Are we human or are we dancer mafia (game over, Dancers win!)

[Seven]

you mind putting that correction in context?

Typically a Godfather is a role that receives a favorable result regarding the player's alignment not its role.

I really should proof read before posting. ADHD.

[JC_DADDY25]

The confirmation I was waiting for at ghe beginning of the day was around how the results were presented. I got "seven is" in the result and I confirmed with the mod this means no redirect

Is that different from the way it was presented for Thea?

No

So then, why the need for confirmation?

[Wam]

Is that different from the way it was presented for Thea?

No

So then, why the need for confirmation?

Because I wanted both confirmed. I have seen several variations over the years.

1) results are given as "your target is x"
2) results are given as " a is x"

Where "a" is given in the case of redirects some mods will give you "a is x" when your actual result is on b. Some mods give you "b is x" when you targeted a. I have confirmed with Adam we are in world 2 and if I was redirected I would have got "b is x".

[JC_DADDY25]

No

So then, why the need for confirmation?

Because I wanted both confirmed. I have seen several variations over the years.

1) results are given as "your target is x"
2) results are given as " a is x"

Where "a" is given in the case of redirects some mods will give you "a is x" when your actual result is on b. Some mods give you "b is x" when you targeted a. I have confirmed with Adam we are in world 2 and if I was redirected I would have got "b is x".

You know Seven is lying, you confirmed you targeted and got a result on Seven...why counter claim when you did?

[Wam]

Because I felt sevens lying as town gambit was going to throw the game.

[moody7277]

how do swiss and Fonti play?

Brilliantly

Unvote

The Fred wagon has been permanently parked. The creeping horror about bessie has reached Lovecraft levels, so I would be receptive if that is the chosen wagon for toDay.

[madge]

I have awful news: I'm no longer giving my husband a lift at deadline, I will instead be at work, so I will actually be able to sit through the whole cursed thing all over again how about that extension?

I broadly agree with Seven's approach. I am much more reluctant to vote bessie off first:

@Seven, can you clarify for me, using crayons if needed, if there is any reason to think bessie is scummier than anyone else that is related to a game mechanic? or is it just reads based? because if it's reads-based, moody, somi/santy and quite frankly you both feel scummier to me. in particular ssanty and moody were alts to town wagons, which is a vaguely objective scumminess indicator.

I'm not opposed to yeeting bessie in principal but I'm just so messed up with the confbias that I think I'm overcorrecting in the other direction. She hasn't done anything particularly scummy imo but she never does anything scummy even as scum.

bless you, pupper, for having such a firm meta. we are truly twin souls.

[Santygrass]

I just started trying to re-assemble my reads list and I'm just upset because this calls into question wam - is wam scum rolecop? this now becomes more possible because of the possibility of scum!wam wanting to clear town!bessie.

Seven, I am not joking when I say I am really upset at this development. I should have expected it, tbh, so shame on me, but I'm upset. I put a lot of brain cycles into the idea of bessie having a scum result of some sort and that has impacted my reads of you and wam and literally everyone else (e.g. scum!wam wouldn't put scum!thea on his clears list while trying to save scum!bessie, but maybe if bessie is town he would do it as a gambit). I look at my little PoE list down there and it's so poisoned by my confirmation bias.

You're a fucking gifted player who can read bessie as town or scum based on a comma vs semicolon, I'm sure, but I CAN'T and I look at claims and shit and here you are just laughing at me. (I know you're not actually laughing at me, you have your process, but right now fuck your process, I have my process and it's ruined).

I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm not voting for an extension, I am so sick of today and I am really quite keen on the idea of having it over and done with and maybe either me or Seven will be dead tomorrow.

My PoE:
Thea - town
Fred - town?
Wam - town?
Seven - town?
Moody - ?
Somi/Santy - ?
JC - ?
Bessie - ?

Why is thea confident town while Wam and Seven are just town?
Dont really get why Seven gambiting or whatever affects your wam read here

[Santygrass]

Ok. For the record, I found it more likely to be a town slip than a scum slip, but I intentionally left that part out to see how Thea/others interpreted it.

You lost me

I believe we have Day chat. Moody believed it was Night Chat only. Ergo he isn't a part of the mafia team. Ergo a town slip.

As for whether it is real, that's for debate.

*Noted*

I dont know if I believe it though . Maybe the best course of action related to this read having no site-meta clue would be just to ignore it hm (that goes for me feeling comfy with moody as scum because of that wowee)

[Santygrass]

Vote: Santy

I'm sorry Santy, but I can't seem to get down to a team where you're not in it :/

*Bonk*

Bad seven. You are even apoligizing wtf you know Im not a wolf here and are just scared of the possibility of me fooling you, I called you out on this where you are just worlbuilding and fitting the pieces as if I were a wolf but arent pointing to why you wolfread me or sus me because you cant find anything (or if you did, talk aboit ir so we can discuss it. Otherwise its super dismissive and unfair to me tbh)

[Santygrass]

@JC, when you are next around, what are your opinions of Fred and moody?

Figured my thoughts on Fred were pretty obvious.

Moody is sitting right there as possible scum, but I have a stronger feeling scum is somewhere in Madge, Santy, Fred, and Seven.

3 of those 4

Can you elaborate on... Any?
Otherwise it feels like just listing names. (In seven is not necessary though)

[Santygrass]

Wam
Thea
Bessie
Moody
Madge
Fred
Seven
Santy

Wha
Why Im at the bottom? And why are you voting Seven and not me ?

[Santygrass]

moody is weirdly non-committal and like pre making excuses for inactivity at a crucial time ugh

JCs activity surge makes my blood run cold

freddino is exceptionally good at fake self deprecation if hes scum

but yeah I still need to know why this isn't seven/bessie wagons only

Hi Mak!! Glad to see you here.
What do you mean with bolded?
Also not sure how I interpret 'making blood run cold' means for JC haha

[Seven]

Vote: Santy

I'm sorry Santy, but I can't seem to get down to a team where you're not in it :/

*Bonk*

Bad seven. You are even apoligizing wtf you know Im not a wolf here and are just scared of the possibility of me fooling you, I called you out on this where you are just worlbuilding and fitting the pieces as if I were a wolf but arent pointing to why you wolfread me or sus me because you cant find anything (or if you did, talk aboit ir so we can discuss it. Otherwise its super dismissive and unfair to me tbh)

I did actually review somi's post and could write an essay on his wolfiness.

[Santygrass]

@Madge
@bessie, given the above, what exactly is the "manipulation" that you believe took place.

There could be a redirector or bus driver.

Thank you, these are feasible.

However, the probability that Wam was targeted by a redirector N1 is 12.5%. This is lower if there are less than 3 mafia. A bus-driven Seven cannot be discounted. However, given the flipped PRs and the fact that VT Cop inherently has a balancing mechanism (false positives from PRs), it is unlikely to exist in this setup. Logic dictates that I am unlikely scum, and therefore your vote is illogical. Is it that you are emotionally tied to it?

From a meta-setup perspective, how likely or often does scum not have a counter to town investigatives here?

Im asking because I know f.e. in MU are pretty strong (the results are kinda true always and no possibility to mess much with them) , but f.e. in my community if there is a cop is expected for scum to have *some* sort lf counter measure

[Seven]

I just started trying to re-assemble my reads list and I'm just upset because this calls into question wam - is wam scum rolecop? this now becomes more possible because of the possibility of scum!wam wanting to clear town!bessie.

Why would he want to clear town!bessie?

@Madge, I'm curious about this.

[Seven]

There could be a redirector or bus driver.

Thank you, these are feasible.

However, the probability that Wam was targeted by a redirector N1 is 12.5%. This is lower if there are less than 3 mafia. A bus-driven Seven cannot be discounted. However, given the flipped PRs and the fact that VT Cop inherently has a balancing mechanism (false positives from PRs), it is unlikely to exist in this setup. Logic dictates that I am unlikely scum, and therefore your vote is illogical. Is it that you are emotionally tied to it?

From a meta-setup perspective, how likely or often does scum not have a counter to town investigatives here?

Im asking because I know f.e. in MU are pretty strong (the results are kinda true always and no possibility to mess much with them) , but f.e. in my community if there is a cop is expected for scum to have *some* sort lf counter measure

I keep having to go back and edit my posts with "I think" so that bessie and others are able to distinguish when I am clearly stating an opinion from a known fact.

I think scum has 1-2 PRs. I do not think they are result-manipulating roles. I have an idea of what one might be, but it's best left unsaid at the moment.

What is 'f.e'? Also what's your home site btw?

[Santygrass]

Is Mak a slot that is scary lategame ? As in, how likely was Mak a fearkill ? (I dont think it wasnt the case, but dont have the meta to be sure and affirm it lol)

being real with you, if anyone in this game answered this question with "no" then I would highly doubt their sincerity as arrogant and self serving of a statement that might seem

but relatedly

Has anyone here ever played with scum!Santy before? or even at all regardless of alignment?

I've seen him play as scum. Swiss/Fonti level essentially.

Do you understand the gravity of this statement and if so please explain it in your own words

I have an elite town game, and a pretty good town game that gets damaged because of how common is to fearmonger me. Basically people who know how I wolf always have the thought/feeling of 'wolf!santy would be able to do this' no matter how towny I am.

In S9 champs I randed wolf, and ended up being the 1 vote to advance there to finale. So even though I dont know who Seven is talking about, Im infering those are pretty hard to catch wolves

[Santygrass]

Yes, I should have waited to out my result on bessie, but I was excited.

explain the motivation behind this post

Poor attempt at lying because I correctly called it out that if the result was real they wouldn't have outed it SoD hmmyes

[Santygrass]

Is Godfather or roles that could mess with an investigative result common here or not?

Since I saw mentioned that game was non bastard I wasnt taking them into account but now questioning myself since godfather was mentioned as a possibility wowee

do you consider godfather or functional equivalents that return opposite boolean results to a straightforward cop variant to be bastard and if so why?

Bastard definition is everything that makes the host lie to you. So yeah, those are bastard (though low level imo) .

In MU they are shunned and disliked, but in FFL (my home community) are super common haha~

[Santygrass]

Wam - town
Seven - town
Thea - town

If Wam were a scum VT cop, it would be unideal for him to claim toDay as he would be expected to die during the night. I am therefore comfortable assuming toDay then that Wam is Town.

A Vanilla Cop is a weaker Role Cop that receives a Vanilla result on Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons, and a non-vanilla result on all PR roles. An argument could made that a Godfather should be read as vanilla; however, I believe the logical interpretation of the role is that it would be read as non-vanilla. Typically a Godfather is a role that receives a favorable result regarding the player's alignment no its role. For example, a normal role cop should read a Godfather as a 'Godfather'. Vanilla is a role, not an alignment.

Wam is a Vanilla Town Cop. It checks both the role and alignment of a player. This is stronger than a Vanilla Cop because he is able to distinguish between Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons. The key thing about this is that it is an 'AND' check. In order to receive a 'Vanilla Town' result, the player's role must be read as Vanilla and their alignment must be read as Town. As with a Vanilla Cop, therefore, a Godfather would not provide a "Vanilla Town" result as it would fail the first half of the check. Therefore, unless someone has another role in mind that would have manipulated Wam's results, they can likely be trusted. Therefore, both Thea and Seven are Town. Edit: bessie has proposed redirector or bus driver. See my response here. Additional point: A redirector would be incongruous with EGW's role, and so unlikely to exist in this setup. Edit: Wam has confirmed that the results are not redirected or bus driven here.

---

Madge - town

I think Madge's play today regarding the guilty result on bessie is town-indicative. I am considering two scenarios, scum!Madge with town!bessie and scum!Madge with scum!bessie. In town!bessie scenario, I don't think it is likely for Madge to have come up with thoughts like these:

@everyone: did anyone receive some sort of night action result on N1?

[snip]

Speculation: wam could be scum rolecop (is it bad that I love the little image in my head of scum!wam freaking out about a copped vanilla townie has a guilty result)

Seven-Bessie-Wam in one section:
- I don't think it makes sense for town!Seven to gambit killing bessie, she didn't scumread her that much did she? Like I could see a universe in which I see someone as so scummy that I fake a result so people will listen to me and vote them, but this is not what Seven had for bessie. The closest I could see is if Seven had some other night result (e.g. saw bessie visit EGW) and wants to avoid claiming her real power.
- Wam as town would do what he did
- Wam, as scum protecting bessie, would not risk claiming Thea is VT when Thea could easily contradict that (nb: maybe scum does have this actual power, or a rolecop, and knows Thea is VT). However, it would have the same issue: if Seven flips town, then Wam flips scum, and Bessie will also be killed. This makes two scum for one town, which seems excessive. That said - wam is claiming that Seven is vanilla town, so isn't actually trying to get Seven voted out, just trying to save Bessie. So I should probably re-analyse that.

Speculation: perhaps there's a cop who sends results (there was one in B99), and Seven received a result.

Speculation: wam could be scum rolecop (is it bad that I love the little image in my head of scum!wam freaking out about a copped vanilla townie has a guilty result)

I'm trying to figure out the mechanically optimal vote out. I agree we want the elim with best odds. My brain is feeling very soupy now and I need to get some work done, but I hope to come back in 4-5 hours.

Looking through the posts, I can't actually discount a scum!Madge/scum!bessie scenario. Scum!Madge would know that it was possible that I did have a genuine result on bessie and thus would be liable to have the speculations about Amnesia/JoAt/Tracker as she had. That being said, I think her speculation surrounding Wam's alignment and motivations likely stem from a town mindset. Her progression through her thoughts on Wam's claim are written in a way as if coming from a genuine stream of consciousness. This also resonates as genuine:

but I CAN'T

Fred - town

Fred's first game playing mafia was Millerizer Mafia, a game with an open setup and unique 3rd party-role. Fred's second game was Sorcerer's 11, a game with an open set-up and unique roles. Fred's 3rd game was Pick Your Poison, a semi-open setup with unique mechanics. Prior to this, he also entered AI mafia but replaced out at the beginning. I bring these up to put this post into context:

do mafia have daychat? it's probably in the rules which i did read ut didn't memorise.

The rules are a general ruleset with allowances for daychat but we don't even have a confirmation that there are actual scum.The rules are the vaguest on actual mechanics that I have ever seen. It's either that this game is entirely vanilla, or Adum is hiding a big stinker (wth is the name for one of those games?) (also I always phone it in until I do my in-depth analysis)

All Fred has seen up until now are open setups, generally with unique mechanics laid out. This is unconventional from how most players have entered the mafia scene, through Newbie games with Normal setups (mostly VT with a couple of PRs). He has yet to experience a closed setup, leading to his confusion at the start about whether there is even scum in the game. Additionally, due to this lack of experience with a closed setup, I do not believe that scum!Fred would have had the insight necessary to fake a line like this: "It's either that this game is entirely vanilla, or Adum is hiding a big stinker (wth is the name for one of those games?)"


That leaves these four:

Moody - ?
Somi/Santy - ?
JC - ?
Bessie - ?

I believe we probably have a ML so we could just eliminate all 4. I do want to try and make a hit today though.

I do not think the team is not Somanti/Moody/JC because of somi's post here:

EBWOP:
I think JC has actually posted more than Heury, but maybe I'm nitpicking. Still, seems like a slightly odd distinction

(I should not be trying to post from work)

Just did a quick count, and it's JC 11, heury 5. What I noticed most about heury's posts were the fluffiness, although it looks like his last one included reads.

It is unlikely that scum!somi would bring attention to a possible partner tell between his partners.

Therefore, it can be concluded that bessie is at least one of the scum.

Vote: bessie

(I confess that I skimmed this post and will try to read more in detail while Im not at work)

But this conclussion is not what you were saying before in regards to me. So I want you to talk about why you said those things about thinking I couldnt not be mafia/struggling to not put me in a team, to now you doing it with bessie ¿?

[Santygrass]

how do swiss and Fonti play?

Brilliantly

Unvote

The Fred wagon has been permanently parked. The creeping horror about bessie has reached Lovecraft levels, so I would be receptive if that is the chosen wagon for toDay.

Hihi, can you elaborate on this feeling?

[madge]

I just started trying to re-assemble my reads list and I'm just upset because this calls into question wam - is wam scum rolecop? this now becomes more possible because of the possibility of scum!wam wanting to clear town!bessie.

Why would he want to clear town!bessie?

@Madge, I'm curious about this.

Credit on flip, "if wam was scum he could have let us misyeet a townie" kinda thing. I don't think this is likely at all but it's in the realm of possibility

[Seven]

I have awful news: I'm no longer giving my husband a lift at deadline, I will instead be at work, so I will actually be able to sit through the whole cursed thing all over again how about that extension?

I broadly agree with Seven's approach. I am much more reluctant to vote bessie off first:

@Seven, can you clarify for me, using crayons if needed, if there is any reason to think bessie is scummier than anyone else that is related to a game mechanic? or is it just reads based? because if it's reads-based, moody, somi/santy and quite frankly you both feel scummier to me. in particular ssanty and moody were alts to town wagons, which is a vaguely objective scumminess indicator.

I'm not opposed to yeeting bessie in principal but I'm just so messed up with the confbias that I think I'm overcorrecting in the other direction. She hasn't done anything particularly scummy imo but she never does anything scummy even as scum.

bless you, pupper, for having such a firm meta. we are truly twin souls.

It all comes down to this:

Can you talk about the reason these three made the votables?

I agreed with EGW's point that Glue's emergent post had a highly suspect timing, his content since may do something to temper that, but I'm not recalling much to do that. Heury's been pure cotton candy. JC is probably the least votable of the votables, when he actually puts up some more posts I'll have an actual read.

I think JC has actually posted more than Heury, but maybe I'm nitpicking. Still, seems like a slightly odd distinction

If Somi/Moody/JC were the scum team, how likely do you think it is that somi would make this post? In this post, somi is saying it's weird that moody has JC as more null than heury, when JC has posted more. In other words, it would be calling to attention a potential connection between one of his partners and the other. I believe it is unlikely that scum!somi would do this, particularly at this point in the game. Scum distance from one another, sure, but on superficial things. This would be going beyond the superficial and potentially directly outting both of his partners.

The inverse of the percent chance you believe Somi would make this post in a Somi/Moody/JC world is the percent chance bessie is scum. If Somi/Moody/JC are not the team, then either bessie must be scum in all scenarios (since the PoE is among those 4) OR there is a misstep somewhere among the town reads that lead to this PoE (i.e. there actually is a scum among wam/seven/thea/madge/fred). Eliminating her will either tell us we are wrong about the town group or support the PoE as it stands.

[Santygrass]

Vote: Santy

I'm sorry Santy, but I can't seem to get down to a team where you're not in it :/

*Bonk*

Bad seven. You are even apoligizing wtf you know Im not a wolf here and are just scared of the possibility of me fooling you, I called you out on this where you are just worlbuilding and fitting the pieces as if I were a wolf but arent pointing to why you wolfread me or sus me because you cant find anything (or if you did, talk aboit ir so we can discuss it. Otherwise its super dismissive and unfair to me tbh)

I did actually review somi's post and could write an essay on his wolfiness.

Wanna see it.
(Point me to it + if you have anymore thoughts you havent said in thread also elaborate on those)