Are we human or are we dancer mafia (game over, Dancers win!)

[Seven]

Very helpful thank you! So Seven is confirming they are in fact VT and Wams result is correct? Has Thea also confirmed this?

Yes.

the fact that you were literally just here and are not answering my extremely key and simple question is bothering me lol

I was thinking and typing.

[Seven]

Has anyone here ever played with scum!Santy before? or even at all regardless of alignment?

I've seen him play as scum. Swiss/Fonti level essentially.

[Makhaira]

Seven what is the exact solve Wam lying about his claim implies (there is only one correct answer)

There isn't. The only player it would implicate is Thea. The third would be up in the air.

Seven claiming a result on bessie would be unecessary if Wam was just going to contradict them, so Wam/Seven are unpaired. Wam claiming at that point would implicate scum bessie. Since he knew Seven was a VT and couldn't have had a result on bessie, he could save bessie from an elimination on false grounds. However, the more straightforward way to do this would simply be to claim a VT result on bessie. It is highly unlikely scum!wam is paired with scum!bessie for this reason. Scum!Wam would, however, likely have at least one of his results be on a scummate, pairing him with Thea.

all three implied mates have engaged in some mutual undermining, and you say this is implausible coordination?

[Makhaira]

Has anyone here ever played with scum!Santy before? or even at all regardless of alignment?

I've seen him play as scum. Swiss/Fonti level essentially.

keen take

[Seven]

Seven what is the exact solve Wam lying about his claim implies (there is only one correct answer)

There isn't. The only player it would implicate is Thea. The third would be up in the air.

Seven claiming a result on bessie would be unecessary if Wam was just going to contradict them, so Wam/Seven are unpaired. Wam claiming at that point would implicate scum bessie. Since he knew Seven was a VT and couldn't have had a result on bessie, he could save bessie from an elimination on false grounds. However, the more straightforward way to do this would simply be to claim a VT result on bessie. It is highly unlikely scum!wam is paired with scum!bessie for this reason. Scum!Wam would, however, likely have at least one of his results be on a scummate, pairing him with Thea.

all three implied mates have engaged in some mutual undermining, and you say this is implausible coordination?

Yes.

[Makhaira]

Has anyone here ever played with scum!Santy before? or even at all regardless of alignment?

I've seen him play as scum. Swiss/Fonti level essentially.

keen take

[Freddino18]

how do swiss and Fonti play?

[Makhaira]

Seven I need an answer to my question about staking the game on bessie now

[Makhaira]

how do swiss and Fonti play?

the question is less how do they play and rather how can they play, its a range thing, youll understand when youre older

[Seven]

how do swiss and Fonti play?

While I'm on the topic, you all should know that Santy is an S-Class player. He mentioned that we were in champs final together—there's a reason for it.

[Seven]

Seven I need an answer to my question about staking the game on bessie now

What's the question? Apologies, I am trying to keep up while working on my own thing.

[Seven]

Oh found it. I can't give an answer right now, but will when I'm done working through world views.

[bessie]

Daily bark is a bit late because I worked late and I was too tired to cook so we went out for dinner.

I feel like everyone agrees that it's either Bessie and Wam or me and Seven, with various others being posited as the third partner in both groups. Either one of those groups is right, or someone plays a damn good fiddle. Personally, I don't think anyone here is part of the Charlie Daniels Band. We all know who's voting who, so let's just get it over with. I will be at an event EOD, and may or may not be able to post at deadline.

Who is suspecting me and Wam? I think people are only suspecting me.
And interesting that you are pushing for a quick elim. Just like Seven.

JC: I'm reading through your case around Seven and is your position that Seven baited Wam into claiming that Seven was a VT in order to give Seven credibility as a VT? What? I really don't understand. Okay, so you clarify that Seve nis scum godfather in your situation, then all this makes sense I guess?

For the record, a Godfather would not show up as "Vanilla Town" to a Vanilla Town cop. (Unless wam received clarification that it would). It is an illogical interpretation of the role and I believe Adum would see it as such.

@Madge
@bessie, given the above, what exactly is the "manipulation" that you believe took place.

There could be a redirector or bus driver.

Vote: Extension

Weren’t you just pushing to end day?

Wam is also pushing really hard that Bessie is town, and has been pushing at me and Sev as the alternative. Little bit of pressure on Seven from Somi, and the rest I do not remember well enough to say.

This is totally incorrect. Wam has claimed a town result on Seven, and Wam claims that he believes his result to be true.

I am specifically curious why you think that Wam's result was manipulated, rather than that Wam's result is correct and Seven is lying Town. This is the simplest explanation that is sufficient to explain all of the data. It's weird that your default assumption is that this is some sort of a scum power play against you rather than Seven doing Seven things. What's your working theory for why scum!Seven would behave this way?

If you have a specific role-related reason why you believe Wam's result is manipulated, I'd strongly encourage you to share it.

I think Wam’s result was manipulated because I think Seven lying scum. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Hmm, I was thinking about this, and I think the problem is that you are not seeing my point of view. You are looking at it like one of town!Seven’s gambits because you don’t know either of our alignments. Conversely, I do know one of our alignments, and am using my knowledge of one to formshape my theories of the alignment of the other.

I have no specific role-related reason to believe Wam’s Seven result was manipulated. Ot that Wam’s result on you was manipulated. Is that the information for which you were fishing?

@Seven: Don't weasel unless it's to actually clarify beyond what my questions anticipate. Is this result you have on bessie a) an actual bona fide in-game investigation result of some sort, or b) is it your way of claiming your Very Accurate Read? If a), is the investigation unambiguous (e.g. 'bessie is scum' or 'bessie and heury are incompatible alignments') or is it ambiguous (e.g. 'bessie was the only one who visited EGW last night', given scum could have a ninja?)

b, I don't have a bona fide in-game investigation result. I came to the conclusion that bessie is scum during N2.

Do you have any actual analysis to support this read? Or not, and that’s the reason you faked a result?

Wam was going to claim regardless, unfortunately. George's legacy made it so that I was going to be the focus today, and Wam was eventually going to have to claim in order to save me. Part of my goal was to disrupt that timeline, but alas.

Noting this for now.


Re: extension. I’m not against an extension but that would put deadline on Saturday night for me and I don’t think I will be home.

Ninja’d by most of page 60 while I was typing this out. Will read.

[Seven]

There isn't. The only player it would implicate is Thea. The third would be up in the air.

Seven claiming a result on bessie would be unecessary if Wam was just going to contradict them, so Wam/Seven are unpaired. Wam claiming at that point would implicate scum bessie. Since he knew Seven was a VT and couldn't have had a result on bessie, he could save bessie from an elimination on false grounds. However, the more straightforward way to do this would simply be to claim a VT result on bessie. It is highly unlikely scum!wam is paired with scum!bessie for this reason. Scum!Wam would, however, likely have at least one of his results be on a scummate, pairing him with Thea.

all three implied mates have engaged in some mutual undermining, and you say this is implausible coordination?

Yes.

I change my mind on this. Wam/bessie/Seven would be feasible if it were a Day later.

[Makhaira]

Oh found it. I can't give an answer right now, but will when I'm done working through world views.

gonna be real its kind unfair to ask for more time to explain this read or rework it when you came out of the gate swinging and fake claiming a result on her just to gain extreme initiative in wagon direction this phase

Like we are too close to deadline to be second guessing this move so I need to succinctly know the rationale for such a drastic play

Also if this was a self confirmed town!seven gambit, how does that impact your read of bessie correctly guessing your gambit as such and then proceeding to vote you?

[Freddino18]

I feel like everyone agrees that it's either Bessie and Wam or me and Seven, with various others being posited as the third partner in both groups. Either one of those groups is right, or someone plays a damn good fiddle. Personally, I don't think anyone here is part of the Charlie Daniels Band. We all know who's voting who, so let's just get it over with. I will be at an event EOD, and may or may not be able to post at deadline.

And interesting that you are pushing for a quick elim. Just like Seven.

Vote: Extension

Weren’t you just pushing to end day?

I am pushing to be here EOD, which means earlier or later, I care not which.

[Seven]

JC: I'm reading through your case around Seven and is your position that Seven baited Wam into claiming that Seven was a VT in order to give Seven credibility as a VT? What? I really don't understand. Okay, so you clarify that Seve nis scum godfather in your situation, then all this makes sense I guess?

For the record, a Godfather would not show up as "Vanilla Town" to a Vanilla Town cop. (Unless wam received clarification that it would). It is an illogical interpretation of the role and I believe Adum would see it as such.

@Madge
@bessie, given the above, what exactly is the "manipulation" that you believe took place.

There could be a redirector or bus driver.

Thank you, these are feasible.

However, the probability that Wam was targeted by a redirector N1 is 12.5%. This is lower if there are less than 3 mafia. A bus-driven Seven cannot be discounted. However, given the flipped PRs and the fact that VT Cop inherently has a balancing mechanism (false positives from PRs), it is unlikely to exist in this setup. Logic dictates that I am unlikely scum, and therefore your vote is illogical. Is it that you are emotionally tied to it?

[Seven]

Oh found it. I can't give an answer right now, but will when I'm done working through world views.

gonna be real its kind unfair to ask for more time to explain this read or rework it when you came out of the gate swinging and fake claiming a result on her just to gain extreme initiative in wagon direction this phase

Like we are too close to deadline to be second guessing this move so I need to succinctly know the rationale for such a drastic play

Also if this was a self confirmed town!seven gambit, how does that impact your read of bessie correctly guessing your gambit as such and then proceeding to vote you?

She would have believed it was a gambit regardless of her alignment and regardless of whether I did, in fact, have a result on her. As a comparison, she didn't believe you were actually a PGO in Baldur's Gate when you claimed it.

Currently, I am voting Santy as I believe he has the highest chance to be mafia. I'll have a final post by the end of tonight with my thoughts laid out since I won't be here tomorrow.

[Makhaira]

Is Mak a slot that is scary lategame ? As in, how likely was Mak a fearkill ? (I dont think it wasnt the case, but dont have the meta to be sure and affirm it lol)

being real with you, if anyone in this game answered this question with "no" then I would highly doubt their sincerity as arrogant and self serving of a statement that might seem

but relatedly

Has anyone here ever played with scum!Santy before? or even at all regardless of alignment?

I've seen him play as scum. Swiss/Fonti level essentially.

Do you understand the gravity of this statement and if so please explain it in your own words

[Makhaira]

to be clear the question in the above post is directed specifically to Santy, Seven do not answer or expound at all

[Makhaira]

She would have believed it was a gambit regardless of her alignment and regardless of whether I did, in fact, have a result on her. As a comparison, she didn't believe you were actually a PGO in Baldur's Gate when you claimed it.

more directly why did she vote you if that was a bona fide belief that is NAI

[Wam]

The confirmation I was waiting for at ghe beginning of the day was around how the results were presented. I got "seven is" in the result and I confirmed with the mod this means no redirect

[Seven]

She would have believed it was a gambit regardless of her alignment and regardless of whether I did, in fact, have a result on her. As a comparison, she didn't believe you were actually a PGO in Baldur's Gate when you claimed it.

more directly why did she vote you if that was a bona fide belief that is NAI

Either an emotional reaction or she is scum, most likely the latter.

[JC_DADDY25]

The confirmation I was waiting for at ghe beginning of the day was around how the results were presented. I got "seven is" in the result and I confirmed with the mod this means no redirect

Is that different from the way it was presented for Thea?

[Makhaira]

Okay, scum teams. My reads have been crap this game (followed two of my scummier reads to miselim twice), but based on them I would have {Fred, somi/Santy, Madge} or {Fred, somi/Santy, JC}. My townier reads are saying Seven is scum, so I have to decide if I put trust in them ahead of my own shaky impression of the state of the game.

My reads are also crap lol. If Bessie flips scum, I'm going after JC next.

Vote: Bessie

why scum!JC if scum! bessie?