aforementioned WWZ game though I'm not sure why. His play here is almost identical except for some nuggets of town tells. He did this same thing there: https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... post-84148

And also did the early town read thing as he did with you here: https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... post-84149

Both of these things ended up being a part of why he was eliminated D1.

Ok I see what you’re saying about the Pizzaz group but I will be watching for an interesting Madge mechanic.

Have you seen something like this before (and if so what)?

I do agree with bessie that the setup makes bussing unlikely anyway.

Why so?

---Note to come back to later: There are three things that link Laser as a partner to mafia!Pat
---Note, come back to this: long and I TR jim so skipping for now: viewtopic.php?p=7540#p7540

I feel like I have this discussion every single game and I'm kinda surprised you don't remember me saying the same thing in WWZ:
It's D1 and I simply don't care if my scumreads make sense as a team or not.
Maybe I should put it in my sig

Correction, you have this discussion every single scum game. Also, how is it that you don't think scum!Heury would be cheeky but you have him at the bottom of your reads?

Revised List

Keep:
Jim
bessie
Boom
Sniper
Wam

Need to mull on
Laser - look at heavily upon Patzer mafia, seems townie overall though
Suzaku - no tells either way, but not mafia considering the kill
Moody - hard to get past the boom unvote on page 1, but I liked his mega read list near the end of day
somi - inconsistent

Elim:
Patzer

Vote: somitomi

Back later

(voting my second suspect for reasons)

[somitomi]

I don't really see why mafia would willingly revive town-heury. Just pushes them back to square one and potentially undoes the successful miselim.

If heury is town and eliminated again today, then you have your answer.
Neutral but that quote is slightly suspicious.

See response to Jimbob below.

Hi guys, as YOLO stated, my name is Zen.

Hey, thanks for jumping in.

This discussion was already had between two other players earlier in the thread - see somitomi versus moody. By rezzing town, and then town voting them off again, mafia end up potentially gaining 2 NKs without any town gain (aside from the flip). If Mafia have an unlimited rez action, this doesn't feel like a waste to me.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, but if mafia left town-Heury for dead, there would be one less town alive right now and another opportunity to miselim today (because we don't get the flip either way). And then we'd go into D3 with four dead and possibly zero flips. I'm not sure if engineering a situation in which there's a flip as soon as possible is really worthwile for mafia, even if they have an unlimited resurrect (which feels pretty OP to me).

I'm having trouble buying that you thought this was serious?

Maybe it's been a while, but I recall Jimbob being a pretty straightforward kind of person, so it never crossed my mind that it wasn't.

Correction, you have this discussion every single scum game.

I'm pretty sure I had this discussion as town before, but I don't have bessie's archivist mind to tell you which one it was.

Also, how is it that you don't think scum!Heury would be cheeky but you have him at the bottom of your reads?

I never said he wouldn't be cheeky at all, just not that cheeky. But my expectations aren't exactly a platinum prototype you can reliably measure against, so repeatedly ignoring my questions and having wishy-washy reads was more than enough for the sum to be negative.

[Seven]

Public service comment to The Snide Sniper and patzer: do not put someone at L-1 (i.e. 1 vote off hammer), unless there's a risk of a tie, as it a) risks mistakes like patzer's apparent mistaken hammer, and b) reduces the risk of scum deliberately hammering to cut short the day. If you wish to express internet without placing a vote, and there's no strong need for the vote, just state who you'd vote for explicitly.

I don't think patzer's hammer was deliberate for two reasons. Firstly, the timestamps of their and TSS's post are the same, so ninja is quite plausible. Secondly, if it had been deliberate, it would be strictly against the rules for him to make his follow-up post confirming the hammer, I believe (actually, some would even argue that her follow-up post had more than was reasonable for a post-hammer post). That being said, patzer has played before, so should know that L-1 is a dodgy point to put us in when there's no strong need, so some scum points there.

I'd like to make a counter-public announcement and say that this is only an opinion. I disagree with this entirely and think it is alright to put someone at L-1 so long as you announce it.

@BoomFrog - don't forget the possibility that cult targeted mafia and mafia are cult immune (since nothing else is practical).

This would make the cultist and investigative which seems a bit too strong, so I think they maybe die instead if they target mafia.

--lol La Sergei---

Somitomi answered your question (he has also since answered your follow-up). My question was for you. I'm trying to understand your perspective. But your evading my question has been noted.

Somi hadn’t answered my follow-up question at the time I made that post. Your attempt at misrepresenting this has been noted.

Oh god, you two.

Well, that wasn’t what I expected.
The obvious question now is who resurrected Heury?
Hypothesis 1: Heury is town. Who would have brought him back? No reason for anyone from town to do so. If we’ve got a resurrectionist surely they’d go for Suzaku absent any more information given our qualms about Heury.
Hypothesis 2: Heury is mafia. This can easily be explained by the mafia having a resurrection ability and bringing him back.
Hypothesis 3: Heury is cult. This is an intriguing one, as given we’ve got a halloween theme it would kind of make sense for there to be zombies in which case the cult could easily be the ones with resurrection power and able to bring back the dead while converting them to cultists. Of course this would kind of doom the cult once we notice what’s happening, but it’s a possibility. (The possibility of Heury originally being cult with the cult happening to have resurrection ability is also there but makes a bit less sense imo)

It doesn't seem like you're being very generous here. There's several town possibilities.

Hypothesis 4: Mafia revived Heury for another miselim and free night kill.

Hypothesis 5: Town brought Heury back to life so he could be flipped.

Hypothesis 6: Heury was autoresurrected from his role.

The 6th is correct. I am a Phoenix who revives the first time being killed off.

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Hmm, I wonder what the flavor would be for resurrecting someone who was nightkilled. Something along the lines of "I'll pay you double to come back", maybe?

Is fluff purely fluff, or is there the potential for hidden clues within it?

Only bold text is guaranteed to be honest, straightforward, relevant and true.

This doesn't actually answer the question. Could the flavor have hidden clues within it?

3) A town player deliberately resurrected heury. If so why??

Could be that they wanted flip results, but this still isn't very likely.

As promised, my heurivote explanation:

Kinda sucks when the number one reason you're being scum read is because you're trying to share your honest opinion.

This overly defensive, moreso than a townie would likely be, although I'm not too familiar with the meta.

I'm currently undecided of Boomfrog is scum taking advantage of my slightly scummy appearance right now, or if this is Boomfrog who thinks they laid a trap and actually caught a scum. Thinking more about it, the latter seems more likely.

Kinda sucks when the number one reason you're being scum read is because you're trying to share your honest opinion.

I'm not quite sure, but these posts seems to be trying to insinuate that he's town without actually saying it, which seems quite scummy.

Why?

This is funny coming from you. Answer, because I only vote for people I think are scum.

Seems needlessly aggressive.

Everything somitomi has said so far is making me read town on him.

You should read his last game. He was mafia and everyone was town reading him out the get go. So I am wary of his town tone right now.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, he seems to be saying "somitomi looks like town, therefore he is scum", which just sounds like marinating.

It's funny because these are actually all of Heury's town nuggets.

I don’t agree. Your defense of LaserGuy has been noted.

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Is this not typical bessie to you?

@moody probably a good suggestion.

at what point will huery be replaced if any?

Thinking about this more who would want to replace into that slot now!

I'm mostly caught up but I'm skimming page 10 and 11 for now as my brain is no longer taking info in.

I am hereby going to do a bit of game mechanic analysis. The sensible initial distribution others have mentioned would be 6 town, 2 mafia, 1 cult, 1 survivor. We've lost a town member; it's presumably 5-2-1-1 now unless one bears in mind the possibility of resurrection with conversion...
If mafia had conversion ability it'd be 4-3-1-1 now had Heury originally been town (if he'd originally been mafia they'd have resurrected Suzaku instead). This is too overpowered. Unbalanced dynamic; I'm ruling this option out.

If it's a cult with conversion-with-resurrection ability, it'd likely be 4-2-2-1 now, unless Heury was initially mafia in which case it would be 5-1-2-1 (or survivor in which case 5-2-2-0). This isn't too unbalanced although the number of resurrections would have to be limited to make it fair. Possibility.

Town with resurrection ability can safely be ruled out unless there's a member of town who can both resurrect and determine alignment, but that seems unlikely.

There were 11 players to start.

[Seven]

So let's see,

-Suzaku and me are confirmed non-cultists due to the 1 cult member being alive at day start.

-Suzaku is unlikely mafia due to being the night kill, but could still be and have an ability similar to mine. In addition to being revived the day after being killed, I could also choose to self-annihilate if I hadn't been killed by Day 3.

-Cultist should be assumed to not be able to recruit mafia. I'd speculate that cultist dies or experiences some other punishment for attempting to recruit mafia.

-The Facebook posts don't contain any game-relevant information and people shouldn't look for info there. I agree with bessie, however, that the italicized X members are in the pazazz group is probably relevant.

-There are probably several ways for people to be resurrected this game. It's a bit wacky to me that everyone is surprised-pikachu-face about Heury being resurrected in a game centered around resurrection. Based on Jimbob correctly identifying my role, I'd speculate there are other phoenixes/phoenix-like roles out there in addition to mine. I also suspect there is a necromancer, given the Halloween theme. And mafia has at least one way to be resurrected, otherwise we'd be able to deduce that someone is town based on their potential to be revived.

-I was thinking that the cultist might be necromancer specific, i.e. they recruit the dead, but that would be too easy for town to catch onto given the public knowledge of how many cult members there are.

-I assume cult loses when the cult leader is eliminated because otherwise lord help us.

[madge]

Votals:
Patzer (2) - bessie, jimbob
Seven (2) - moody, patzer
Somitomi (1) - Seven

If there is no change in the votals, Patzer will be eliminated per the tie rules.

With 10 alive, it's 6 votes to eliminate.

Dusk starts in about 2 days, 9 hours.

[boomfrog]

Yay! Seven is here. How much for a hair cut?

This fine pretty lady is spitting 100% straight truth, except that role is made up, which isn't a great move when you're already on the brink.

But we should still keep her as a valuable town asset anyway.

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

@moody: no quid pro quo this time. Sorry.

@jimbob: I'll give a thoughtful answer any Bessie's alignment later when I've got more time. Hopefully toDay. But gut is townie lean.

[patzer]

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

[The Snide Sniper]

This fine pretty lady is spitting 100% straight truth, except that role is made up, which isn't a great move when you're already on the brink.

I read "phoenix" as a role attribute, not an actual role. That said, @Seven, can we get a few more details on your role? Why do you have an auto-resurrection ability?

[The Snide Sniper]

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

It looks like the cult's flavor was discussed on page 5, though to my knowledge it hasn't been confirmed by a mod yet.

[boomfrog]

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

How did you find that reference so easily?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

It looks like the cult's flavor was discussed on page 5, though to my knowledge it hasn't been confirmed by a mod yet.

[bessie]

Daily catch up post.

This is an odd question as it seems patently obvious that non-town would not want to resurrect a member of town, unless they’re literally trying to lose. Jimbob’s confusion about this is... odd.

I already covered this with somitomi. Why wouldn’t mafia want to resurrect a distraction and waste a day?

For starters jimbob has noticeably neglected to mention any possibility of a scum team of me and heury (presumably realizing its unlikeliness)

I am strongly suspicious of these “Look At Me I’m So Townie” type statements.

and still puts as the two most scum-leaning players- if the two scummiest players on the list are two you cannot imagine on a team, that should be a sign something’s wrong, and yet jimbob ignores this elephant in the room.

As somitomi and I have been discussing, you can read two players as scummy independent of each other. As you yourself say later in the same post:

One thing I will say is that jimbob was anti-heury enough on D1 that they were probably not on the same scum team on D1, but there are plenty of other options involving them both being scum. I don’t want to say for sure but this one post is making me much more suspicious.

bessie: woof-grr list with jimbob LG on top, huery at bottom. 4th vote on heury. No claims for D2. late D1 reads post moot upon hammer. questions Snide about heury read. comparison of jimbob & Suzaku reading her, flavor hypothesis seems blown up, doesn't like LG trying to answer for somi. Sentiment list, scum only huntables currently, bucks the heury wagon by voting patzer.

Content is okay, pressure on patzer is good, but some of the lack of depth is a little worrying. +2

Explain. How do I lack depth?

patzer: superficial guess at heury rez, placefiller TS list, responses to jimbob re her cases, partial reads distracted by technical issues, "confused" by jimbob's pressure, slightly into OMGUS territory.

Definitely a bit of crackage in this last post under jimbob's poking. Cynical view is actually of two minds here: either it's newbie scum coming unraveled or scum!jimbob playing break the newbie and doing a bang up job. Right now she's at -2.

To start with, patzer’s not a newbie. She’s not even new to xkcd mafia. She gave her history in her first post .

Interestingly, you have played with her before.
Secret Santa 2015
Smalltown Werewolf PYP



Thank you Seven for replacing.

The cult starts at one member but recruits at night instead of eliminating someone. If the original member dies the cult usually loses the ability to recruit, although that can vary. If you are recruited your win condition changes to align with the cult, so a D1 townie might be a D2 cultist.

@anyone else who has played with a cult on xkcd before, is this traditionally how they've worked?

Cults were very unpopular on xkcd and considered bastard, and we rarely had any. But yes, that is how it would work with a large enough game. For a small game like this, I think perhaps the cult can’t recruit every night. Which would balance a mafia that couldn’t kill every night. Hmmmmm.....

IIRC, there were cults in two of Djehutynakht’s Halloween games.

This question is coming from a town mindset..

Please explain your reasoning because I do not agree.

Can you explain why you disagree?

Already done:

Please explain your reasoning because I do not agree.

Notice I haven't made a read on Jimbob. But it does have a lot of we we we in it, referring to town. At the very least Jimbob is attempting to appear as having a town mindset as this is what the town mindset should be, is it not?

Jimbob says “we” two times in that entire post. And why do you not think this could be a mafia mindset, since the “they” is a third party role?

I am hereby going to do a bit of game mechanic analysis. The sensible initial distribution others have mentioned would be 6 town, 2 mafia, 1 cult, 1 survivor. We've lost a town member; it's presumably 5-2-1-1 now unless one bears in mind the possibility of resurrection with conversion...
If mafia had conversion ability it'd be 4-3-1-1 now had Heury originally been town (if he'd originally been mafia they'd have resurrected Suzaku instead). This is too overpowered. Unbalanced dynamic; I'm ruling this option out.

If it's a cult with conversion-with-resurrection ability, it'd likely be 4-2-2-1 now, unless Heury was initially mafia in which case it would be 5-1-2-1 (or survivor in which case 5-2-2-0). This isn't too unbalanced although the number of resurrections would have to be limited to make it fair. Possibility.

Town with resurrection ability can safely be ruled out unless there's a member of town who can both resurrect and determine alignment, but that seems unlikely.

Active lurking. You’re doing mechanical analysis to appear busy so you can avoid doing player analysis. And your count is wrong. I need to think about what this means.

Question for other players if they remember: Is it confirmed there's a conversion ability in the game or not? I don't recall.

Are you referring to the cult, which is mod confirmed?

This is the post I referred to as reading as S/S in the read list above. Someone mentions later that this vitality here is uncharacteristic of moody. It gives me the vibe of scum overcompensating for the feeling of not interacting with their partner enough.

If you're reading a scum team of me and patzer, then you would have to believe that I was bussing her D1 given me and boomfrog were the counterwagon to heury. This despite the fact that it's her first game ever; I just don't think I'm that cold blooded. Here's the post your talking about secondly. My opinion was that jimbob was shocked I was asking a direct question, which is something I'm not known to do a lot of.

1. LAMIST
2. This isn’t patzer’s first game ever (see above). The emphasis here feels really forced.

The idea of bussing is moot until someone is permaflipped. There is a way for at least one mafia member to be resurrected, otherwise we'd know that all resurrected people aren't mafia. So mafia are likely to be much more open to bussing on the first go around this game.

Does this mean I can think of you and bessie as a scum team? After all, it was her vote that pretty much sealed huery's first elim.

Why would you rule this out? Do you think I’m not cold enough to go for a hard bus?

cold bessie.PNG (168.5 KiB) Viewed 3691 times

Ok I see what you’re saying about the Pizzaz group but I will be watching for an interesting Madge mechanic.

Have you seen something like this before (and if so what)?

Like, you mean clues in the flavor? There’s a lot of in-jokes in the flavor, and I am not ruling clues out because Madge loves to breadcrumb.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here, but if mafia left town-Heury for dead, there would be one less town alive right now and another opportunity to miselim today (because we don't get the flip either way). And then we'd go into D3 with four dead and possibly zero flips. I'm not sure if engineering a situation in which there's a flip as soon as possible is really worthwile for mafia, even if they have an unlimited resurrect (which feels pretty OP to me).

We get to vote today to eliminate someone.
If heury is town and we auto-eliminate him, then we’re not eliminating mafia.
If we auto-eliminate heury today, there is no extra info to analyze from the elimination because it is just a rehash of D1.

This post reinforces my suspicion of somitomi.

Oh god, you two.

Hey give us a break! We’re young and in love!

-The Facebook posts don't contain any game-relevant information and people shouldn't look for info there. I agree with bessie, however, that the italicized X members are in the pazazz group is probably relevant.

I didn’t share this earlier when I asked jimbob about the numbers because I didn’t want to influence his thoughts, is that the numbers do relate indirectly to the strength of the cult.

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced.

We’ve been discussing it throughout the game, including by me in this post.


Back later.

[boomfrog]

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

It looks like the cult's flavor was discussed on page 5, though to my knowledge it hasn't been confirmed by a mod yet.

Sorry, EBWOP:
How did you find that reference so easily?

[The Snide Sniper]

^ I just searched the thread for it.

[moody7277]

patzer: superficial guess at heury rez, placefiller TS list, responses to jimbob re her cases, partial reads distracted by technical issues, "confused" by jimbob's pressure, slightly into OMGUS territory.

Definitely a bit of crackage in this last post under jimbob's poking. Cynical view is actually of two minds here: either it's newbie scum coming unraveled or scum!jimbob playing break the newbie and doing a bang up job. Right now she's at -2.

To start with, patzer’s not a newbie. She’s not even new to xkcd mafia. She gave her history in her first post.

Interestingly, you have played with her before.
Secret Santa 2015
Smalltown Werewolf PYP

Wow, six years ago. Plus I've been out of the mafia playing loop for the couple of years since the old xkcd forum died. Cynical view owes you a couple of Milkbones.

Why would you rule this out? Do you think I’m not cold enough to go for a hard bus?

I think you would like me to say yes, but then I look at that face in the PNG and... I do get a bit nervous when I can't rate you above a +2.5, makes me think I should start worrying about statues that move when you don't look at them *shiver*.

Explain. How do I lack depth?

Post by post starting at number 8 which is where my most recent read picked up

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

post 8: response to Suzaku on how to read her better, "we" could include covert scum chat. questions somi about his huery read. woof-grr list with jimbob LG on top, heury Suzaku at bottom
post 9: response to boomfrog about lack of answer re flavor interpretation
post 10: deadline concern
post 11: continue with somi about inconsistency in huery read, votes huery

Following up with somi is a bit of depth. Point to you.

D2
post 12: no claims
post 13: wants to know why Snide voted heury, preempted reads due to hammer, concerned wam isn't finding hammer scummy enough, no answer from somi, asks Snide about heury reread.
post 14: schedule explination, jimbob better at trying to read bessie than Suzaku, more flavor spec, more with wam about how even the little bit of time patzer's hammer prevented might have been useful, poking somi about huery still, complaining to LG about his defense of somi

Starting to go from "in depth" to tunneling on somi, but I think I remember that was part of you meta. You also have a rather suspicious feel toward him for someone in the middle of the list. Makes me think the grrs go a lot further up.

post 15: reads list from end of D1, "has been noted" apparently moving into joke territory, specifically waiting for Suzaku post in the time denied by patzer, pokes patzer for content, non-mafia scum playing like town.
post 16: wants counterwagon to heury revote for information purposes, starts one by voting patzer due to lack of content
post 17: updated reads, somi Snide patzer heury at least slightly scummy, couple more players with conditionals

Deeper post as promised by the schedule explanation. Cynical view likes that you have over half the people in the game possibly scum, it just comfirms what I thought about your earlier woof-grr list.

post 18: responding to patzer about reads, mafia doing a heury rez, resposes to me about my read of her, patzer actually being inexperience challenged, patzer apparently has the wrong kind of content, reiterates her desire for more voting info than a auto revote of heury, still suspicious of somi

I actually agreed with the point in the first patzer quote here.

So, in terms of depth, you've got a tunnel on somi and patzer and the reads list in post 17. Despite having several players under suspicion, these are the only two you've seriously pressured.

[boomfrog]

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

If this was shocking and intriguing info why were you not shocked the first time I said it?

@patzer: Why is zombie flavor plausible when we already know the flavor of the cult?

[jimbobmacdoodle]

@patzer, why do you think the two scummiest players on my list need to be co-aligned?

It isn't necessary, it's just surprising and probably worthy of comment as to which sorts of alignments you'd anticipate both players in.

I did some speculation a while back, where I put heury as Survivor, you and bessie as Mafia, and LaserGuy as cult leader. I'm less inclined to think you're a Mafia buddy with bessie these days, owing to the fact that she was the first one to vote you, but I stand by my reads of you and heury/Seven (survivor!heury/Seven just makes sense to have a self-activated rez ability, and I don't think you would have done the cult mechanics speculation as the cult leader).

Um. Have you heard of the term "bus" before? Given heury was showing no sign of coming back to post, and even if they did, town looked set to re-vote him off again, this is precisely the context where a good solid shove under the bus would make sense for scum.

I hadn't recalled the word bus; that is of course a possibility but it isn't the most likely one that would first come to mind.

Insert sceptical bessie labrador picture here. The term bus/bussing has been used repeatedly throughout this thread. Care to explain why you didn't query what it meant before?

That's because I've been focusing on what didn't make sense in your post. The scum resurrecting+converting case does actually make a degree of sense.

Interesting to see the use of "scum" here when I was specifically focused on the cult. (The mafia holding such a power would surely make them overpowered when combined with their kill ability).

I'm assuming only cult have recruit power, because recruiting mafia is overpowered, and wouldn't make sense in a game with a regular cult anyway. It feels like you're clutching at straws here trying to find something to justify a scummy read of me.

Question for other players if they remember: Is it confirmed there's a conversion ability in the game or not? I don't recall.

Comments like this are now beginning to make me wonder whether patzer is a Jester... @patzer - we've been discussing a cult the entire game, since the very first game post in the thread, in fact. It's been discussed in mod posts, and in questions to the mod. I'm assuming you know what a cult is in terms of Mafia...

There's way too much nonsense coming from patzer. If she were really that confused about the game state, I think she'd have asked most of these questions D1. I repeat my earlier comment about it feeling like she's panicking.

This despite the fact that it's her first game ever

It's not patzer's first game ever (she's played before, albeit a while back - this was also discussed by her previously, I believe). Why did you think it was?

There is a way for at least one mafia member to be resurrected, otherwise we'd know that all resurrected people aren't mafia. So mafia are likely to be much more open to bussing on the first go around this game.

I think it's likely there's a targeted resurrection power, so that'll be enough to prove that resurrected people could be mafia. It doesn't necessarily mean that mafia control that power. Regardless, we don't know whether Mafia have the ability (or not) to rez anyone. All we know is that there's the possibility that there might be a game mechanic that allows for mafia to be rezzed.

I am 70% sure heury was mimicking his play in the aforementioned WWZ game though I'm not sure why. His play here is almost identical except for some nuggets of town tells. He did this same thing there: https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... post-84148

And also did the early town read thing as he did with you here: https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... post-84149

Both of these things ended up being a part of why he was eliminated D1.

Any suggestion why heury might have deliberately mimicked his previous scum game, which led to his own D1 elimination?

Suzaku - no tells either way, but not mafia considering the kill

Also not cult for that matter. Do you think a town-aligned redirection could have caused Suzakue's death? What about a town vig? If not, why not?

Maybe it's been a while, but I recall Jimbob being a pretty straightforward kind of person, so it never crossed my mind that it wasn't.

I don't recall ever doing a D1 gambit before, certainly not to the extent I did, FWIW. I have done late game gambits, usually as non-town though, if memory serves me correctly.

@BoomFrog - don't forget the possibility that cult targeted mafia and mafia are cult immune (since nothing else is practical).

This would make the cultist and investigative which seems a bit too strong, so I think they maybe die instead if they target mafia.

That thought had crossed my mind too, but I don't see it as being too strong - in such a situation, the cult leader would have to either claim a cop result and risk getting counter-claimed or NKed by the other mafia, or somehow try to persuade everyone who is scum without revealing the knowledge. Further, it gets messier if there are roleblockers in this game, since the cult leader won't know why their recruit failed.

@Seven - what would be the point of a self-annihilation?

@patzer: My previous question was important, please answer it. Why did you think zombie flavor made sense for the cult when we already know the cult's flavor?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

Another example of patzer not paying attention. It's almost like there are two different people playing under patzer's username...

[patzer]

patzer - we've been discussing a cult the entire game, since the very first game post in the thread, in fact. It's been discussed in mod posts, and in questions to the mod. I'm assuming you know what a cult is in terms of Mafia...

Ah right, I didn’t know it was confirmed the cult had recruitment ability. I think that makes the cult the only ones likely to have conversion powers then.

Why wouldn’t mafia want to resurrect a distraction and waste a day?

Because not doing so would leave them in a clearly better position than doing so. There’d have been no evidence for who we’d target next and no flips.

Anyway. fuck. Less than 2 days to elimination time.

You’re doing mechanical analysis to appear busy so you can avoid doing player analysis. And your count is wrong. I need to think about what this means.

it takes a lot of effort to sort out the middle of my list on signs that don’t mean as much relevance, but on the other hand mechanic analysis is crucial for working of if town!seven is plausible. Which is really the main question at the moment.

I personally don’t buy town!seven. I don’t think her explanation is sufficient.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

Bleurgh, just realised I messed up quote tags. Reposting the latter half of that post:

This despite the fact that it's her first game ever

It's not patzer's first game ever (she's played before, albeit a while back - this was also discussed by her previously, I believe). Why did you think it was?

There is a way for at least one mafia member to be resurrected, otherwise we'd know that all resurrected people aren't mafia. So mafia are likely to be much more open to bussing on the first go around this game.

I think it's likely there's a targeted resurrection power, so that'll be enough to prove that resurrected people could be mafia. It doesn't necessarily mean that mafia control that power. Regardless, we don't know whether Mafia have the ability (or not) to rez anyone. All we know is that there's the possibility that there might be a game mechanic that allows for mafia to be rezzed.

I am 70% sure heury was mimicking his play in the aforementioned WWZ game though I'm not sure why. His play here is almost identical except for some nuggets of town tells. He did this same thing there: https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... post-84148

And also did the early town read thing as he did with you here: https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/ ... post-84149

Both of these things ended up being a part of why he was eliminated D1.

Any suggestion why heury might have deliberately mimicked his previous scum game, which led to his own D1 elimination?

Suzaku - no tells either way, but not mafia considering the kill

Also not cult for that matter. Do you think a town-aligned redirection could have caused Suzakue's death? What about a town vig? If not, why not?

Maybe it's been a while, but I recall Jimbob being a pretty straightforward kind of person, so it never crossed my mind that it wasn't.

I don't recall ever doing a D1 gambit before, certainly not to the extent I did, FWIW. I have done late game gambits, usually as non-town though, if memory serves me correctly.

This would make the cultist and investigative which seems a bit too strong, so I think they maybe die instead if they target mafia.

That thought had crossed my mind too, but I don't see it as being too strong - in such a situation, the cult leader would have to either claim a cop result and risk getting counter-claimed or NKed by the other mafia, or somehow try to persuade everyone who is scum without revealing the knowledge. Further, it gets messier if there are roleblockers in this game, since the cult leader won't know why their recruit failed.

@Seven - what would be the point of a self-annihilation?

Where did you find the cult’s flavour? I don’t remember it being announced. This is kind of important as it may affect my judgment; thank you for the info.

Another example of patzer not paying attention. It's almost like there are two different people playing under patzer's username...

[somitomi]

I'd like to make a counter-public announcement and say that this is only an opinion. I disagree with this entirely and think it is alright to put someone at L-1 so long as you announce it.

Yeah, welcome to xkcd...

-Suzaku and me are confirmed non-cultists due to the 1 cult member being alive at day start.

I don't think the cult count confirms you since you were dead at day start. A recruit by way of resurrection would make the life of cult very hard though, so I don't think you're likely to be cult.

-There are probably several ways for people to be resurrected this game. It's a bit wacky to me that everyone is surprised-pikachu-face about Heury being resurrected in a game centered around resurrection. Based on Jimbob correctly identifying my role, I'd speculate there are other phoenixes/phoenix-like roles out there in addition to mine. I also suspect there is a necromancer, given the Halloween theme. And mafia has at least one way to be resurrected, otherwise we'd be able to deduce that someone is town based on their potential to be revived.

If there is a necromancer (which is pretty likely), that's already a way for mafia to revive otherwise the necromancer could just pseudocop dead players by trying to revive them.

This fine pretty lady is spitting 100% straight truth, except that role is made up, which isn't a great move when you're already on the brink.

But we should still keep her as a valuable town asset anyway.

Why do you think Seven made that role up?

We get to vote today to eliminate someone.
If heury is town and we auto-eliminate him, then we’re not eliminating mafia.
If we auto-eliminate heury today, there is no extra info to analyze from the elimination because it is just a rehash of D1.

Do you disagree with anything in the thought process I outlined in that quote? If not, which scenario do you think is more likely and why?

Ah right, I didn’t know it was confirmed the cult had recruitment ability. I think that makes the cult the only ones likely to have conversion powers then.

Erm, what did you think cult was or did when you read the opening post?

I don't recall ever doing a D1 gambit before, certainly not to the extent I did, FWIW. I have done late game gambits, usually as non-town though, if memory serves me correctly.

Did you find it surprising that I took that remark seriously?

[jimbobmacdoodle]

A recruit by way of resurrection would make the life of cult very hard though, so I don't think you're likely to be cult.

Why do you think it would make the life of cult hard?

I don't recall ever doing a D1 gambit before, certainly not to the extent I did, FWIW. I have done late game gambits, usually as non-town though, if memory serves me correctly.

Did you find it surprising that I took that remark seriously?

No, not at all. In fact, I fully anticipated some players to think that I was serious with my Snide Sniper vote, due to my previous lack of gambits like this. That was half the point of it: players who recognised that I was pulling a gambit would hopefully join in, to help push TSS, whilst those who didn't I'd be able to analyse their reactions, along with The Snide Sniper's own.

[moody7277]

It's not patzer's first game ever (she's played before, albeit a while back - this was also discussed by her previously, I believe). Why did you think it was?

I figured she was an OTTer who was just now dipping her toe into mafia instead of being a mafiOTTer all along like us. bessie already brought this up a couple of posts back, so you don't get any Milkbones.

[patzer]

It's not patzer's first game ever (she's played before, albeit a while back - this was also discussed by her previously, I believe). Why did you think it was?

I figured she was an OTTer who was just now dipping her toe into mafia instead of being a mafiOTTer all along like us. bessie already brought this up a couple of posts back, so you don't get any Milkbones.

To be fair I am now realizing just how little I remember of when I used to play lol. It’s like 10x as hard as I expected, trying to remember so many people and posts and intricate game details. I’ve reread the thread a few times now and still keep forgetting stuff.

Erm, what did you think cult was or did when you read the opening post?

Oh, I just thought recently “hang on, I’ve been assuming the cult converts people and expands in size like that, and we’ve all been taking that for granted, but I don’t remember if it was ever confirmed” so wanted to check to make sure I wasn’t inadvertently overlooking stuff.

[jimbobmacdoodle]

That would be one way of making the game quite bastard: advertise that there is a Cult, but not give them the ability to recruit!

[patzer]

I take it cult recruitment is standard for games with cults in them then.
So yeah, it’s almost certainly going to be the case here.

I doubt multiple people will have conversion ability but who knows.

[boomfrog]

@patzer: viewtopic.php?p=8321&sid=08e68c4b558fad ... 15d3#p8321

Please answer. These question may seem superfluous but they are important for me to understand your mental state.