Halloween 2024: The Time Travellers' Party [D2]

[Theallieza]

Wait, I'm stupid.

@thea or Fred, do your role PMs specify you can only communicate through your discord chat?

It says we can chat through the Discord. There is no specific allowance or mention of chatting via PM one way or the other.

[AdumbroDeus]

Wait, I'm stupid.

@thea or Fred, do your role PMs specify you can only communicate through your discord chat?

It says we can chat through the Discord. There is no specific allowance or mention of chatting via PM one way or the other.

Ok, then you're right.

I didn't think of the bleeding obvious "why not ask the claimed masons" and just kind of just assumed everything was allowed as long as you send everything to the mods with a discord for convenience.

[Theallieza]

It was an interesting sort of Rorschach test to see how people interpreted my quotes. By and large I was trying to answer things as straightforwardly as possible within the confines of movie quotes, so it was interesting to see how much ambiguity people elected to see. I was honestly hoping for a little bit more people engaging in my content and trying to understand what I was saying instead of just claiming it was all a mystery. Maybe I was overestimating how easy it was to interpret them because I knew what I was trying to say.

NGL, I think this is misplaced. The issue isn't that what you said isn't understandable (most of the time, you never did get to clarify if sundown was metaphorical or literal and for that day, that day phase, etc), it was the lack of complex thoughts and explanations justifying sentiments conveyed. I don't think your style prevented it either, you just didn't and I think doing that would've led people to engage with you much more.

I don't really agree with this. We played a game a few years back where BoomFrog did nothing but Woof and Grr at people for the better part of D1 and I do not recall it being difficult for people to engage or interact with him despite the lack of complex thought. Maybe I just don't have BoomFrog's genius, but I disagree that it is impossible in principle to engage with someone whose thoughts are very brief.

You were the only person who expressed this concern, and it was in a "I want you to explain all of your reads in more detail" sense, which I wouldn't have done even if I were playing normally. Specific reads, yes, but the whole thing? Not a chance.

Mak is super obvTown and I won't hear otherwise at this point.

Mind explaining this more? I've had Mak as a townlean since his play near EoD but I don't think anything he's done is outside his scum range so I'm curious what you think crosses the line into obvious town.

Tone mostly. His excitement about the Night results and whatever it was he believed he did to effect them screams Town to me. His scum play tends to be fairly reserved and cagey in my experience.

[Makhaira]

to be absolutely clear I am NOT claiming to be the joat. I am obviously claiming a PR though, but I starting to realize this game probably is not very mountainous at all so that probably means very little

I do not claim to have any explicit results on anyone. my initial reaction to the day start post was based on a completely erroneous understanding of the timing of my ability and thus the knowledge or partial knowledge I was saying I had is not accurate. I mean I could still be right about what I think happened, but I def do not have the data to make me more confident in the theory that I thought I had

At this point, here's what I see:

Never the play today:

Thea
Fred
Seven

Undecided but would need a good reason to consider them as plays:

JC
Wam
Somi
Moody

OMGUS:

Santy

Plays:

Adum
Bessie

HOWEVER ADUM IS COMPLETELY CONTINGENT ON SEVEN EXPLAINING HOW THEY KNOW THE RESULT IS TAMPERED

At this point I really cannot move on until Seven gives us the juice. We need to resolve the adum situation first and foremost. Seven if you think we are flailing and being destructive please take the wheel and walk us through the possible worlds you see based on your information re: the adum result, it will help ground us

[madge]

I want to apologise to everyone for all the drama. I feel responsible.

Mafia games are meant to be fun but this one is obviously not completely hitting the spot for everyone right now, and for that I'm truly sorry.

Hopefully you all trust that Sabrar would not allow an untoward amount of pizzazz.

The immediate most logical interpretation is a cop with loud results, and said loud results cop is either paranoid or insane.

mods can you confirm a random cop would be considered bastard by the rules?

I wouldn't personally consider a random cop bastard if at least 1 player knew the fact in their role PM, however given all the drama you should all remember I personally don't like randomness in mafia games at all, as I prefer things to be deterministic, and that when I declare a game non-bastard I would be inclined to be more conservative in that definition of bastardry than in what I'd consider bastard as a player.

Also for the record while I'm a traffic engineer, I'm not a traffic analyst (which is actually a computer science thing), I specialise in assessing the safety of road designs

[Makhaira]

madge fwiw my misunderstandings of my role have nothing to do with you or sabrar and are 100% on me

Im having a good time! whats mafia without a little bit of drama, as a treat

[Makhaira]

ADDENDUM TO MY LAST SUBSTANTIVE POST:

I could be convinced to not go adum if his own claim is sufficiently persuasive enough to convince me he was in fact targeted for the NK and he caused his own survival, or something along those lines. this could be sufficient for me independent of Seven making relevant PR claims to explain why the result is tampered, so either or if we are trying to conserve how many full or mostly full claims we make

[Freddino18]

Btw Seven, you need to counter immediately in the future. I realize you were trying in a soft sort of manner, but Jesus

Normally, no she shouldn't. I realize that in this case it was presented as essentially mod confirmed information about my slot instead of simply a role result and subject to paranoia and the like, but I was strongly townread by the majority of the cast last game day and we can't catch a scumbag from the CC.

Doing her utmost to preserve their role secrecy in order to preserve things for CC is the right move unless I was about to get hammered.

I am James Cole, I am a town Mason with Thea, and I have an unused one-shot loud non-kill night ability

Unvote

Which part of what I said, Adum?

Here, Santy had thoughts on a particular post of yours here: https://ramenchef.net/nxf/viewtopic.php?p=79288#p79288

and Mak had thoughts on you in general.

Before giving my thoughts on that post I wanna give them a chance to talk to you

Kinda thought that point was moot, seeing as it was directed at Thea and just had an opinion on me.

[moody7277]

Stream of consciousness post:

Adum's reaction means he didn't think he's a miller, and unknowingly being a miller does seem bastard.

Jack of all Trades used their [cop] power last night

Jack of all Trades targeted [adum] last night

[Traffic Analyst] has been inherited by the Backup

[Adum] is [non-Town]

Each of these are separate actions by separate players.

So, action 2 is what caused action 1 to produce action 4 which we are hypothesizing has been tampered with?

fwiw when I made that push right off the rip, I had not written off the possibility of a tailor/framer and/or crazy/paranoid cop, but I felt those probabilities to be low enough that in conjunction with what else I thought I knew, that the result was trustworthy. It was obvious to me that the cop result was loud and I took it as "we are getting the cops result PM publicly in an identical fashion to how the cop would have normally received it, and as such it is just as vulnerable to tampering/insane/paranoia/redirecting as a cop normally would be"

The fact that this went through your brain and you still went Leroy Jenkins after Adum is highly suspicious.

And i see Thea has decided that she's picking up for BoomFrog this game. Thea's claim is also the only reason the Family Truckster is parked this game.

[bessie]

Daily bark.

still down to kill bessie she didnt even vote adum in opener despite cop result

No, I didn’t. And I’m suspicious of you for accepting the result so quickly, without even considering that it may be tainted.
But I am most suspicious of you for this comment, that you would want to eliminate me for being level headed.

I think I know exactly what went down last night but I am not saying anything for now Im actually kind of in favor of just quick hammering adum and going back to night phase before scum figure out what is even happening

Also before town figure out what is even happening??

vote adum

What’s your hurry Wam?

I also hate all of you

Fred you are so scummy I want to eliminate you just on principle. And you are not yet cleared of being non-town in my mind.

I said I had no time and would probably not be checking the thread at all except maybe to vote. That was literally all the time I had.

I said I was mason and he is my partner. That means he is confirmed Town in my role....otherwise I would have called him something else.

Anyway.

Vote Adum

I will get to all of the pending questions for me tomorrow.

I would liked confirmation that you verified with Madge that she did not make a mistake and that you are neighbors. And your claim is a claim to me, not a confirmation.

I guess the only way to find out if the cop is reliable is either to have them investigate a known person (which we don't have, unless you believe Thea) or to flip Adum.

Vote: adum

This is poor reasoning and I do not agree.

How about let's not quickhammer.

This is the only reasonable post I have seen D2 and it is from SEVEN, of all people.

Fred and Thea, unvote. We are not quick hammering.

You're assuming 3-person Mafia, and the possibility that a non-town does not necessarily mean Mafia. While I agree with the assessment, the last two votes are good information. I will advise Thea to unvote, but I will stay where I am. If it's a three-person Mafia, they'll have to fully commit against the theoretical third faction.

Wut? Suspicious.

Quick morning post, I have nothing I want to claim and no private chats.

Interesting opening post from somitomi. He responded to Seven so he’s reading the thread, and he is deliberately not commenting on any discussion thus far.

That is a lot of fingers for a puppy, aren't you a little paranoid?

No, just introverted, cocky, insane, and tired, I've had one hell of a day.

I see. That was the last piece needed I believe. Wam, Moody, Santy are the scum team I believe.

Curious that your scumtean does not include the one confirmed non-town player

Curious that you accept Adum as confirmed non-town. Why haven’t you elaborated on this? Who do you think is scum with Adum.

I think I have worked out what you mean. But if I'm right you need to claim all the details as otherwise we are going to lose a day as without the details your not swining this elim no matter how good you think your persuasion skills are.

FoS Wam. You are not only an experienced mod, you are experienced at chaotic modding. I am very suspicious of this reasoning.

Get fucking hospitalized and this is the bullshit I return to

I am very sorry, Adum. How are you feeling?

Thea Im gonna need you to pop off today to convince me you and Fred are both town.


Otherwise Im just considering blasting one to confirm the other in case you are town. And if not we chant and feast on the wolf blood

Yes, I suggested this yesterday after you went to sleep. Read my content at end of D1. If people has listened to me, the worst would still be here and Thea might be confirmed town.

vote bessie

Ok. Reasons?

I am not able to communicate with any one outside of this thread

Ok, Do you have any opinions on today’s content thus far?
Edit, he’s at work. JC you better have something good tonight.

Btw Seven, you need to counter immediately in the future. I realize you were trying in a soft sort of manner, but Jesus

I do not agree and this is a scummy thought.

I'm kind of ambivalent on bessie at the moment. I think her reaction to how I've been playing so far is fine, bordering on too generous if anything. I don't really understand her push on Fred, and I think it's interesting that she apparently ignored what was by far the scummiest posts of Fred's (those related to him not reading his role) and focused on more flightly concerns. I think it's possible her SoD post was prewritten which I feel is slightly scum indicative. Putting her on scum lean at the moment.

1. Interesting you claim to be ambivalent of me. In your opening paragraph of this post, you claim that you were hoping for people to try to understand your content, and I was the only one who did so and defended it. So I am suspicious of this remark.
2. Fred not reading his role has been discussed by others. You want me to cut and paste so that you can accuse me of copying others’ content? And perhaps what is flighty to you is serious to me.
3. I don’t know what you mean by SoD. Please link the post.


I will be around but I have a bad headache we had a fire at work today.

[Freddino18]

Bessie, I would like to point out that you always find me scummy, regardless of alignment.

[Seven]

@bessie, can you confirm that you do or do not have the ability to privately communicate with other players?

My only private chat is with madge and sabrar

Just to clarify, you do not have the ability to privately communicate with other players?

[bessie]

Bessie, I would like to point out that you always find me scummy, regardless of alignment.

It's my default setting but not just for you. Ask Seven and somi.

Fred, some other players are treating you as "confirmed town" so why don't you start acting like it and be our leader? How about some doing some scumhunting and give us some reads?

@bessie, can you confirm that you do or do not have the ability to privately communicate with other players?

I don't like to claim if I don't have to claim, but I will for you. I don't have chat with anyone.

[Freddino18]

Fred, some other players are treating you as "confirmed town" so why don't you start acting like it and be our leader?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Seven]

I guess the only way to find out if the cop is reliable is either to have them investigate a known person (which we don't have, unless you believe Thea) or to flip Adum.

Why did you think the cop could be unreliable at that point?

I'm Old Joe from Looper. I am a mason with Fred, as I've said, who is confirmed Town in my PM, and we have a private chat. We both each also have a (different) one-shot loud power that neither of us used last night. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to revealing the details on that at this stage.

I am James Cole, I am a town Mason with Thea, and I have an unused one-shot loud non-kill night ability

You don't have to go into detail, but are there any other restrictions on your abilities? I just need a yes or no.

Just to be abundantly clear in my understanding of this:
You are claiming to be the first JoaT.
You are speculating the second JoaT is a framer who targeted Adum.
Another player X is a cop who received a non-Town result on Adum.

Assuming I have this correct, my question would be, why do you think your result was not tampered with but the other cop's was, if the scum JoaT was targeting Adum?

I'm on my phone during break at work so can't go back and quote everything, but from what I can tell you got a a town result on Adum, explicitly Adum, but it isn't your result...

So you got this from someone else?

I am genuinely perplexed by how the two of you came to these interpretations, given what I've posted. I suppose I can understand JC's confusion, thinking about it.

I have similar feelings about Seven who I felt of all people in this game should have had a reasonable idea of what I was attempting to do and why.

I understood what you were doing. Can you point to what gave you the impression that I didn't? I also very much enjoyed it, particularly because it was clear what you were saying. Do you believe you should have been town read for it?

I gave him a bit of pass D1 because he was sick but he was pinging me quite a bit for most of D1 because I don't reasonably think he should have found my play much worse than null.

I actually had a town lean on you up until you posted this read list. Adum is correct that we weren't able to tell why you had the reads you did, so I'm not sure why you believe it is unreasonable for people to scum read you.

A lot of people were asking me about JC, which, IDK, he has seemed more coherent and solid than any game I have ever seen him in, so I felt that was worth a Town lean. It's possible that he is similar to Wam in that the quality of his posting improves as scum, but it was enough for a start.

These were the posts JC had made at the point you put him as a town lean:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Well hello there.

I can already tell this is going to be a fun game. So much activity already.

I think the question should be how long is Thea going to keep this up?

If you're not able to empathize with someone who thought it was peculiar that you were town leaning him from these, that is more on you I think.

but I starting to realize this game probably is not very mountainous at all so that probably means very little

Madge's Halloween games are rolemadness btw.

HOWEVER ADUM IS COMPLETELY CONTINGENT ON SEVEN EXPLAINING HOW THEY KNOW THE RESULT IS TAMPERED

This is odd to me. I consider myself a mountain-centered player: one who prioritizes player content over PR information. I'll utilize the latter, yes, but the former takes priority when they are in conflict and there are hidden variables. Are you not the same? You believe Adum would react as he did as scum?

That being said, I will lay out my role and speculation since several people are asking for clarification.

What I know:

• I am Loud Jack of all trades
• The public aspect of my result reveals the name of the role I used, but not who I targeted or what the result of the actions was.
• I used my cop ability N1 on Adum. I privately received the result that Adum is town.

What I am inferring:

• My reveal was the first in the day start post.
• There is a second Loud JOAT that also targeted Adum.
• This second JOAT has their results revealed in the form of who they targeted, but not what role they used or what the result of the action was.
• There is a third Loud investigative (potentially a JOAT, potentially a cop) that is responsible for the fourth reveal in the day start post. Their results reveal in the form of what the result was.

What I am speculating:

• The result that Adum is non-town is false.
• Initially I suspected this was due to a Tailor. Note that the difference between Framer and Tailor is that the former targets a player and alters any investigative results on that player, while the latter targets an investigator and alters that investigator's results only. Therefore, if it is the case that reveal #4 is not a result of my cop, Adum could not have been targeted by a Framer since my private result is in disagreement. It is possible, however, that a Tailor targeted the investigator who is tied to reveal #4.
• Currently, I think that reveal #4 is a result of a Paranoia/Insane modifier rather than a Tailor due to what others have said.

And yes, Mak, I did indeed receive your gift. Thank you.

[Seven]

@bessie, can you confirm that you do or do not have the ability to privately communicate with other players?

I don't like to claim if I don't have to claim, but I will for you. I don't have chat with anyone.

Thank you <3

[Seven]

There are several other speculations I have about why the day-start results ended up as I did. One fun one is this:

Results come in the fashion of: [role][target][outcome]

There could be a player that alters the announcement of one of these. For example, N1 they could have chosen to alter [target] to [Adum], such that all public announcements that involve [target] say [Adum] rather than who the players actually did target. I have no evidence for this, it's just a fun thought. The one thing that leads me to something in this general area is that in my initial speculation, all three supposed cops targeted Adum, which I think is very unlikely.

Adum does seem to be implying some sort of lightning roddy role though? For the record, I specifically submitted my action on Adum, not redirected there.

[AdumbroDeus]

@Seven, For the record, I do think Thea is right that Mak's more relaxed play aligns more with town Mak, and his a big part of why I'm townleaning him. That said given his mountainous preference I am wondering why he seems to think I'm still scum and I'm wondering why he was interested in a quick-yeet without giving me a chance to talk.

I'm REALLY interested in his role clarification when that does happen, that may help us understand his thought process.


As far as your entries speculation to the loud role info and points about these all being seperate things:

That's part of why I initially read read the "adum is non-town" as supposed to be understood as mod confirmed information rather than a loud role result, and therefore that non-killing scum had the ability to present arbitrary messages as mod confirmed, and concluded the game was fully bastard rather than bleeding edge of bastard like I now believe. They were distinct entries.

For the record, until now, I thought the second one was just you, and that your overall role had loud targetting, but your abilities (or at least this one) also had separate loud targetting, role name reveal, and power reveal which created a second separate entry but now I wonder if you were hit with something that separately revealed your role, target, and what power you used but not the result.

You're confirming your cop ability didn't have something of that nature?

Adum does seem to be implying some sort of lightning roddy role though? For the record, I specifically submitted my action on Adum, not redirected there.

I am not. For the record I think based on what I said, I think the intrinsic role should be obvious, but so scum can't make correct NK decisions I need to preserve ambiguity about certain elements of the role. As a result, I think confirming too much is anti-town, at least at this juncture.

[AdumbroDeus]

It was an interesting sort of Rorschach test to see how people interpreted my quotes. By and large I was trying to answer things as straightforwardly as possible within the confines of movie quotes, so it was interesting to see how much ambiguity people elected to see. I was honestly hoping for a little bit more people engaging in my content and trying to understand what I was saying instead of just claiming it was all a mystery. Maybe I was overestimating how easy it was to interpret them because I knew what I was trying to say.

NGL, I think this is misplaced. The issue isn't that what you said isn't understandable (most of the time, you never did get to clarify if sundown was metaphorical or literal and for that day, that day phase, etc), it was the lack of complex thoughts and explanations justifying sentiments conveyed. I don't think your style prevented it either, you just didn't and I think doing that would've led people to engage with you much more.

I don't really agree with this. We played a game a few years back where BoomFrog did nothing but Woof and Grr at people for the better part of D1 and I do not recall it being difficult for people to engage or interact with him despite the lack of complex thought. Maybe I just don't have BoomFrog's genius, but I disagree that it is impossible in principle to engage with someone whose thoughts are very brief.

You were the only person who expressed this concern, and it was in a "I want you to explain all of your reads in more detail" sense, which I wouldn't have done even if I were playing normally. Specific reads, yes, but the whole thing? Not a chance.

Maybe I'll check out the game if it still exists and somebody can link it, but I wonder if boom just did it better mechanically. Similarly to how I think creative use of the quotes would allow you to express more complex thoughts I think.

I don't think this has to be full detail, but explaining the broad strokes of your thought process so people could latch onto things.

Given what you expressed, the only thing that I felt could be latched onto was your read progression, which only Santy pursued.

Speaking of which, Santy has kinda dropped off, I was hoping for more from the two of you

Mind explaining this more? I've had Mak as a townlean since his play near EoD but I don't think anything he's done is outside his scum range so I'm curious what you think crosses the line into obvious town.

Tone mostly. His excitement about the Night results and whatever it was he believed he did to effect them screams Town to me. His scum play tends to be fairly reserved and cagey in my experience.

This I agree on.

[AdumbroDeus]

Snip

Hey Bessie, would you mind explaining if your read of me changed between your last word/grrr list and if so when and why.

Particularly I'd like to know if this happened based on things that happened last game day, between the beginning of D2 and my entrance, and between my entrance and now along with the rationale.

[AdumbroDeus]

Oh yeah, and Bessie, Fredd has great reads as the game goes on but has a tendency to make terrible decisions so I don't know if encouraging him to be town leader is a good idea.

[AdumbroDeus]

Kinda thought that point was moot, seeing as it was directed at Thea and just had an opinion on me.

I was expecting people who expressed issues with it to want to question you more. If they just don't I'll explain my thoughts.

[moody7277]

Adum does seem to be implying some sort of lightning roddy role though? For the record, I specifically submitted my action on Adum, not redirected there.

I don't know if it was anything inherent in his role, but as inquisitorial as he was acting D1 and as townie as I thought him, he may have attracted a lot of PR attention just based on that.

[Freddino18]

Oh yeah, and Bessie, Fredd has great reads as the game goes on but has a tendency to make terrible decisions so I don't know if encouraging him to be town leader is a good idea.

Hence my quote about good intentions.

[Wam]

Catching up

@ bessie I'm going back to here

Bessie and Seven for more details.their interactions eod has made me th8nk it's TvS but I don't know which way and I'm not.awake enough or have enough time to dig into that feeling.

Do think that eod between you and Seven was tvs and if seven is town....

Irrespective of all the result I also think adums reaction was so genuine I would be very impressed if they are scum.

JC and make takes are weird