Halloween 2024: The Time Travellers' Party [D1]

[Makhaira]

Im seeing my WIM by wam rn, only one factor tho, currently doing some more thread review

was mostly interested to see if either of you would try to make a last minute push for me because I think only scum would do that at this point, was expecting yall to crossvote already at this point tbh

I will be in the tread for at minimum 5 more hours so Im taking my time to re-review EODs and wagon moves

[Makhaira]

adum do you think the scum kill is compulsory?

[Makhaira]

So have started this post and got distracted multiple.times this afternoon so apologies for any mistakes.

So I think we can POE this out

Town core
Adum
Seven
Fred
Thea

Possible elim targets
Bessie
JC
Makhaira
Moody
Santygrass
Seven
Somi
Wam

Within the ab

Ebwop I did not mean to post that. Will keep going and finish it!

Wam can you reexplain what exactly happened here

[madge]

Note: if there is no hammer vote before deadline, I am willing to unofficially extend the deadline 15-30 minutes. That said I think that at least 2 people are in the US and the deadline's in the middle of the night either way?

[Makhaira]

The cop being insane massively simplifies what happened last night. Unless whoever flipped the cop results can multitarget.

On the mechanics note, anyone else think a loud results cop is probably just too strong for a setup? Even an insane one.

Adum where do you come out on this balance issue now?

[Makhaira]

Madge that is generous but I think we should honor the deadline strictly in the case of a 2v1 endgame, atleast town should assume that the winning elim should be submitted before deadline because there is no guarantee extension requests would be received in time, that a game losing risk to take

[madge]

Fair, hopefully you people decide before it ticks over anyway.

[Makhaira]

I strongly, strongly recommend you two cross vote so you can confirm I am town and focus on helping me solve the opposing slot and townread you like from each of your POVs that is what you need to be using this last remaining time to do. I know its selfish af but I really do think I am that obv town and the wisdom of the townflipped crowd agrees, plus youd have to think me and moody were both trying to bus each other like creating that artificial SvS would have been a massive strategic blunder our slots did not need to fight if we were aligned and we could have very easily placed out mutual focus elsewhere to push miselims

[Makhaira]

If you both cross vote I can guarantee I will not miss the deadline so we dont have to worry about anything truly last minute as Im going to bed well before deadline and am not going to bed before I vote

[Makhaira]

quoting to ping only

to each of you, why would the other player kill Seven at the point Seven was NKd? What did they have to gain/lose? Give me full thoughts

[AdumbroDeus]

No idea if the kills are compulsory. Been a long time since I had a killing role and I don't know if it's the standard. I thought SKs were compulsory but as discussed earlier this apparently isn't a thing.

The cop being insane massively simplifies what happened last night. Unless whoever flipped the cop results can multitarget.

On the mechanics note, anyone else think a loud results cop is probably just too strong for a setup? Even an insane one.

Adum where do you come out on this balance issue now?

I think the role is kind of an abomination but for the reasons I suggested it's probably "balanced" in isolation because of it's inconsistency and that it's compulsory which essentially means it requires a claim. But there's also just a lot of clearing power because of the other cops.

[Makhaira]

Cop that produces nonTown result when they target Town and Town result when they target nonTown.

And the cop knows they have that modifier?
As in, the insane cop that targeted Adum would know that result was possibly not accurate ?

If thats not the case, isnt that considered bastard?

The cop sanities, minus random, not only are considered "not bastard", they're considered normal. That includes the cop not being aware of them.

The key phrase is "reasonably anticipated". A lot of stuff has been grandfathered in and normalized for the cop because people have gotten used to it that would be unacceptable for other roles.

Adum do you agree that if you received a godfather role that provided the power "you are read as Town for the purpose of Town vs. Non-Town checks" or equivalent boolean check outcomes that from your POV it might not be immediately obvious how a public "non-town" result on your slot might actually be anticipatable based on the nuance of how insane and/or paranoid cop work?

[Makhaira]

Alternate sanities for a cop would also be supported by the presence of masons acting as a miller for the chat finder, who might otherwise assume anyone with chat=scum.

Going to assume Adum, Fred, and Thea are town for the purposes of doing the player post-by-posts.

interesting clear of adum fred and thea here off the rip from moody, bumping to look back at later

[Makhaira]

For the record, I don't think Adum is cleared. I just think that the results nullify each other until we have more information. They should be ignored and we should read him by his play. If it's true that he was the night kill target, that would be a point in his favor, and clearing if we are dealing with one scum team.

I could see godfather!Adum having the same reaction to the results today if he was targeted by an insane cop.

I wonder how seven feels about this post now because this is how I want to play

[AdumbroDeus]

I strongly, strongly recommend you two cross vote so you can confirm I am town and focus on helping me solve the opposing slot and townread you like from each of your POVs that is what you need to be using this last remaining time to do. I know its selfish af but I really do think I am that obv town and the wisdom of the townflipped crowd agrees, plus youd have to think me and moody were both trying to bus each other like creating that artificial SvS would have been a massive strategic blunder our slots did not need to fight if we were aligned and we could have very easily placed out mutual focus elsewhere to push miselims

Nope, because I'm not confident in my ability to read behavior right now and I'd prefer to see how Wam reacts to the issues I pointed out with his rationale over potentially giving you the win as scum.

[Makhaira]

Bessie

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

D1
post 1: miffed at Madge for not letting her do her conf post thing
post 2: Woof-Grr list with wam, somi towniest after her, Seven scummiest. Given the tone and how early it is, may need to be taken with a grain of salt
post 3: dislikes Seven claiming, seems a bit wary of the worst, asks wam about why he thinks the worst is in fear of Bessie
post 4: Finnegan's Wake post
post 5: responses about Finnegan's Wake, likes Fred liking the book
post 6: JC and Bessie mindmeld, wants T>S lists from Mak and Fred (tilting at windmills there), rebuttals to her lacking content, positive read on worst, Thea non-elimable
post 7: Woof-Grr list with Fred and Seven scummy, JC and Thea townie
post 8: Thea town due to self restriction, reading reactions to Thea
post 9: 2nd reads based on gut
post 10: reactions to Adum asking about her reads
post 11: votes Fred, notes Seven's comment about her
post 12: comment to Adum about read of me, Thea's read of him
post 13: doesn't like Adum "gaming the mod"
post 14: sifts out the plain reads from her first Woof-Grr for Adum
post 15: asks Seven about her vote of Bessie
post 16: wants clarification about question Adum asked
post 17: alternate explanation for Thea's mason group
post 18: clarifying comment about Madge re chat that it wasn't about slipping
post 19: Fred's lack of utility still makes him vote worthy
post 20: worst not votable
post 21: reiterates point from post 19, somi and Seven also scummy
post 22: Seven given reprieve due to IRL reasons
post 23: personal stuff

Really like her interactions with Adum here, mostly on meta elsewhere

D2
post 24: upset at wagon on the worst, doesn't like how the Fred/Thea masons situation was handled
post 25: doubtful of result on Adum, doesn't like Mak's reaction, wam's vote, still entertaining non-town thoughts in Fred/Thea situation, reactions to other players, not happy with Thea's conclusion about her
post 26: Fred not only one Bessie starts at scummy, says she has no chat

Final grade +2

Alternate sanities for a cop would also be supported by the presence of masons acting as a miller for the chat finder, who might otherwise assume anyone with chat=scum.

Going to assume Adum, Fred, and Thea are town for the purposes of doing the player post-by-posts.

Do you think Seven reveals Adum as green if scum ?

I think, as Seven pointed out, we were also figuring that Adum was the protected NK (maybe 80% likelyhood or so) which would have led to us thinking of Adum as green so that scum!Seven would see no cost to confirming that given after the initial burst SoD we're not likely to elim Adum

high ranking a townslot here

Wam and Adum is there TMI from moody in the last bit here?

[Makhaira]

adum if Im scum and you're town you already lost your turn to be humble and bite the bullet, vote wam and get your headspace clear this is not the time for this nonsense

[Makhaira]

every major town player agreed Im town this game I did not snow the entire community like Im sorry many Im just town this is not some crazy overswarm egopost setup

[Makhaira]

you either lack WIM as town and are throwing or you're just scum keeping your options open which is a bad look

[AdumbroDeus]

And the cop knows they have that modifier?
As in, the insane cop that targeted Adum would know that result was possibly not accurate ?

If thats not the case, isnt that considered bastard?

The cop sanities, minus random, not only are considered "not bastard", they're considered normal. That includes the cop not being aware of them.

The key phrase is "reasonably anticipated". A lot of stuff has been grandfathered in and normalized for the cop because people have gotten used to it that would be unacceptable for other roles.

Adum do you agree that if you received a godfather role that provided the power "you are read as Town for the purpose of Town vs. Non-Town checks" or equivalent boolean check outcomes that from your POV it might not be immediately obvious how a public "non-town" result on your slot might actually be anticipatable based on the nuance of how insane and/or paranoid cop work?

As I made clear, that's the mod not lying for me when they're supposed to be lying for me. That's not bastard. If I were a godfather I'd also probably have inherent insight and likely come to a more immediate conclusion about what happened.

As I said before and I believe we've talked about, I have a general distaste for alignment cops, they're too binary but I don't think I've mentioned before this game that I think mod lying solutions (which millers, godfathers, and sanities all are) are good solutions to the inherent power of the role.

[Makhaira]

I would not have chain targeted Seven thats soulread behavior and I didn't need to give seven my power multiple times to "pocket" them if I am scum I was already trust by N3 and N4 and I was just dumping whatever power I could into a trusted slot that didnt have shot limitations

scum!me would have spread my powers around to either try to weave in mates getting to double use their abilitys or ingratiate the slots that were scum reading to convince them I was town and get them off my backs. I didnt do that because I didn't trust those slots! you can clearly see the risk mitigation intent with my role possibly having unknown consequences from a town POV. scum would have to very, very strongly emulate a town POV to emulate the paranoid headspace of empowering unknown unknown empowering effects because from a scum POV empowering one slightly stronger town ability only has so much variance in -EV it could inflict because I already would have been able to reasonably predict NK and night action tempo because of scum TMI

[AdumbroDeus]

every major town player agreed Im town this game I did not snow the entire community like Im sorry many Im just town this is not some crazy overswarm egopost setup

But every major player believed I'm town too!

Look at it this way, the obvious answer for scum Adum was to immediately go after Wam. Most dead town suspected him, I had him as scum most of the game, it makes much more sense from a mech standpoint. So why wouldn't I if I'm scum?

Ya, I don't have WIM right now, but I have a damn good reason to not have WIM, so if you're town maybe instead of going based on confidence, look at what makes the most sense from the game state, look at whether my play makes sense from a town POV. Don't just go with confidence.

[Makhaira]

dont you dare compare your "consensus" townread to the one this game had on me thats insulting tbh

I have a way better voting record than you like I out towny you by a mile Im sorry

I also feel like you lacking WIM and then still hedging and refusing to vote Wam is very contradictory. if you're gonna play lazy town you should WANT to narrow your consideration window. if you're going to take the "all worlds are open posture" and then just sit back and say "sorry I dont have the WIM to sort you both rn" then you're literally just throwing as town

I very seriously cannot see any reasonable POV for you where Im am more likely to be scum that wam

[Makhaira]

here lets make things very simple

do you agree that from my POV its either you are a godfather or functional equivalent, or its wam?

[Makhaira]

if you dont have the WIM think of it this way, everyone else in the game townread me so if they got snowed and you got snowed literally no one can pin the loss on you, not that Im saying that should be your primary consideration, but its to my point that if Im scum this game I pretty solidly just deserve to win at this point because Ive played my magnum opus game

or Im just fucking town

and when you vote wam and I dont alpha you will very quickly have the answer in front of you and all you have to do is help me see it, if you're town

you literally don't give town!me any more info if you are scum because I already know its between you and wam from my POV. and if you're town you make your endgame lift much easier because from your POV you will have the literal solve