Are we human or are we dancer mafia (game over, Dancers win!)

[Freddino18]

ah, bastard was the word I was looking for.

[EGW]

Seven, you're going to need to re-evaluate your reads. I think we are in a tougher game than we thought.

[Seven]

Vote: No Extension

Extensions are unfair—particularly publicly voted extensions—and in this case, unnecessary.

This post pings me. From the opening post:

2. Up to 3 deadline extensions may be granted for up to 48 hours, first will require a simple majority of players, 2nd 2/3rds, then unanimous. Requests for deadline extensions must be done in thread as follows "vote: deadline extensions"

Requests for extensions are fair according to the game rules, and are to be made publicly by voting in-thread.

I am aware extensions are in the rules. Being in the rules is not equivalent to being fair. It is something I've thought a lot about in my games. Mafia often play in a way specific to the deadline being what it is. Extending the phase undercuts their strategy and advantages town. I was extremely grateful to LaserGuy not allowing slacking town to extend the final day deadline for this reason. Making it publically votable forces mafia to vote for the extension in order to not be outted. For that reason, I will always be voting against an extension, so that mafia have an opportunity to avoid it. That being said, there are situations where extensions are warranted due to irl complications or replacements, so some leeway is necessary. I generally go about this through private requests, private votes, mod discretion, or role quirks.

[Seven]

Ok Bessie is town.

Seven, you're going to need to re-evaluate your reads. I think we are in a tougher game than we thought.

What led you to these conclusions?

[EGW]

All in due time Seven. You shall see soon. I'm working on a reads list.

[moody7277]

bessie-- first post where some people are seeing a claim is not a claim, it's just her describing her playstyle. second post with her doing absolutely serious confirmation post stuff, only somi and Madge pass with everyone else no better than neutral.

1. You misread my opening post. I interpreted the explanation point as town lean, not scum lean.

Just to put this to bed, I did see that you read Thea as town based off the confirm, it's just that goes against the exclamation point=scum meme that I remember. Interactions with other players show nothing out of the ordinary. Rating: +1

EGW-- RV Fred, couple of pokes at Seven, using Thea's other name, votes Madge, thwart's Bessie's confirmation analysis, has different theory about Seven than Thea, read on Madge weakens so he unvotes, suspicious of Glue's timing on his first post, also sus of wam (Cynical View is curious about him picking the heretofore lurkers.) Asking for uncertain players to proxy with him, motivated by majority to elim rule (which is a source of so much stomach acid). Rating +1

Fred-- RV EGW with comedy, revokes it after getting response by Mak, worried about people not being "on theme", some rule spec, doesn't like EGW proxying people, votes EGW for real. I liked the looseness at first, but at this point he's staying a little fluffy. Rating: +1

Glue-- first post just after asking for him to be prodded (which I do agree with EGW is odd), immediately votes Madge. Rating: -1

heury-- likes somi, EGW, and Madge reactions to posts, couple of other fluffy bits. Rating: -0.5

JC-- afk message, insufficient data

Madge-- positively giddy, votes EGW, thin reads list, unvotes EGW after saying it is semi-RV, setup spec, ratings based on activity, seems to want to elim lurkers. Rating: +0.5

Mak-- RV wam, pointed questions to several players, grumpy about lurkers, asks about Fred's vote change, how Seven thinks I'm polarized (which TBH surprised me as well), Seven showing no follow through on their solve, puts up votables list, votes me. Lots of scumhunting here, rating +2.5

Seven-- no link with Thea and Madge, confident that EGW is scum, votes him, thinks I'm scum too, and that me liking Fred makes him the third, votes wam (not in Seven's solve) for his reads post, no extension, weakens read on Fred after asked by wam. Rating: -0.5

somi-- RV Seven, likes the opening moves, comments on a few players posts, questions heury's post ratings, unvotes Seven, against lurker elim, debate with Mak over how closely somi was reading the thread. Rating: +1.5

Thea-- asks Bessie about her read on Madge and somi, EGW slightly town, corrects somi on interpreting reads and gives slight scum read, reaction to EGW's read on Madge

Here's the post I've been working the most re Thea and Seven. Inasmuch as I think of Thea as town, this post would force me to think of Seven as town as well, but based on my read above I don't have that certainty, which either means I'm getting snowed (meh) or a small chance they're scummates together (yikes).

reading Fred, Madge and Mak as town, votes me, dislikes EGW going after low content slots, wants extension. Rating: +1

wam-- controversial reads list with some duplication, votes Seven, explains EGW read as evolving from town to scum, switches vote to Glue, questions Seven about voting him despite having a 3-person scum team in mind, doesn't like Madge's mod question. Rating: +0.5

Which means, quoting SDK, my vote on Glue is now real.

[madge]

good news: i might be online at deadline after all

bad news: it's because i'm home from work sick today, which means that my brain is not operating on all cylinders. i struggle on D1 at the best of times

worse news: the meeting at work tomorrow is catered so i'd miss out on a free lunch by being sick tomorrow

@Madge, mountainous refers to games where everyone is vanilla. Is that what you meant?

No, but thank you. I htought it was the opposite of role madness, where there's only a couple of power roles. (I could have looked that up too I guess but I didn't because as somi said you're all luccky to be playing with me )

@moody: you're doing a great job pretending to be shocked that i am basing my d1 reads on pure vibes. NEXT!

@seven: i gotta admit i got a smooth brain but why are you explicitly doing something that you think will help mafia because uh? is this just a meta sanctity of the game thing or?

I feel pretty strongly that we should eliminate the lurkers/etc because in my experience they're the least FUN to play with (and this isn't calling out specific people, it's more that some people lurk more in some games than others, likely due to random life shit/etc).

i would rather have twice as much FUN than improve my winning chances by 0.37%, lol

[madge]

i want to be clear because i think my last paragraphs are not: i disagree, i think low activity is a refuge for scum, and the arguments in opposition of that aren't convincing to me and i think at best indicate it's a wash

i have very traumatic(not really) memories of ending up on the final day with people who can't manage to get a post out often enough to discuss the outcome and feel disengaged/etc and i'd rather avoid that because it's not fun and also it's very hard in that situation to get an actual read.

this is ironically why i only sign up as replacement these days, i have seen so many games go to shit because one player has the llama grooming convention during the game week and keeps on playing with VLA because the alternative is modkilling their slot which is even less fun. i think this is why i am stuck on this (also it's d1 and what the hell else is ther to discuss)

[Seven]

@seven: i gotta admit i got a smooth brain but why are you explicitly doing something that you think will help mafia because uh? is this just a meta sanctity of the game thing or?

https://youtu.be/r5s_UE6WCDU?si=eH7Ld6qSOV-udkmY

[EGW]

Reads

Seven - Solid beginning. Scumhunts from the start, and lack of posting is similar to town play where he holds his cards. Most likely town if his cards laid out make sense from a town perspective, which I think will be likely from his recent posting.

Fred - I think he's town for being active and stubborn. His reactions also seem to be that of discovery, he just seems to be weirded out by my play and reacts to it. I think that is a townie nature.

Somitomi - So far, I like that he is active and involved consistently. I feel he's being pushed on by a mistake rather than something indicative of alignment. I also like his response to Thealliezas vote on Moody.

Bessie - I had her at null until just now. Her post was solid in terms of content, which was my concern until now. I like her response to Mak's read on me, and her reaction to Wam's read list. I think anyone that's town will react naturally to his reads list. Only thing is she's wrong on Seven.

Madge - As stated before, I thought her reaction to my pressure was that of townie frustration. In the game where she was third party scum, she was composed.

Moody - I think I appreciate his reads, but think he is quite wrong. I don't blame him, for example his read of Mak, Mak *seems* to be scumhunting, but not actually scumhunting. Anyway, I think I'll put Moody at null - town. I didn't get any scum pings from him and I like the reads so far.

----------------------

Wam - Pretty much the same reasoning as before. His reads list is fake.

Mak - Let's begin with his first non-confirm post. It feels off, excited to go. Feels a tad forced, to prevent a thunder dome to his slot compared to the previous game. Maks next post, seems like trying to talk about my early game post and get others talking about me in a bad light, without a direct thought of his own. His harping on Somi for making a mistake yet giving Wam the benefit of the doubt pings me. His questioning to Seven seems odd to me, not sure where he stands with me but seems like he's asking to put me in a bad light. Overall, doesn't seem to be looking for actual scum intent, and instead just game play error.

Theaaalieza - First thing to note is his focus on Somi's error. Seems like the thing he has advised me to try to avoid. I don't think that should have been his focus for pushing Somi. That just seems unfair. Reading through, I now realize that Thea doesn't seem to have any questioning towards players? Just giving out a read or two, the Seven being the most prominent. With his post towards me, at first I thought maybe it came from a misguided standpoint. However, him saying that my reasoning was forced seems off. I'm not sure how my reasoning can be forced when it wasn't a long exerpt of reasoning. Plus it seems he tacked on the timing to pad his reasoning, when it makes more sense I was waiting for Wam to post content first. (Since I asked the mod to prod Gluelock and Wam, I wanted to see them in thread and see what they do) Then his post asking Seven what he thinks of Wam's town/scum meta, and why the error is alignment indicative. It's odd he's asking this when he's been focusing on Somi's error instead of looking at the rest of their play.

[Theallieza]

I'm eating BBQ so will answer you later Mak. Theaalliza I want you to ask yourself the same question you asked Seven but replace Wam with Somi. Then answer it.

For reference, the question is:

Can you tell me what you think about Wam's town/scum meta? Why is this error alignment indicative one way or the other?
Top

Somi is, IMHO, actually one of the most difficult players on xkcd to read correctly. I have thought I have found solid tells for him in the past, but I've always been disproved on them. He tends to be medium-to-low postcount, so there is little content to analyze, and rarely makes strong reads or aggressive pushes regardless of alignment. He often gets overwhelmed in faster paced games and rarely has a lot of time to analyze deeply. His Town and scum play are very similar and he tends to get eliminated fairly early regardless of alignment, though IMHO as mafia his survivability is noticeably better as he's often a mislem candidate. If he is eliminated early, he is >rand Town; if he is eliminated later in the game he is >rand wolf. He is one of my favourite people to partner with as a wolf. He is dependable and smart and is an excellent teammate. Even when he is eliminated, he never leaves a trail to his partner. I have won at least two games with him as a wolf pair where he was eliminated and Town spent the remainder of the game chasing after all of the false leads he had left behind.

His play so far is basically NAI. There unfortunately isn't enough content to analyze to get a solid read on him one way or the other. FWIW bessie seems to have a decent ability to read him and the type of micro tells that she is good at catching seem to be somewhat reliable at catching him.

[EGW]

Town [EGW > Seven > Fred > Somitomi > Bessie > Madge > Moody | Heury, JC Daddy, Gluelock | Wam > Mak > Theallieza] Scum

Unvote; Vote: Theallieza

[Theallieza]

I don't want to do want until he gets back to post. He's usually pretty easy to sort. Would you do Moody with me?

vote moody

I don't like this, feels a bit like scum probing the waters

Can you elaborate on this?

[EGW]

What led you to these conclusions?

I like her response to Mak and Wam. I think both are scum, therefore I believe she's town Bessie with genuine reactions. The reason why I said I think you should re-evaluate, is because I think Mak and Thea may be scum. With them both being scum, things may be more difficult.

[Theallieza]

Yes, your reasoning for both is terrible and feels very forced. I think getting either player off of null is hard to justify at this stage without a very strong meta tell. The timing that you made this push immediately after I started asking for votes for moody is also interesting.

Ok then. Go into it for me. Why is the reasoning terrible? On timing, I was waiting for Wam to post content as he promised. The underlined feels pretty tacked on as a reason for you to suspect me.

Gluelock has literally no content of value. There is no way that you could actually legitimately have a wolf read on them other than pure PoE. Which, yes, the could be a wolf, but they are very unlikely to be >rand wolf based on the content they have given.

For Wam, I don't really understand how having you twice on his reads list is indicative of anything (such an error is usually a partner tell). Is he paying close attention? No, probably not. Does that mean he is mafia? Not necessarily. I have to check if I received my meta report from Seven before I go into more detail here, but suffice to say this type of error is, at best, NAI for Wam. You don't necessarily need to know Wam's meta, but again, I feel that going after two essentially inactive slots and ignoring the bulk of the game's content is very questionable to me.

[Theallieza]

This post gives me a weird vibe. I think I'd put a slight scumlean on somi.

I'd like for you to talk about this now. In what way does your reason make Somi scum to you? Is this not an error like you have told me I have pushed for in the past (as my own mistake)? Can it come from town? Why or why not?

I actually already addressed this here. I don't care about the error. I specifically said it was a vibe read.

[Theallieza]

@Seven, I would appreciate a response to this.

[EGW]

Gluelock was already viewing thread and it's been multiple days from both of them without posting. I had more town reads at the time at the top of my head and Gluelock / Wam seemed to be the only suspects for me at the time.

Wam, it's simple. He's been caught faking his reads, which only scum do. No meta required.

[Seven]

@Ran, not bad. The only thing that is for sure not correct there is your read on Alli. Swap Alli for moody and it’s a solid read list.

It nags me that I don’t comprehend how you read me. I didn’t in Baldur’s Gate either. I think I am being more low-key here than there, yet here you seem to be sure I am town but always kept me at the bottom of null there.

[Theallieza]

Theaaalieza - First thing to note is his focus on Somi's error. Seems like the thing he has advised me to try to avoid. I don't think that should have been his focus for pushing Somi. That just seems unfair. Reading through, I now realize that Thea doesn't seem to have any questioning towards players? Just giving out a read or two, the Seven being the most prominent. With his post towards me, at first I thought maybe it came from a misguided standpoint. However, him saying that my reasoning was forced seems off. I'm not sure how my reasoning can be forced when it wasn't a long exerpt of reasoning. Plus it seems he tacked on the timing to pad his reasoning, when it makes more sense I was waiting for Wam to post content first. (Since I asked the mod to prod Gluelock and Wam, I wanted to see them in thread and see what they do) Then his post asking Seven what he thinks of Wam's town/scum meta, and why the error is alignment indicative. It's odd he's asking this when he's been focusing on Somi's error instead of looking at the rest of their play.

Your interpretation of my read on somi is based on a misunderstanding. I have also barely talked about the somi read at all so it is odd that you seem convinced I was focusing on it.

(Just to be clear, I know very well Wam's meta. I am curious what Seven thinks because he is voting for Wam).

I will take it as a compliment that you think my play this game is within my wolf range.

[Seven]

@Seven, I would appreciate a response to this.

This depends on my discussion with Wam.

[EGW]

@Ran, not bad. The only thing that is for sure not correct there is your read on Alli. Swap Alli for moody and it’s a solid read list.

It nags me that I don’t comprehend how you read me. I didn’t in Baldur’s Gate either. I think I am being more low-key here than there, yet here you seem to be sure I am town but always kept me at the bottom of null there.

Alright, talk me through both reads.

Also there, you weren't scumhunting. This game you scumhunted from the beginning. That's the crux of the strength of my read on you here. So you being more low-key compared to Baldur's Gate doesn't hurt my read on you. I just know you have gone low-key as town before, to let the thread breathe, and observe.

[Seven]

@Ran, not bad. The only thing that is for sure not correct there is your read on Alli. Swap Alli for moody and it’s a solid read list.

It nags me that I don’t comprehend how you read me. I didn’t in Baldur’s Gate either. I think I am being more low-key here than there, yet here you seem to be sure I am town but always kept me at the bottom of null there.

Alright, talk me through both reads.

Also there, you weren't scumhunting. This game you scumhunted from the beginning. That's the crux of the strength of my read on you here. So you being more low-key compared to Baldur's Gate doesn't hurt my read on you. I just know you have gone low-key as town before, to let the thread breathe, and observe.

Alli & Laser only ever say 'it's odd' as town. That's not actually where my read comes from, but it just occurred to me and is the simplest thing to write.

Moody doesn't fail to give bessie a +4 or above unless he is scum. This is also not actually where my read comes from, but it just occurred to me and is the simplest thing to write.

[EGW]

Your interpretation of my read on somi is based on a misunderstanding. I have also barely talked about the somi read at all so it is odd that you seem convinced I was focusing on it.

What misunderstanding? Also that's my concern with you. Somi has posted more and you haven't really changed your read after Somi having much more content to read by, and I thought it odd you'd be trying to convince Seven out of Wam when Wam seems to have an actual alignment indicative error.

[EGW]

Alli & Laser only ever say 'it's odd' as town. That's not actually where my read comes from, but it just occurred to me and is the simplest thing to write.

What's important to me is to see Allieza's updated read list. I'll keep that in mind. What pings me is I'm pretty sure Thea has accused me of pushing low-hanging fruit before. I could be wrong though, but this is not the first time it's brought up. Yes I have seen Thea accuse me of weird things, but it's easier to see his enthusiasm compared to here. On Moody, I would like more convincing (your full reasoning).