HaiLOWEEN 2023: AI apocalypse

[Gluelock]

Yes. Interesting that Seven didn't point it out. I guess he is preoccupied with EGW, for some reason.

Yet also note that Zen didn't ask Gluelock about him going invisible, yet he did ask me about it in the game with Ro. Don't think I don't remember, Zen.

Lol this is funny, I'll always select to go invisible when given the option. If I ever am not invisible, it'll be due to user error on my part.

[Seven]

Yes. Interesting that Seven didn't point it out. I guess he is preoccupied with EGW, for some reason.

Yet also note that Zen didn't ask Gluelock about him going invisible, yet he did ask me about it in the game with Ro. Don't think I don't remember, Zen.

kek

[EGW]

Lol this is funny, I'll always select to go invisible when given the option. If I ever am not invisible, it'll be due to user error on my part.

Ah alright then.

[EGW]

Mafia: Adumbrodeus, LaserGuy, Gluelock

Going to eat food, but Bessie and others, I'd like thoughts on this. Re-posting since it's a new page.

[Gluelock]

Why?

I liked the idea have having tied wagons 2/2/2/etc so I voted moody to align with the pattern. Once the pattern disappeared I removed my vote. I actually have a town lean on moody.

My intent of the question was because I was pinged as to why you removed it so quickly. No one was in danger of being eliminated. This looked like an excuse to be seen voting for moody.

Vote: EGW

Please bold your vote. And everyone, make your vote stand out from the rest of your posts just to be sure it is counted. Madge is not the most meticulous thread reader, and on top of that she is very busy and does not have Sabrar full-time to help her out.

What would one gain, as town or scum, by being seen voting for Moody? The wagon symmetry fell apart, so I took my vote off lest it be misconstrued as a more serious claim.

Caveat: I was struggling to understand why this question was asked, but I get it now. The generally low post counts here means that each post is treated as if their informational value is naturally higher. Or in other words every post made is assumed to be more densely packed with "mine-able" clues on our alignment. While that could hold true to many of you, I just don't think that's going to be the case when forming your read on me.

[Gluelock]

Ebwop this is what I get for phone posting and not double checking. But hey, higher post count

Town
heury - has owned more cats than dogs
Adum - most evidence of strong hunting this game. Clearly is thinking his thought process through
Zeniba - agree with the analysis that freddino's goodbye post came from town
Gluelock - being too carefree to be mafia
EGW - what I like most is the follow up questions and taking time to really push to understand their mentality. Definitely filling an investigative approach which is towny.
Bessie - no scum pings yet, though a little surprised there is no woof here list yet. Ebwop just saw reads list. The last few Bessie posts sound most like bessie's usually scum hunting self
Mak - felt a little weird why mak felt he needed to defend himself at the beginning but since nothing specific has pinged me
Moody - possible town slip? Even though it came from Seven, I think Seven would call out a town slip as scum. Also likely wifom
JC - literally have no thoughts on JC at this time. Will need to reread.
Somitomi - likely not town. Somi in the past usually pushes back on me when I "incorrectly" interpret his responses
Boom - I don't recall boom tunneling as much as town as I perceive him to be this game.
Laserguy - don't agree with the conclusions for his scum reads
Seven - feels like he is falsely pushing others to agree with him scum reads. Too much pressure on people to agree with him rather than let people share their own opinions. Scum wants mislynches, town wants opinion for scum hunting.
Scum

This seems curated as to not ruffle any feathers and just float along the general consensus. For example, your take on me seems oddly familiar; are these unique thoughts?

[bessie]

Mafia: Adumbrodeus, LaserGuy, Gluelock

Going to eat food, but Bessie and others, I'd like thoughts on this. Re-posting since it's a new page.

Sorry EGW I was trying to put together some reads and I am thinking about that post by Seven.

I think the confirmation post analysis was an ok poke at my meta and I see nothing wrong with it in itself, but taken as a whole with the remainder of his content, I see it as deliberate fluff in a crowded field of active lurking (still rereading but this is my current impression).

But now rereading the confirmation post analysis only, I think the somitomi read is off. Suspiciously off. It is different from all the others.

As for the mafia list itself: I see how Seven selected that list from his reads. I also now see that Seven forced those reads to make that list. If he is mafia, my guess is that he wanted to include a (townie meta?) partner on his list. And leave a (scummy meta?) partner off.

[AdumbroDeus]

System.out.println("

Question, EGW, when did you start thinking the disagreement between me and Zen was theatre?

When I asked you the question about Zen being salty. I was waiting for your response first.

Quoting relevant sections of the post and underlining sections for reference.

Cause I was wrong and thought seven was xivii. New analysis, Zen is salty about a past game.

Why is that your analysis here? I was re-reading, and with the perspective that Zen is scum, I'm wondering why you conclude this. I don't think Zen was pushing you genuinely, yet it also doesn't seem personal. What's your read on Zen, with reasoning.

Thing is for me trying to figure her out, this game is moving a lot faster, so it makes more sense. I'd like to compare some faster moving games where she was town so I can get a clearer read.

It is moving very fast. You know, the second reason why I have been trying to post less is due to this. I realized I was making it harder for everyone else to be able to sort the game. Yet I know that Zen also believes in posting less. I'm not entirely getting the feel that he is trying to restrain himself this game? Also, I'm not entirely sure if the conversation between you and him about the saltiness is very productive. I know that she usually is busy during the week and I personally know that she works a lot, and I know that when she has time to put in the analysis, she will be readable. I think my early read on her was misguided, due to being wrong.

I don't believe that you think it was theatre ran.

The same post you talked about saltiness, you chided me for continuing the discussion that began as Seven apologizing to me and ended with me doing a deep dive into Seven's thought process until they EXPLICITLY told me what incident they were comparing to where I should've voted for them and me doing a teardown of how different the situations were.

I also said that I didn't think it was personal animus, just a flawed understanding of my town player here:

System.out.println("

However, my analysis wasn't because I think you hate me or something. I was tunneling you extremely hard that game, for reasons I considered justified. I can't know for sure whether I'd play the same way today, but my point was because you were a target of me being really relentlessly on you when I was wrong seems to loom really large over your understanding of my play even if the details of the game aren't necessarily fresh in your mind and that realization was essential to understanding where you were coming from. Having an imperfect understanding of my meta isn't a personal failing.

Btw, you said it "wasn't because I don't understand the difference between anti-town and scum", mind walking me through your thought process then on your initial read of me as scum?

I concluded that the game colored my understanding of my meta and did my explicit teardown of the situations here:

viewtopic.php?p=51636#p51636

That's the kind of post you should be all over and wanting more of if you were actually legitimately thinking in these terms. Instead you shut down at trying to analyze my rationale at the post I said salt.

I don't believe you ran.

The only thing that sticks in my mind against the theory that you're just lying about this push is this, the rules explicitly say "all chat is nightchat". There was no n0 and the rules were explicit that nobody play until D1 begins.

There's no opportunity to coordinate this or even figure out whether people knew I knew who among Seven, Xivii, Zen, and Ro were one and the same. This is heavily reliant not just on us being ready to react in a coordinated manner but being aware of what out of game knowledge other players in the game have and even potential replacements. It makes no sense for us to be able to pull this theatre off.

Mafia EGW would know that all chat is day chat because he'd be otherwise happily chatting away and I have a suspicion you don't think I'm a sloppy enough player to not think I wouldn't pick up on this fatal flaw in your case.

But you're a sloppy enough I don't think you'd notice it as town.

");

[AdumbroDeus]

System.out.println("

A TL;DR, because Ran never reads. My views on Seven didn't hinge on them having a personal animus. As expressed in depth in an exchange you chided me for as "unproductive" in the exact same post you say you started thinking it was theatre, it was that I think the game looms large in their meta on me whether they know it consciously or not.

The actual situations they were comparing suggests I was right and they did misunderstand my thought process on Mak in sorc due to meta.

Also, what you're suggesting is basically impossible without at least n0 talk, probably day talk and the rules are explicit all chat is nightchat and not to play until D1.

My read on you now hinges on whether I think scum-egw would try to sneak this fatal flaw past me or whether you believe it and are being town-obtuse.

");

[EGW]

I skimmed your posts regarding the salt conversation, especially the post you made that you linked to me, also because your posts were big and always had the print-in format that I personally am finding hard to read through. Also consider that in my first reads list I mentioned that I skimmed the conversation between you and Boomfrog, because it was hard to read. Concise is nice. Re-reading seeing your response to Zen, seemed fake, and your response to me seemed fake. (When you asked me if Seven = Zen) It's that shrimple. I also skimmed the mechanics and OP of this game, I was just happy that this game wasn't PYP. I never said that you coordinated it though. I simply said it seemed like scum theatre. I still think that your conversation wasn't really productive for this game, just seems like you brought it up as an excuse to neglect to sort Zen. You and Zen posted a ton and that hurts towns chances of sorting. Also it's funny that you are stating you don't think I believe in this yet you never came to the conclusion that Zen didn't believe in his push on you nor Bessie.

[AdumbroDeus]

Mafia EGW would know that all chat is day chat because he'd be otherwise happily chatting away and I have a suspicion you don't think I'm a sloppy enough player to not think I wouldn't pick up on this fatal flaw in your case.

But you're a sloppy enough I don't think you'd notice it as town.

");

System.out.println("

EBWOP: should read "all chat is night chat");

[somitomi]

I was gonna go back to Seven, but holy smokes, do I have a lot to catch up on

[EGW]

Also, what you're suggesting is basically impossible without at least n0 talk, probably day talk and the rules are explicit all chat is nightchat and not to play until D1.

I disagree. I never factored in coordination.

[Seven]

I was gonna go back to Seven, but holy smokes, do I have a lot to catch up on

It’s ok buddy, your read is fine where it is. You can ignore George’s prattling.

[Seven]

JC’s tone here is different than it was in the game I played with him where he was town. And yes, I’m picking up on the difference from just a few posts, as it was only his first couple of posts in the previous game that I derived a town read.

In that game there was a player named Niph who had recently played with JC as scum. She also noted the tone difference from his scum game and his town game from just a couple of posts. She described his scum meta as sitting back and not really solving as he’s doing here.

The caveat I have is that his difference in tone may be due to attempting to keep up with boomfrogs instructions, so I await one of his reasoned read lists to form a conclusion.

[AdumbroDeus]

I skimmed your posts regarding the salt conversation, especially the post you made that you linked to me, also because your posts were big and always had the print-in format that I personally am finding hard to read through. Also consider that in my first reads list I mentioned that I skimmed the conversation between you and Boomfrog, because it was hard to read. Concise is nice. Re-reading seeing your response to Zen, seemed fake, and your response to me seemed fake. (When you asked me if Seven = Zen) It's that shrimple. I also skimmed the mechanics and OP of this game, I was just happy that this game wasn't PYP. I never said that you coordinated it though. I simply said it seemed like scum theatre. I still think that your conversation wasn't really productive for this game, just seems like you brought it up as an excuse to neglect to sort Zen. You and Zen posted a ton and that hurts towns chances of sorting. Also it's funny that you are stating you don't think I believe in this yet you never came to the conclusion that Zen didn't believe in his push on you nor Bessie.

System.out.println("

You're saying this about posts that were specifically about confirming my sort on Zen because there was something nagging me about their thought process.

I don't believe you cause I can't see the gears turning in your head like I did with Zen (and boomfrog for that matter). The timing is wrong, you came to this conclusion when I reignited digging into Zen's thought process to confirm I sorted them correctly AND chided me for having that convo.

If you believe the complex theatre you're proposing is possible without coordination then my point about whether or not you knew about all chat being nightchat is irrelevant, you're objectively wrong and this case is scummy AF.

PS. Blaming your misunderstanding of my fully laid out thought process on me not being consise is just a bad excuse. It may have been a while, but you played with me for years, you know I am not a concise player. "Null until I can take the time to fully digest what you're saying" is a complete sentence.

Also, what you're suggesting is basically impossible without at least n0 talk, probably day talk and the rules are explicit all chat is nightchat and not to play until D1.

I disagree. I never factored in coordination.

I saw. That you don't think what you're proposing requires coordination is what changes changes this case from "I'm not sure" to "scum".

");

[AdumbroDeus]

System.out.println("

EBWOP:

Add "system.out.println(""); " around above post");

[AdumbroDeus]

System.out.println("

Frankly only issue that's nagging me about the Ran (EGW) case now is the possibility that I'm overestimating Ran (EGW) in part because I underestimated him last game.

");

[Seven]

I was gonna go back to Seven, but holy smokes, do I have a lot to catch up on

It’s ok buddy, your read is fine where it is. You can ignore George’s prattling.

Terminology correction: After looking up this word, it doesn't mean what I thought. I meant something more akin to "poking", "prodding".

[Seven]

Unreletaded to game things:

1. The variety of avatar size on this forum is amusing to me for some reason, particularly that Adum's avatar is exactly 1/4th the size of Somi's.
2. bessie has it been as hot down there as it has been up here because holy F***

[EGW]

If you believe the complex theatre you're proposing is possible without coordination then my point about whether or not you knew about all chat being nightchat is irrelevant, you're objectively wrong and this case is scummy AF.

Yes, I simply assume that Zen and yourself would know each others alignment as mafia are informed. I think your argument is a reach, since it requires me to think about whether or not mafia are talking with each other or not, when I'm just calling it as I see it. Also on the timing, I never considered it at first, but then it made more sense with my scumread on Zen and a re-read, and seeing your response to me with a bigger picture rather than being in the moment. I don't have all the puzzle pieces at once, so it takes time for me to see the bigger picture.

[somitomi]

Ok, no idea where my first post just went

feline broth

Zen is a competent player and he has the range to be able to fake it. Again, just look at his argument on Bessie. Does it seem like he believes it? Is it a fair argument from Zen? I think reading him based on his case on Bessie is crucial.

Ok, BoomFrog has put this more eloquently than I ever could in the meantime, but yeah, the argument rests almost entirely on the idea that if bessie suspected me of being scum the only possible course of action for her would be to vote me. This is apparently based on a soul read of bessie suggesting that she'd never give any sort of concession to other players, which I don't think is true, from my newbie days I have this recollection that she'd similarly refrain from voting newbies on D1.

You calling it misinformation implies you think Seven is scum, in which case you either think I'm being led down the primrose path or I'm scum and just got my marching orders. The quotes you cite look like they're from Sorc11, in that case she looks like she's trying to do the same thing as here, break some kind of existing meta where she tunnels somi (I've know about the tunnelling part for years, whether the target usually being somi is new may be something she developed elsewhere), but her being blatant with "I will vote somi no more" is a bit much. If somi had been our best suspect D1, it would be anti town.

Yeah, I've been a fairly regular target of the D1 bessie-tunnel. I'm not sure where and when it started but I already referred to this as a well established pattern in Milleriser Mafia.

Note: EGW is highly town right now

Somi being scum aligned in Sorc11 makes your argument have a lot less weight. If you are suggesting that had we misyeeted someone and bessie would have come around to voting him D2, I am willing to say that counterfactual is possible.

Bessie didn't vote me in Sorcerer's though, so if anything, that game is proof that she was willing to give me that sort of leeway even when I was actual suspicious scum.

Caveat: I was struggling to understand why this question was asked, but I get it now. The generally low post counts here means that each post is treated as if their informational value is naturally higher. Or in other words every post made is assumed to be more densely packed with "mine-able" clues on our alignment. While that could hold true to many of you, I just don't think that's going to be the case when forming your read on me.

It was also your first and only vote before EGW and while you couldn't know this, the old xkcd meta was a reserved use of votes and they tended to imply a fairly strong suspicion. Voting for the lulz like this just didn't happen outside RVS at the beginning of the game...

It’s ok buddy, your read is fine where it is. You can ignore George’s prattling.

daria_squint.png (24.35 KiB) Viewed 5022 times

[bessie]

I was gonna go back to Seven, but holy smokes, do I have a lot to catch up on

It’s ok buddy, your read is fine where it is. You can ignore George’s prattling.

ha ha no.PNG (195.9 KiB) Viewed 5008 times

2. bessie has it been as hot down there as it has been up here because holy F***

Upper 80s and no air conditioning. I’m trying to concentrate but getting nowhere on my reads. I was hoping to get more done today but my husband’s band is playing at 7 so it will probably be quick responses and low posting until I get home tonight.

[bessie]

Somethings wrong with the display I saw a this post from somi when I was posting, then a different post, then closed my browser and I see this post again.

[somitomi]

...ok, apologies everyone. I didn't mean to edit that post, but for a moment I thought I lost all that I have typed up among my tabs and I guess I miscliccked something somewhere