Pick Your Poison Mafia (Day 2)

[Makhaira]

Seven what is your actual read on Sabrar* rn

[Makhaira]

I think Fred is likely town on meta alone tbh

[EGW]

Votecount 1.6

1. Boomfrog
2. Wam
3. Swiss
4. Mak: Fonti, Seven
5. Fred
6. Madge
7. Seven: JC
8. moody
9. JC:
10. Fonti: Mak
11. bessie: Swiss
12. Sabrar

Not voting:
Boomfrog, Fred, Madge, Moody, Bessie, Sabrar, Wam

Important Links:
Game links and Vote Counts

Notes:
N/A

With 12 players, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.
The deadline for Day 1 is Wednesday 6th, at 11:59PM EST

[Sabrar]

Sabrar what is your read on fonti?

I like how they constantly reevaluated the roles D0. I don't agree with some of their opinion but they gave reasonable explanation. I've especially like this fresh perspective.
D1 they are expressing an opinion on a bunch of players (which again I like) but their main content is their argument with you. I am not impartial here and I think fonti's concerns are legitimate. You are doing exactly what you accuse fonti of, namely twisting their words. You accuse them of saying that you think GF + roleblock are the best roles for scum. That's not what they said. They said that you as scum would have hoped for those roles. And you did claim that exactly.
So overall I have a townlean on fonti.

[Sabrar]

@JC: I would still like you to answer this.

[fontisian]

Yo, I exist.

[continuing where I left off]

For the roles, I don't really have any context as to what's powerful and what isn't, other than the fact that some people seem to really hate Janitor. I feel like the roleblocker is kind of a dick move, but it seems like it can miss.

Tentative vote for
Roleblocker
and
Godfather

Open to suggestions and explanations, especially as to why Janitor is so hated.

Fred, can you explain what you mean by a "dick move?"

I can understand how janitor can disrupt things, but could a one shot do that much damage?

This feels genuine. It could be genuine and still come from scum, but I think the thought process comes from town more often than not. I like the word "damage" in particular.

I agree with this. I don't mind Rolecop as it's the only thing that doesn't interfere with town's actions in any way. Godfather I think should just always be excluded based on there being two roles (three?) that it can interfere with, and discussing the wifom behind whether mafia would choose those roles in hopes that we choose godfather just creates a discussion wherein it's easy for mafia to identify who has those roles. I would probably give 2-shot Roleblocker over Vengeful due to it being just 2 shots. So ultimately, Roleblocker + Rolecop is where I'm probably voting.

So the game scum won previously was janitor/roleblocker, yeah?

I'm curious why you were cool with both roleblocker and rolecop going to scum. Was roleblocker not relevant in that game? And did you not see how rolecop and roleblocker synergize?


I dig the early the enthusiasm from Swiss, and them getting a townread on JC for being "lost."

Am I reading wrong or is my understanding correct that town roles have yet to be assigned and that scum pick town roles after we all lock in the scum roles by vote?

Ah nope just re-read, scum picks town roles in "pregame" which is prior to D0 and they get randomly assigned

I thought it went D0 votes for scum roles happen, then N0 scum picks town roles for random distribution knowing what scum roles have been picked, but yeah its the opposite order so Booms question actually makes sense

This smells like manipulation. Why would you take the time to ask about the rules in the chat, go and check, and then confirm that you were wrong, instead of just checking in the first place? It's performative.

To booms question, I dont see any reason to give town a doctor over a weak doctor as weak doctor seems to only be a strictly worse version of doctor, so that would be pick one. If masonizer dies when targeting non-town roles Id probably pick that too but thats kind of like a higher risk but higher reward cop, so it would be one of those two depending on how confident I was that I could draw a mason target or dodge a cop investigation respectively.

Allowing two docs in gane creates a possibly unwinnable situation for scum if they both claim and protect each other so thats super no bueno imo from a scum perspective and would not want that. So probably would go with Cop as 3rd pick. Vigilante on the wrong player slot is a huge existential risk to a 2 man scum team and can really throw off endgame calculations


So yeah my final picks would prob be masonizer, cop, weak doc, and then hope my team atleast gets a godfather or roleblocker atleast for some counterplay

Also, what is this?

"If masonizer dies when targeting non-town roles." They don't. Makhaira was literally just on the rules page, they could have checked, and they clearly did check how weak doctor works.

Also, also:
"and then hope my team atleast gets a godfather or roleblocker atleast for some counterplay"

Following:

Swiss I am frozenflame as seven covered in impressive detail

Were those MBTI types guesses? Because I consistently get ENTP on those quizzes with I/E and P/J being very borderline and could go the other way (like 55/45), so that was an impressive guess if it was in fact a guess as Im not sure if I ever discussed MBTI type stuff on smashboards, here, or in the discord

Jealous of heury already finishing their full 3 star clear of MK8, need to get on that, the new tracks are super fun

My first impression was that two shot roleblocker and godfather are the best roles to give scum because roleblocked is shooting in the dark unless we claim and godfather is entirely passive and just need to be taken into account when we parse investigation results. Given scum roleblocker with role cope is a huge mistake though as those roles synergize perfectly. So my current inclination is to vote godfather/2 shot RB but Im open to other ideas. Im not sure I entitely understand vengeful mafia though if someone is willing to explain that in greater detail

My dude, why didn't you reconsider what roles to vote for, when you said that scum!you would be hoping for those same roles?

My answer depends on who the scum team are.

If its a steong scum team and can generally appear town as scum I would go for the vig/mason/weak doc combination and hope the weak doc and Mason target scum and take themselves out and the vig hammwrs town.

If the team is weaker and generally appears more suspicious I would go down the vig/doc/masoniser route.

Noting that Wam may be scum if Frozen is scum, because they picked up the same mason misconception.

I was posting stream of consciousness and had no idea at the time that the role descriptions were spoiler tagged and could be shown by clicking the role name, there is no overt spoiler tag indication anywhere on the role list post. I was just punching the role names into the mafia scum wiki to get the descriptions for the roles to check for variants I might not be familier with and otherwise assumed the roles were in their "basic" form. Weak doctor had a clear description on mafiascum wiki that comports directly to how it works in this game as it is a role with little variance. Masonizer had a lot more variance and the version we have in this game does not follow any of the standard variants described on mafia scum wiki. Go look for yourself

none of that was "performative", my misunderstanding of of the order of operations for role assignment was me asking a question hoping someone could give me a direct answer out of laziness and then just saying fuck it Ill just go check


"My dude, why didn't you reconsider what roles to vote for, when you said that scum!you would be hoping for those same roles?"

Alright at this point you are deliberately misunderstanding my posts and misrepresenting my takes, no where did I state that godfather and roleblocker were the best roles for the scum to have from the scum perspective. Ive clearly stated I think janitor is worst for town and that roleblocker is only scary when combo'd with rolecop.

Second time youve done this. And when I called you out for falsely claiming I pushed you for voting rolecop, when I was in fact pushing you for voting janitor, you gave me this nonsense "lol oopsie not gonna explain tho just ISO me kthx!"

uhhhhh I didn't hello?

I went after you for pushing janitor, you know know better


still waiting on the explanation btw

Oh, lol, I misread that.

I've explained it a lot already. I'm phone posting and don't want to go looking. Please iso me instead.

Vote: Fontissian

Re Weak Doc and Masonizer, ok, that makes sense. The Mason dying if they target scum was something I had never heard of before, but I'm also not super familiar with the role.

Re: scum roles, you literally said that if you were scum you'd hope for roleblocker/godfather for counterplay. That's not me putting words in your mouth, that's what you said. Did you mean something else? If so,what did you mean?

It's bizarre to me that you're pushing me for owning that I misread what you were saying re:the rolecop. Your posts are hard to make sense of, so I'm asking questions about them. At the same time, it feels like you aren't reading my posts at all. I've talked at length about why a one shot janitor isn't that threatening of a role to me personally, but that I respect the players here don't have as much experience working without flips. You're characterize me not wanting to go through the inconvenience of quoting old posts for you when I'm on my phone, but you fully have the ability to go and read them yourself.

I find it very irritating to be asked the same questions I've already answered. It implies that you would like me to put in stupid amount of extra time reanswering, when you cannot be bothered to put in a small amount of time reading the posts I've already made.

[fontisian]

I think that was too heated. I'm sorry.

I'm going to take a break. I will be back sometime before the deadline.

[Makhaira]

Sabrar what is your read on fonti?

I like how they constantly reevaluated the roles D0. I don't agree with some of their opinion but they gave reasonable explanation. I've especially like this fresh perspective.
D1 they are expressing an opinion on a bunch of players (which again I like) but their main content is their argument with you. I am not impartial here and I think fonti's concerns are legitimate. You are doing exactly what you accuse fonti of, namely twisting their words. You accuse them of saying that you think GF + roleblock are the best roles for scum. That's not what they said. They said that you as scum would have hoped for those roles. And you did claim that exactly.
So overall I have a townlean on fonti.

im not twisting anything. You both are failing to read the appropriate context

When I was saying 2 shot RB and godfather were my top picks to give scum, that was my initial position just in the context of "which scum roles do I think are the least threatening in a vacuum not knowing what town roles that scum selected

When I said scum!Me "would hope for roleblocker and godfather for counterplay" that was in the specific context of me answering Booms question of what roles I would give town if I were scum.

"So yeah my final picks would prob be masonizer, cop, weak doc, and then hope my team atleast gets a godfather or roleblocker atleast for some counterplay"

Thats the full quote, and it boggles my mind that yall somehow are acting like my first picks for what powers to give the scum from town!Me POV, somehow contradicts me saying that if I were scum and gave town x,y,z roles, I would hope for roles a and b because they would atleast give some counterplay

now the question is are sab and fonti legit confused or just scum skimming

[Makhaira]

Not too heated fonti I dont take any personal offense to anything you said in that reply

Whether you crossed your own personal boundary for heatedness is obv your own thing to decide but Im just letting you know that you didnt upset or offend me in any way, youre allowed to be annoyed by me if think Im being annoying or whatever for asking you to restate things youve already explained but tbh I really dont think you actually did expound on why you didnt think janitor was that bad BEFORE I questioned you on the pick but I need to recheck the chronology of that

[Makhaira]

Counter argument: janitor isn't actually that bad.

It's a one shot, and it cannot target itself (so if we yeet them first, it's a useless role). It doesn't give scum extra kills and it gives our prs more space to maneuver. I think as long as we don't pair it with a godfather (because that would mean losing info from both flips and prs), it's a fine choice.

Also, I retract my suggestion of role blocker and vengeful. I think in combination those two would be really bad in a worst case scenario like the game Xivii described.

I think role blocker and role cop together are also bad. Day role cop in general puts it ahead of normal role cop, and makes it a risky choice, imo.

Janitor and vengeful I think would be a good combo. If we yeet the vengeful, the janitor using their shot would potentially be pointless, because we'd be able to see an extra scum sided shot that night regardless. And it incentivizes scum to bus in an interesting way.

Ok found it youre right you did meaningfully engage with janitor analysis on page two, it was so distanced from your vote for janitor I had forgotten about it

Last paragraph is pretty solid tbh, despite you not addressing the implications of janitor covering their mates flip throughout the post generally, but that also tracks with you saying you have experience with no flip and dont feel particularly hindered by it and makes more sense now that youd feel annoyed being asked to re-explain

Unvote: Fontissian

[Makhaira]

Sabrar what is your read on fonti?

I like how they constantly reevaluated the roles D0. I don't agree with some of their opinion but they gave reasonable explanation. I've especially like this fresh perspective.

do you believe anything about this alternative "mathy" take on the game strategy is alignment indicative in any way? You say its a fresh perspective which you "like." Is that meant to convey you enjoyed the perspective from an academic standpoint or you think this type of perspective on the game, or even as just applied to this setup, is town alignment indicative? If so why

[Makhaira]

@mak few questions apologies if already asked.

How does anyone town aligned think giving scum day rolecop is a good idea like hello?????

What of the other 4 scum roles is more town aligned to give scum?

Why the sudden switch here to rolecop being better than at least 1, only 20 min later.

viewtopic.php?p=57132#p57132

imo the most powerful roles to give scum independant of town PR knowledge are janitor (because I strongly believe the amount of info town loses from no flip is irreplaceable/incomparible to the other ways the competing scum PRs can undermine town scum hunting) and day rolecop (allows scum to narrow the potential PR pool extremely quickly for heightened accuracy on PR targetting with NKs, very potent if combod with 2 shot RB for obvious reasons). All the other scum PRs I see as much more passive. Vengeful is entirely automated, scum have no meaningful way to optimize its use other than simply not letting the venge mafiat be the last one alive. Godfather is entirely passive and relies on town players wanting to target the godfather slot which they can only influence so much. 2 shot RB only becomes good if combod with day cop or once we start really claiming, at which point its probably too late to gain a real advantage.

I didnt switch up on anything, ive been consistent in saying janitor and day cop are the worst roles to give the entire time

[Makhaira]

@Swiss I though Booms townslip was him overtly stating that his objection to janitor is grounded in his personal heavy reliance on flips for scumhunting. Seemed to be a legitimate bleeding of his town POV into the post as he legitimately seemed to feel like his own ability to play well this game would be impacted by a no flip. Id expect scum!Boom to take a more objective approach and say something to the effect of "losing flips objective hurts towns chances because flip are one of the richest sources of info for town to parse connections with other slots, etc etc" not personalize the potential loss

[JC_DADDY25]

Well, the rolecop gives the roleblocker an advantage they didn't have before, in that now they don't have to use it blindly. There is probably 2 or 3 mafia on that vote.

How does the second sentence follow logically from the first? It was not at all assured that scum would get RB as well.

It doesn't, I just felt there was 2 or 3 mafia on that vote.

[JC_DADDY25]

JC gonna be useless all game can already tell

This is probably true.

[madge]

If you were scum, and you knew someone was a pr, would you push to yeet them?

I wouldn't, like, push a yeet on a town PR who has a bunch of town cred but I'd be very inclined on D2 to vote for the known doctor if there's two townies to choose between

You could have just quoted your old answer too btw, this is being unhelpful for literally no reason if youre town, defensive and afraid of slipping up if scum

I was honestly a bit grumpy that I already wrote up an answer to your question and you evidently weren't inclined to take the time to read it at the time. I don't post a lot, and this post was like 3 posts further down the thread after Sabrar asked me to clarify. Here it is, though, behind a spoiler. Note I believe I walked some of this stuff back shortly after.

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

@madge: could you please describe with your own words what the Janitor role does and why it's impact on the game is small/high?

basically the janitor can prevent the end of day elimination flipping (i.e. rolename/alignment revealing). from my post this morning it seems to be a real double-edged sword.

it has the potential to be completely irrelevant: like, in the event we happen to vote them off D1 - but that is of course equally true for any scum role (except the rolecop), but the fact it has one shot means that if they don't use it D1 if we vote them off D2 then it didn't do anything. on the flipside, say they use it d1, that means they are effectively a vanilla goon after (yes, after something Very Bad, but nonethelses!). compare that to the rolecop/godfather who could cause us problems every day of a potentially, what, 5 day game?

of course, the fact it has a potential to be completely irrelevant also means that it's a powerful role because of your precious "game balance" and "giving each faction an equal chance to win" and "not putting things in a setup just because they are FUN". it means that we lose information: if they janitor scum, then we're robbed the chance to definitively look for links. if they janitor town, then we might look for links that don't exist, or we won't know if a townie PR was killed or not (this, of course, synergises with some scum roles in obvious ways), which will give us problems in attempting to speculate about the setup (i.e. if scum chose for town to get role A, it means they probably didn't also choose role B), and also gives scum some opportunities that i would rather they didn't have

all in all, the idea of giving them limited-use powers seems logical to me. 2-shot roleblocker + 1-shot janitor actually seems like one of the less scary combos.

but the risk of janitor is very high so i support not including it. i've got pretty weak opinions on this whole thing.

The rest of the stuff has slid off my brain and I've got a busy day. At the moment I am inclined to sheep Sabrar and Seven and I am super OMGUSy at Mak.

[Freddino18]

how am i the only person to have read the fucking set up

I did too, what I have issues with is this wall of thet

[Freddino18]

@Swiss: please next time just link to the posts instead of quoting the whole thing. It makes it so much more readable.

This. PLEASE.

[bessie]

Daily bark!
Pre-post edit: I only made it through page 12 but I'm a little busy and will need to finish later.

Wow that was way off. Guess it was Wam and Fonti for voting Godfather and Janitor. I know I had a reason for doubting you but now I have no clue why. Tight for time right now, will read back through today or tomorrow with more specific questioning

How is this coming along? Did you figure out why you suspect me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundament ... tion_error

well!.PNG (97.53 KiB) Viewed 156444 times

One day I'm going to convince you of my view on the preposition argument.

How about...no?

I have the same concern with you as you have with me. Unlike me, however, I think you actually are someone who makes themselves aware of the details before posting. You seem to always read over all of the rules in a game and often notice information that others have glanced past. Would you say that's accurate?

Yes.

For that reason, there are two things I have found odd in your content this game:

1) Your misinterpretation of the Janitor
2) Your misconception that town only received two PRs

I initially took number one as you being one of the players who weren't aware you could click the role names, and so had missed that the Janitor was different than normal. Given your answer above, my second theory is that the misinterpretation stemmed from the word "elimination." That is one thing I did change about the setup description, replacement of any instance of the word "lynch" with "elimination." I suspect that you initially interpreted the word as being synonymous with "night kill"?

This is exactly what happened, and I thought that was haw I wrote it up in my reply to Sabrar, but checking back I didn’t have that explanation in my post. My little puppy brain mixed up “elimination” with “night kill”.

As for number 2, I have no explanation. Would you say that you having missed that is out of character?

Yes.

Bessie what's the value to you in an FoS?
+ for using it after i openly said its useless

I don’t vote until I am serious. I have discussed this many many times and probably even in previous games I have played with you (too busy to find a link right now maybe Zen has one). When I vote, it will be a serious vote that I probably won’t move. It’s my meta, and old xkcd forum meta. I also use it as shorthand to indicate something pinged me, and to come back to it later.

Bessie is not playing, at all, as I expected her to. Same as Zen. She's more cautious, less amenable and less reasonable imo.

I don’t agree with “amenable”.

This is crazy. FoS for asking someone their reasoning because i haven't yet done it. Stifles discussion and an easy way to throw barbs at me - which I think she's only doing because I've called it that her vibe is off. ESPECIALLY since she knew i was out of the country, with low activity, and openly recognised that I hadnt gone more into detail on her. Feels OMGUSY (oh my god you suck for voting me)

No. This is a very reasonable point and you deserve an FoS for it. I did not stifle discussion, nor discourage Sabrar from answering your question. Yes I think it is suspicious for someone to make a pattern of asking others for reads but not providing their own. Why are you so upset about having someone express suspicion of you? I did not vote for you, I used my FoS to note something so I wouldn’t forget it.


Middle of Page 12. Back later.

[Freddino18]

I think Fred is likely town on meta alone tbh

What meta? That I'm annoyed by the need to read?

[bessie]

Bark Part II.

"On this forum we love talking about setup and mechanics. And it’s D0 so we aren’t eliminating today anyway. And we should always have lots of talking."
Talking about *what* Bessie

On D1, I think anything and everything is important, and might hide a clue. I have pondered many many many times that everything needed to solve the game is in the D1 content, if only I could be smart enough to see it.

"Swiss wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 10:46 am
@mod why did Huery replace
Noting this for now, because I think it is odd you would ask this."

Crazy to me. Why would you 1) care that I asked and 2) have an opinion on it

Because it pinged me, and I either can’t or I am not ready to put it in to words yet.

"Seven posted his first. How was I going to follow that?
I have given you my opinions of everyone’s strengths and weaknesses as a player. If you have any specific questions ask me, otherwise I don’t know what you’re expecting."

As I mentioned, this is defensive.
Dislike

Hmmm. Perhaps it is your interpretation. Instead of reading it in your mind with an aggressive tone, why don’t you try a different tone? I suggest the following:
Seven posted his first. How was I going to follow that? [Lighthearted mockery.]
I have given you my opinions of everyone’s strengths and weaknesses as a player. If you have any specific questions ask me, otherwise I don’t know what you’re expecting. [Curious and helpful.]

Sorry BoomFrog I missed your question yesterday because I was hurrying to get through everything and it wasn't directly directed at me. If the content level remains workable I will be able to play in my usual way of intensely contemplating every work in every post.

Feels like building a get out of jail free card to me "IF IT REMAINS....i will play in my usual way"
So if we call her out for playing different to her town meta - she has a free card to play.

Your interpretation is completely incorrect. I normally play once a day when I get home from work. I do not play during working hours for reasons (I am being paid to work, the security/monitoring on my work computer, I don’t play on my phone, etc.). The last game we had on this forum was a content overload and I had trouble keeping up with the reading and with playing how I like to play. If this game has 5+ pages of content a day, I will be skimming and I don’t like to do that. And its not necessarily my town meta, I play in the same style as any alignment.

"Noting this for reasons."
What reasons?

But that^ there is the only content she posts, run down of players was "okay". Everything else is just general chat. No focus.

Refer to reasons above.

The rundown was by your request and it took up all my mafia time for the day, and then some.

So..you hadn't read the rules?

I did read the rules, and it appears I misunderstood the Janitor role.

I think Fred is likely town on meta alone tbh

Can you explain this read? Fred hasn’t played many games so I’m wondering why you think this. My meta read on Fred would be scum, not town since I remember he is more enthusiastic as town and deflated as scum.

[EGW]

Boomfrog has been prodded.

[Seven]

Request deadline extension.
Request weekends to each be considered half a day.
Request boomprod.

Edit: modninja

Deadline is closer than I thought.

Not vote able day 1

Swiss, sabrar, font, boom. Moody

Why Moody?

Seven what is your actual read on Sabrar* rn

Solid town.

I think that was too heated. I'm sorry.

I'm going to take a break. I will be back sometime before the deadline.

It wasn't at all.

Sabrar what is your read on fonti?

I like how they constantly reevaluated the roles D0. I don't agree with some of their opinion but they gave reasonable explanation. I've especially like this fresh perspective.
D1 they are expressing an opinion on a bunch of players (which again I like) but their main content is their argument with you. I am not impartial here and I think fonti's concerns are legitimate. You are doing exactly what you accuse fonti of, namely twisting their words. You accuse them of saying that you think GF + roleblock are the best roles for scum. That's not what they said. They said that you as scum would have hoped for those roles. And you did claim that exactly.
So overall I have a townlean on fonti.

im not twisting anything. You both are failing to read the appropriate context

When I was saying 2 shot RB and godfather were my top picks to give scum, that was my initial position just in the context of "which scum roles do I think are the least threatening in a vacuum not knowing what town roles that scum selected

When I said scum!Me "would hope for roleblocker and godfather for counterplay" that was in the specific context of me answering Booms question of what roles I would give town if I were scum.

"So yeah my final picks would prob be masonizer, cop, weak doc, and then hope my team atleast gets a godfather or roleblocker atleast for some counterplay"

Thats the full quote, and it boggles my mind that yall somehow are acting like my first picks for what powers to give the scum from town!Me POV, somehow contradicts me saying that if I were scum and gave town x,y,z roles, I would hope for roles a and b because they would atleast give some counterplay

now the question is are sab and fonti legit confused or just scum skimming

I think it's odd that the two roles you found least threatening are the two roles you would hope for as scum. Fonti and Sabrar aren't misinterpreting anything. Considering which roles are the least threatening implies consideration of the roles town might have.

As for number 2, I have no explanation. Would you say that you having missed that is out of character?

Yes.

So what happened?

[Swiss]

Wam - disagree but I'm normally a scum lean day 1 irrespective of alignment

Need other people to weigh in here.

My bessie townlean comes from me playing with town!bessie for atleast the last 2-3 games Ive been in with her and her style not really deviating from that baseline so far. Not a hard read by any means but it feels like town!bessie again to me here

Repeating myself but disagree

Seven coming after me feels opportunistic af rn

Agree, but dislike this

JC gonna be useless all game can already tell

I like this

FF/Mak is still a town lean

[Swiss]

It doesn't, I just felt there was 2 or 3 mafia on that vote.

Hate this