Are we human or are we dancer mafia (game over, Dancers win!)

[Santygrass]

Noted, I think the activity part from Moody is kinda NAI (If anything I feel like wolves are most interested in being close to EoD and stuff and kinda want to skip all the dance in-between) , and can just be IRL and letting other people know in advance is good regardless if your wolf or town. Though I do agree that the non-comittal part seems like they are positioning themselves to vote to save themselves without locking into a sus. 2 examples top of my head is the sus on bessie being mostly lovecraft mentions without mentioning anything in-game, JC casing being mostly a summary without a good reason to end up sussing more , and what they said about townreads sussing seven at start of day. Feels pretty much like they are going with the viable sus discussed in thread at the moment.


And for JC meta insight appreciated as well. I do think that the 'solve' they are pushing is v/v so I could see the angle. At the same time I dont think me or Seven get yeeted today :wowee:

[JC_DADDY25]

Wha
Why Im at the bottom? And why are you voting Seven and not me ?

So, I've felt this slot belonged on the bottom since last day phase, and had my vote there. Thing is, I also feel Seven is scum and feel the solve is there.

I wouldn't mind switching the vote to you though.

Still doesnt answer my question. Did you vote Seven first because Im a sub ?
And what last phase did you make think that? None of the events from today, or what I did had made you reconsider? (As in, I feel like you came into the day with a conclussion already and are not looking to reassess on it or absorb new information into your solve)

I voted Seven this day phase because of the way she started the day phase, and no nothing you have done or said has made me reconsider because by your and Seven's explanations...you're a damn good wolf.

[Santygrass]

Deadline is tomorrow though no?

[Santygrass]

So, I've felt this slot belonged on the bottom since last day phase, and had my vote there. Thing is, I also feel Seven is scum and feel the solve is there.

I wouldn't mind switching the vote to you though.

Still doesnt answer my question. Did you vote Seven first because Im a sub ?
And what last phase did you make think that? None of the events from today, or what I did had made you reconsider? (As in, I feel like you came into the day with a conclussion already and are not looking to reassess on it or absorb new information into your solve)

I voted Seven this day phase because of the way she started the day phase, and no nothing you have done or said has made me reconsider because by your and Seven's explanations...you're a damn good wolf.

That statement came from the middle of the day though, I had a stream of posts before that iirc

[Theallieza]

I am specifically curious why you think that Wam's result was manipulated, rather than that Wam's result is correct and Seven is lying Town. This is the simplest explanation that is sufficient to explain all of the data. It's weird that your default assumption is that this is some sort of a scum power play against you rather than Seven doing Seven things. What's your working theory for why scum!Seven would behave this way?

If you have a specific role-related reason why you believe Wam's result is manipulated, I'd strongly encourage you to share it.

I think Wam’s result was manipulated because I think Seven lying scum. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Hmm, I was thinking about this, and I think the problem is that you are not seeing my point of view. You are looking at it like one of town!Seven’s gambits because you don’t know either of our alignments. Conversely, I do know one of our alignments, and am using my knowledge of one to formshape my theories of the alignment of the other.

I have no specific role-related reason to believe Wam’s Seven result was manipulated. Ot that Wam’s result on you was manipulated. Is that the information for which you were fishing?

Yes, that was the information I was fishing for. You seem convinced that there was a manipulated result, so I wanted to be sure what you were implying.

Anyway, Wam claims his result was specifically Seven is Vanilla Town. Seven has admitted his result was a fabrication to see your reaction.

[Santygrass]

There might be one bussing scum committed to going deep. Presumably Santy in that case.

Just reading my line in your chart (as in, how I am being perceived by thread) you can kinda see that wouldnt be the case I think. At least as scum you cant bus and go deep if you're consensus sus, thats usually the slot that *is* being bussed if scum

[Santygrass]

Regardless pretry cool graph, def will bookmark it o7

[JC_DADDY25]

Deadline is tomorrow though no?

Deadline is in a little over 11 hours.

[Santygrass]

Wait, is there no bookmark function here?? Did I dream.about seeing one? Skill Issue moment

[Theallieza]

So Seven is lying town. I'm a VT cop, N1 seven came up as vt. Night 2 Thea, came up as vt.

So.thats a town core of 3 which should be enough!

That's L-2, please hold

I'm waiting for an answer from the mod then I will post wams game winning solution. Or.some approximation of that.

@Madge @Wam I don't have anything further I wish to claim (yes, I'm aware this just makes it further look like I'm gambiting). But Wam, you of all people know that I'm good.

Your also lying and whilst I don't always agree with it a lot of people have a elim all liers policy.

@ SEVEN & @ THEA

I want each of your answers to the following: What is significant about the relationship between these three specific posts as it pertains to Wam's credibility and what trap am I being deceptive about with this post?

The only thing I can see is that the whole thing hinges on Wam himself being Town.

[Theallieza]

Wam and Seven's claims directly contradict each other. No way both can be telling the truth. I can verify Wam at least is telling the truth about his result on me. Based on this, Seven seemed to know that Wam had a result on him, and doesn't seem to be pushing back against Wam contradicting him, so I think the most likely conclusion and the most consistent with Seven's meta in particular is that Seven is lying Town.

I don't think that Wam is likely to be scum here, though I did seem him claim a clear on someone who was Town as mafia before (Stellaris, I think it was).

I don't care for bessie's reaction to this and will need to spend some time rereading her. If she is scum it has been a long while since she has snowed me so completely, but I suppose I can't rule it out.

How does town!Seven (who is also a VT in this world) know for sure that Wam is town that town!Wam has confirmation that Seven is in fact town at the point Seven made the linked post?

Wam said he softed the result here having Seven as top town based on "gut". Also here. He repeated he was softing it here. Seven claimed he knew Wam had a result on him here.

[JC_DADDY25]

Still doesnt answer my question. Did you vote Seven first because Im a sub ?
And what last phase did you make think that? None of the events from today, or what I did had made you reconsider? (As in, I feel like you came into the day with a conclussion already and are not looking to reassess on it or absorb new information into your solve)

I voted Seven this day phase because of the way she started the day phase, and no nothing you have done or said has made me reconsider because by your and Seven's explanations...you're a damn good wolf.

That statement came from the middle of the day though, I had a stream of posts before that iirc

Good for you.

[Seven]

enlighten me

An appeal to emotion is attempting to sway others by provoking an emotional reaction. Using a word that describes an emotional state is not an emotional appeal in itself. It could be used to make one, however. For example:

"It aggravated me when bessie ate my chocolate bar" vs "I am disgusted by the recent rise of dog- and cat-eating immigrants! Are you with me my fellow Americans!?"

I see AtE as a little broader than that atleast for in-game purposes/how I interpret it is meant in common mafia parlance

I see AtE as also encompassing a player stating they they experienced or are experiencing a particular emotional state in reaction to new information, an accusation, or out of game stimuli that is impacting their ability to play. I believe implicit to this kind of statement is a suggestion by the player that said emotional state they are experiencing is bona fide, which suggests they are coming from an "uninformed" PoV and are experience a genuine reaction of surprise, indignation, excitement, etc. The assumption made here is that a scum player would not genuinely experience such emotions because of their informed status and thus would have to fabricate an emotional reaction in order to emulate a town PoV. Here, you represented you had a genuine emotional reaction to something that naturally follows from a purported town PR claim PoV. This did not actually happen by your own admission and you fabricated having an emotional reaction to "new information" you would have obtained from your claimed town PoV KNOWING that falsifying this emotional reaction would strengthen the appeal of your claim for this very reason. Being willing to falsify perspective of town PoV even when town aligned is a faustian bargain in that future attempts to communicate such genuine "updating" will be poisoned by your admission that you have the capacity and will to fabricate such reactions for to bolster claim credibility

This is really a meta debate tho so I won't push it further, just wanted to clarify my view on this

Fair. I don’t mind the bargain. For the record though, I didn’t lie, just misled. I was excited about my result ( conclusion) that bessie is scum.

Note: I’m in a similar position as the other day where I’m on low battery with sparse signal (I’m at a conference at a farm), so replies will be sparse or absent.

[JC_DADDY25]

And for JC meta insight appreciated as well. I do think that the 'solve' they are pushing is v/v so I could see the angle. At the same time I dont think me or Seven get yeeted today :wowee:

Sadly, I believe you're right. Good job!

[Theallieza]

enlighten me

An appeal to emotion is attempting to sway others by provoking an emotional reaction. Using a word that describes an emotional state is not an emotional appeal in itself. It could be used to make one, however. For example:

"It aggravated me when bessie ate my chocolate bar" vs "I am disgusted by the recent rise of dog- and cat-eating immigrants! Are you with me my fellow Americans!?"

I see AtE as a little broader than that atleast for in-game purposes/how I interpret it is meant in common mafia parlance

I see AtE as also encompassing a player stating they they experienced or are experiencing a particular emotional state in reaction to new information, an accusation, or out of game stimuli that is impacting their ability to play. I believe implicit to this kind of statement is a suggestion by the player that said emotional state they are experiencing is bona fide, which suggests they are coming from an "uninformed" PoV and are experience a genuine reaction of surprise, indignation, excitement, etc. The assumption made here is that a scum player would not genuinely experience such emotions because of their informed status and thus would have to fabricate an emotional reaction in order to emulate a town PoV. Here, you represented you had a genuine emotional reaction to something that naturally follows from a purported town PR claim PoV. This did not actually happen by your own admission and you fabricated having an emotional reaction to "new information" you would have obtained from your claimed town PoV KNOWING that falsifying this emotional reaction would strengthen the appeal of your claim for this very reason. Being willing to falsify perspective of town PoV even when town aligned is a faustian bargain in that future attempts to communicate such genuine "updating" will be poisoned by your admission that you have the capacity and will to fabricate such reactions for to bolster claim credibility

This is really a meta debate tho so I won't push it further, just wanted to clarify my view on this

I think the ship has kind of already sailed on this one. Seven has claimed a variety of false results and false roles as Town on numerous occasions. He posted a list of at least a dozen such instances earlier in the thread and AFAIK did his best to be genuine about those fake claims.

[Seven]

@Seven do you legitimately believe it would be dishonorable to truthfully tell the other players that one was experiencing a serious life event that impacts their ability to be present at crucial game moments as scum, but that doing so as town is completely fine?

Relatedly, do you believe somi seeking replacement at this juncture of the game with no clear provided reason to be dishonorable? And if so does your position depend on somi's alignment?

I wouldn’t consider anything mentioned here to be dishonorable. It *would* be dishonorable to use the major life event as AtE to avoid being elimmed at crunch time as scum.

[Makhaira]

Wam and Seven's claims directly contradict each other. No way both can be telling the truth. I can verify Wam at least is telling the truth about his result on me. Based on this, Seven seemed to know that Wam had a result on him, and doesn't seem to be pushing back against Wam contradicting him, so I think the most likely conclusion and the most consistent with Seven's meta in particular is that Seven is lying Town.

I don't think that Wam is likely to be scum here, though I did seem him claim a clear on someone who was Town as mafia before (Stellaris, I think it was).

I don't care for bessie's reaction to this and will need to spend some time rereading her. If she is scum it has been a long while since she has snowed me so completely, but I suppose I can't rule it out.

How does town!Seven (who is also a VT in this world) know for sure that Wam is town that town!Wam has confirmation that Seven is in fact town at the point Seven made the linked post?

Wam said he softed the result here having Seven as top town based on "gut". Also here. He repeated he was softing it here. Seven claimed he knew Wam had a result on him here.

This was very helpful ty

Seven if you have more to say on this topic not already covered here feel free to go now

[JC_DADDY25]

Wam
Thea
Bessie
Moody
Madge
Fred
Seven
Santy

Interesting, thanks.



So I've been piecing together everyone's reads today. Reading down the column will give how that player feels about everyone else. Reading across the row will give how that player is being read. I don't have full reads from Fred or bessie yet since they seem to be playing chicken with their reads for some reason that I do not understand. Anyway. Red is strong scum, orange is scum lean, yellow town lean, green strong town.

I think it is very interesting that there's a couple players who have such wildly different reads on them. Fred probably being the most polarized player with a couple of strong scumreads and a couple strong townreads. Seven is similarly polarized.

JC and moody are being read as scum by basically everyone.

bessie, moody, and JC all have very similar scumreads. Thea, Wam, Seven, Santy, Madge all have fairy similar ones. What I've gathered from Fred tends to align with the latter group.

I think it is unlikely that this split perfectly divides Town and scum. There might be one bussing scum committed to going deep. Presumably Santy in that case.

You have Moody and Madge reads flipped on my list.

[Santygrass]

Deadline is tomorrow though no?

Deadline is in a little over 11 hours.

Ohhh shsjjsjsjs I had it mentally in like 35 hours still. Haha will note it to not fall asleep today then o7

[Makhaira]

@Seven do you legitimately believe it would be dishonorable to truthfully tell the other players that one was experiencing a serious life event that impacts their ability to be present at crucial game moments as scum, but that doing so as town is completely fine?

Relatedly, do you believe somi seeking replacement at this juncture of the game with no clear provided reason to be dishonorable? And if so does your position depend on somi's alignment?

I wouldn’t consider anything mentioned here to be dishonorable. It *would* be dishonorable to use the major life event as AtE to avoid being elimmed at crunch time as scum.

understood ty

[Makhaira]

@THEA @SEVEN

Kind of disappointed yall didn't catch my trick in the wam quotes post. If I told you I intentionally manipulated the quote order in my post to make it look like they were posted in temporal order but they were in fact in reverse order, what do you think I was getting at about Wams play in that post progression and how it might inform us about his POV?

[Makhaira]

My possible worlds are substantially narrowing by the way, I just have a few more slots to review to complete my PoE, I should be able to get some more substance up on about 6-7 hours and then I will be available until deadline to respond to live going ons but I won't have the ability to do serious in depth analysis after 930 eastern as I will be heavily multitasking. Thankfully I don't have to worry about casting buzzer beater votes but I'll be around to give me final opinion on the best play. Going to be very busy for the next few hours so I have to dip for now

[Theallieza]

@THEA @SEVEN

Kind of disappointed yall didn't catch my trick in the wam quotes post. If I told you I intentionally manipulated the quote order in my post to make it look like they were posted in temporal order but they were in fact in reverse order, what do you think I was getting at about Wams play in that post progression and how it might inform us about his POV?

I'm still not sure I precisely get it?

Reading them from bottom to top, from Wam's point of view it looks like his thought process went:
-Seven is lying. I have a VT result on him.
-Oh wait, maybe my result has been manipulated. I will ask the mod to make sure that my result is unambiguous.
-Okay, confirmed with mod. My result is unambiguous. Seven is def lying Town.

Wam almost certainly has real results that say what he claims they say.

[Theallieza]

I always assumed that Wam's results were real because his result on me was correct though. It was more a question of whether scum!Wam would have reason to provide truthful results at this juncture.

[Theallieza]

Official VC

Bessie - 2: Freddino18, Seven
Seven - 2: Bessie, JC
moody7277 - 2: Theallieza, Santygrass
JC_DADDY25 - 1:Wam

Not voting: Madge, moody

Deadline extension: Seven, Freddino18

Deadline in 11 hours.