Are we human or are we dancer mafia (game over, Dancers win!)

[AdumbroDeus]

Vote count 3
2. Wam - 0:
3. Bessie - 1: Freddino18
6. Madge - 0:
7. Seven - 2: Bessie, JC
8. Theallieza - 0:
9. Santygrass- 1: Seven
10. Freddino18 - 1: moody7277
11. moody7277 - 2: Theallieza, Santygrass
12. JC_DADDY25 - 1:Wam

Not voting: Madge

With 9 remaining it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline extension: Seven, Freddino18

Day 3 ends on friday, September 20th at 12 am EST

[Makhaira]

Yes, I should have waited to out my result on bessie, but I was excited.

explain the motivation behind this post

[Makhaira]

So Seven is lying town. I'm a VT cop, N1 seven came up as vt. Night 2 Thea, came up as vt.

So.thats a town core of 3 which should be enough!

That's L-2, please hold

I'm waiting for an answer from the mod then I will post wams game winning solution. Or.some approximation of that.

@Madge @Wam I don't have anything further I wish to claim (yes, I'm aware this just makes it further look like I'm gambiting). But Wam, you of all people know that I'm good.

Your also lying and whilst I don't always agree with it a lot of people have a elim all liers policy.

@ SEVEN & @ THEA

I want each of your answers to the following: What is significant about the relationship between these three specific posts as it pertains to Wam's credibility and what trap am I being deceptive about with this post?

[Makhaira]

Less than 24 hours till deadline everyone as a heads up! Trying to cut to the chase with my questioning Im trying to rule out certain solves

[Seven]

Mak, you're wasting time with the scum!Wam theory. He'll be self-resolved toNight.

[Seven]

Yes, I should have waited to out my result on bessie, but I was excited.

explain the motivation behind this post

The motivation was to add credibility to the idea that I had an in-game result on bessie.

[Seven]

So Seven is lying town. I'm a VT cop, N1 seven came up as vt. Night 2 Thea, came up as vt.

So.thats a town core of 3 which should be enough!

That's L-2, please hold

I'm waiting for an answer from the mod then I will post wams game winning solution. Or.some approximation of that.

@Madge @Wam I don't have anything further I wish to claim (yes, I'm aware this just makes it further look like I'm gambiting). But Wam, you of all people know that I'm good.

Your also lying and whilst I don't always agree with it a lot of people have a elim all liers policy.

@ SEVEN & @ THEA

I want each of your answers to the following: What is significant about the relationship between these three specific posts as it pertains to Wam's credibility and what trap am I being deceptive about with this post?

Apologies, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm interested to see if Thea figures it out.

[Makhaira]

Mak, you're wasting time with the scum!Wam theory. He'll be self-resolved toNight.

figuring out Wams POV now helps solve before lylo and hitting today pays dividends

[Makhaira]

Yes, I should have waited to out my result on bessie, but I was excited.

explain the motivation behind this post

The motivation was to add credibility to the idea that I had an in-game result on bessie.

through fake AtE? faustian bargain

[Seven]

I just started trying to re-assemble my reads list and I'm just upset because this calls into question wam - is wam scum rolecop? this now becomes more possible because of the possibility of scum!wam wanting to clear town!bessie.

Why would he want to clear town!bessie?

[Makhaira]

also if anyone thinks we arent in 6v3 I need to hear arguments immediately and in full detail

[Wam]

The confirmation I was waiting for at ghe beginning of the day was around how the results were presented. I got "seven is" in the result and I confirmed with the mod this means no redirect

Is that different from the way it was presented for Thea?

No

[Seven]

explain the motivation behind this post

The motivation was to add credibility to the idea that I had an in-game result on bessie.

through fake AtE? faustian bargain

I didn't think of it as AtE. A couple of people said they believed if I had a real result, I would have held onto it instead of outting it immediately. Being excited about the result seems like a reasonable reason I would have failed to do that.

[Makhaira]

Is Godfather or roles that could mess with an investigative result common here or not?

Since I saw mentioned that game was non bastard I wasnt taking them into account but now questioning myself since godfather was mentioned as a possibility wowee

do you consider godfather or functional equivalents that return opposite boolean results to a straightforward cop variant to be bastard and if so why?

[Makhaira]

The motivation was to add credibility to the idea that I had an in-game result on bessie.

through fake AtE? faustian bargain

I didn't think of it as AtE. A couple of people said they believed if I had a real result, I would have held onto it instead of outting it immediately. Being excited about the result seems like a reasonable reason I would have failed to do that.

do you not consider excitement to be an emotion?

[Seven]

through fake AtE? faustian bargain

I didn't think of it as AtE. A couple of people said they believed if I had a real result, I would have held onto it instead of outting it immediately. Being excited about the result seems like a reasonable reason I would have failed to do that.

do you not consider excitement to be an emotion?

The E isn't the reason why I don't believe it to be AtE.

[Makhaira]

Ha, I have a guilty result on bessie.

Vote: bessie

No, you don't.

Vote: Seven

Bessie please explain the rationale behind this reaction and vote in detail

[Makhaira]

I didn't think of it as AtE. A couple of people said they believed if I had a real result, I would have held onto it instead of outting it immediately. Being excited about the result seems like a reasonable reason I would have failed to do that.

do you not consider excitement to be an emotion?

The E isn't the reason why I don't believe it to be AtE.

enlighten me

[Makhaira]

Wam and Seven's claims directly contradict each other. No way both can be telling the truth. I can verify Wam at least is telling the truth about his result on me. Based on this, Seven seemed to know that Wam had a result on him, and doesn't seem to be pushing back against Wam contradicting him, so I think the most likely conclusion and the most consistent with Seven's meta in particular is that Seven is lying Town.

I don't think that Wam is likely to be scum here, though I did seem him claim a clear on someone who was Town as mafia before (Stellaris, I think it was).

I don't care for bessie's reaction to this and will need to spend some time rereading her. If she is scum it has been a long while since she has snowed me so completely, but I suppose I can't rule it out.

How does town!Seven (who is also a VT in this world) know for sure that Wam is town that town!Wam has confirmation that Seven is in fact town at the point Seven made the linked post?

[Seven]

do you not consider excitement to be an emotion?

The E isn't the reason why I don't believe it to be AtE.

enlighten me

An appeal to emotion is attempting to sway others by provoking an emotional reaction. Using a word that describes an emotional state is not an emotional appeal in itself. It could be used to make one, however. For example:

"It aggravated me when bessie ate my chocolate bar" vs "I am disgusted by the recent rise of dog- and cat-eating immigrants! Are you with me my fellow Americans!?"

[Seven]

Wam and Seven's claims directly contradict each other. No way both can be telling the truth. I can verify Wam at least is telling the truth about his result on me. Based on this, Seven seemed to know that Wam had a result on him, and doesn't seem to be pushing back against Wam contradicting him, so I think the most likely conclusion and the most consistent with Seven's meta in particular is that Seven is lying Town.

I don't think that Wam is likely to be scum here, though I did seem him claim a clear on someone who was Town as mafia before (Stellaris, I think it was).

I don't care for bessie's reaction to this and will need to spend some time rereading her. If she is scum it has been a long while since she has snowed me so completely, but I suppose I can't rule it out.

How does town!Seven (who is also a VT in this world) know for sure that Wam is town that town!Wam has confirmation that Seven is in fact town at the point Seven made the linked post?

Would you like an answer, or do you specifically want it from Thea?

[Seven]

Wam - town
Seven - town
Thea - town

If Wam were a scum VT cop, it would be unideal for him to claim toDay as he would be expected to die during the night. I am therefore comfortable assuming toDay then that Wam is Town.

A Vanilla Cop is a weaker Role Cop that receives a Vanilla result on Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons, and a non-vanilla result on all PR roles. An argument could made that a Godfather should be read as vanilla; however, I believe the logical interpretation of the role is that it would be read as non-vanilla. Typically a Godfather is a role that receives a favorable result regarding the player's alignment no its role. For example, a normal role cop should read a Godfather as a 'Godfather'. Vanilla is a role, not an alignment.

Wam is a Vanilla Town Cop. It checks both the role and alignment of a player. This is stronger than a Vanilla Cop because he is able to distinguish between Vanilla Townies and Mafia Goons. The key thing about this is that it is an 'AND' check. In order to receive a 'Vanilla Town' result, the player's role must be read as Vanilla and their alignment must be read as Town. As with a Vanilla Cop, therefore, a Godfather would not provide a "Vanilla Town" result as it would fail the first half of the check. Therefore, unless someone has another role in mind that would have manipulated Wam's results, they can likely be trusted. Therefore, both Thea and Seven are Town. Edit: bessie has proposed redirector or bus driver. See my response here. Additional point: A redirector would be incongruous with EGW's role, and so unlikely to exist in this setup. Edit: Wam has confirmed that the results are not redirected or bus driven here.

---

Madge - town

I think Madge's play today regarding the guilty result on bessie is town-indicative. I am considering two scenarios, scum!Madge with town!bessie and scum!Madge with scum!bessie. In town!bessie scenario, I don't think it is likely for Madge to have come up with thoughts like these:

@everyone: did anyone receive some sort of night action result on N1?

[snip]

Speculation: wam could be scum rolecop (is it bad that I love the little image in my head of scum!wam freaking out about a copped vanilla townie has a guilty result)

Seven-Bessie-Wam in one section:
- I don't think it makes sense for town!Seven to gambit killing bessie, she didn't scumread her that much did she? Like I could see a universe in which I see someone as so scummy that I fake a result so people will listen to me and vote them, but this is not what Seven had for bessie. The closest I could see is if Seven had some other night result (e.g. saw bessie visit EGW) and wants to avoid claiming her real power.
- Wam as town would do what he did
- Wam, as scum protecting bessie, would not risk claiming Thea is VT when Thea could easily contradict that (nb: maybe scum does have this actual power, or a rolecop, and knows Thea is VT). However, it would have the same issue: if Seven flips town, then Wam flips scum, and Bessie will also be killed. This makes two scum for one town, which seems excessive. That said - wam is claiming that Seven is vanilla town, so isn't actually trying to get Seven voted out, just trying to save Bessie. So I should probably re-analyse that.

Speculation: perhaps there's a cop who sends results (there was one in B99), and Seven received a result.

Speculation: wam could be scum rolecop (is it bad that I love the little image in my head of scum!wam freaking out about a copped vanilla townie has a guilty result)

I'm trying to figure out the mechanically optimal vote out. I agree we want the elim with best odds. My brain is feeling very soupy now and I need to get some work done, but I hope to come back in 4-5 hours.

Looking through the posts, I can't actually discount a scum!Madge/scum!bessie scenario. Scum!Madge would know that it was possible that I did have a genuine result on bessie and thus would be liable to have the speculations about Amnesia/JoAt/Tracker as she had. That being said, I think her speculation surrounding Wam's alignment and motivations likely stem from a town mindset. Her progression through her thoughts on Wam's claim are written in a way as if coming from a genuine stream of consciousness. This also resonates as genuine:

but I CAN'T

Fred - town

Fred's first game playing mafia was Millerizer Mafia, a game with an open setup and unique 3rd party-role. Fred's second game was Sorcerer's 11, a game with an open set-up and unique roles. Fred's 3rd game was Pick Your Poison, a semi-open setup with unique mechanics. Prior to this, he also entered AI mafia but replaced out at the beginning. I bring these up to put this post into context:

do mafia have daychat? it's probably in the rules which i did read ut didn't memorise.

The rules are a general ruleset with allowances for daychat but we don't even have a confirmation that there are actual scum.The rules are the vaguest on actual mechanics that I have ever seen. It's either that this game is entirely vanilla, or Adum is hiding a big stinker (wth is the name for one of those games?) (also I always phone it in until I do my in-depth analysis)

All Fred has seen up until now are open setups, generally with unique mechanics laid out. This is unconventional from how most players have entered the mafia scene, through Newbie games with Normal setups (mostly VT with a couple of PRs). He has yet to experience a closed setup, leading to his confusion at the start about whether there is even scum in the game. Additionally, due to this lack of experience with a closed setup, I do not believe that scum!Fred would have had the insight necessary to fake a line like this: "It's either that this game is entirely vanilla, or Adum is hiding a big stinker (wth is the name for one of those games?)"


That leaves these four:

Moody - ?
Somi/Santy - ?
JC - ?
Bessie - ?

I believe we probably have a ML so we could just eliminate all 4. I do want to try and make a hit today though.

I do not think the team is not Somanti/Moody/JC because of somi's post here:

EBWOP:
I think JC has actually posted more than Heury, but maybe I'm nitpicking. Still, seems like a slightly odd distinction

(I should not be trying to post from work)

Just did a quick count, and it's JC 11, heury 5. What I noticed most about heury's posts were the fluffiness, although it looks like his last one included reads.

It is unlikely that scum!somi would bring attention to a possible partner tell between his partners.

Therefore, it can be concluded that bessie is at least one of the scum.

Vote: bessie

[Seven]

not* its role

[Freddino18]

you mind putting that correction in context?

[Seven]

EBWOP: I do not think the team is Somanti/Moody/JC

There's some other typos but the double negative here was potentially a cause for confusion.