Millerizer Mafia - Game Over

[bessie]

George, my initial reaction to Court was that he was more engaged than I expected, since he warned us ahead of time that his time was limited and he would only be committing to about one post a day. Re "not fighting the elimination" I have some thoughts on that. I generally don't find it an anti-town thing and I will give my reasons, which I have given in many many games but they are in xkcd games which are hard to search, or in Smashboards games which are also hard to search, and I don't have the recall I had in my puppy years. If someone is scummy enough to be the main elimination candidate in an early game day, I think it is sometimes townier if they just let themselves be eliminated. The worst is being stuck in a three-way gunfight at LYLO with a scuumy townie and a townie scum, I have been there and I have made the wrong choice. This is also why I dislike self-preservation votes, like Madge's preliminary hedge.

I do think it is anti-townie for Court not to be here spilling his guts on anything and everything he thinks about the game, but I don't think it is mafia anti-townie, maybe indie anti-townie though.

[EGW]

George, my initial reaction to Court was that he was more engaged than I expected, since he warned us ahead of time that his time was limited and he would only be committing to about one post a day.

That's fair, however note that he didn't have to do what he did even with the limited time he had.

Yeaaah I had a feeling this would happen. I don’t really have a strong opinion on anything. I was feeling kinda lazy/tired when I put out that post and figures it wasn’t THAT great, but felt compelled to put out -something- as part of my commitment to this game. Looks like it backfired Kill me if you must

He felt compelled to post that list, which caused him to rush it and fluff it up. Compare this to Sabrar, who had no scumreads, yet was open about that, and with the time passing, he posted his reads. My idea is that Court was compelled to post a list because he was worried about his image, rather than naturally discovering other players alignments at his own pace.

[heuristically_alone]

Heury why is Prince J so high on your list?

A beautiful question.

When putting together the reads list I realized I had no solid strong town leads and Prince J was the last one I placed. In the end I decided pretty much everyone else I would vote before prince j. Really on my next reread I should put a focus on Prince J's content.

I'll be at work come deadline but I'll do my best to take my break near deadline.

[bessie]

How do you feel J's game here compares to the MU game you linked Bessie? Any read you'd like to discuss with me?

I misread Prince J in that game and he felt townier in that game but he hasn't really given us enough content in this game to move him more woof on my list.

I hope we get some more content before deadline, including an explanation from Madge as to why she is not voting for Prince J.

[EGW]

Agreed, I want to see where J's head is at.

[Sabrar]

Sabrar, this is my only game with Prince J.

I've taken a look but it uses the Purgatory setup which complicates things a little bit. If I have the time I will return to it later.

@Sabrar, I did not read through Shakespeare III but if I recall correctly, there was no way for Court and Yoloswag team to win after Day 1

I think it was only after D2 but I see your point. However if you think that the current situation is also caused by something like that, wouldn't that preclude Court being Town this game?

I generally like bessie's reads, obviously I disagree with the reasoning behind some of them (see above for Court, also I think Madge explained her change of heart wrt Court and where her vote is coming from) but I'm used to that.

I will check back in about an hour and plan to leave my vote on Court at that time.

[EGW]

I've taken a look but it uses the Purgatory setup which complicates things a little bit. If I have the time I will return to it later.

Why is that? I'm starting to read the game myself, and I don't want to waste time if it won't help as much due to that. (I saw something about recycling but I didn't read in depth about the setup)

[EGW]

somitomi: My style and somitomi’s style clash andI never town read him early. I would like to give it another day before I make a solid read so I would rather not eliminate him today, provided he gives us a town-scum list.

Can you go into the underlined for me? Is it due to his lack of engagement (His self admitted lack of being caught up) or something else?

[bessie]

somitomi has a playstyle which includes things that I generally find suspicious (so does Madge) like would-i-do-this-as-scum posts, self-preservation votes, lurking, and some stuff I consider active lurking. I often don't understand his reads. I often tunnel him hard and I'm often wrong.

[EGW]

Thank you Bessie. What do you think of Heury's response to your question by the way?

[bessie]

I like that heury is not avoiding my questions. But I do not think his response is not good reasoning for putting Prince J above Fred on his list.

[EGW]

I agree, I don't find his response acceptable either.

[EGW]

Here's the tough question: How do your reads change if Court flipped Millerizer? Mafia?

[bessie]

If Court flips mafia, it doesn’t really change my reads, because I don’t usually read for teams this early in the game. I might clear Prince J, because I have given Prince J an opening to change his vote. If Prince J has glanced at the thread and he is partners with Court that should give him reason to log since Court has been at L-1 and will be again as soon as Sabrar logs on. Also, Prince J seemed genuinely surprised that Court was Bard.

If Court flips Millerizer my reads are unchanged.

[EGW]

Thank you. I'm asking because I'm thinking you and I may be wrong on Madge. Especially since I liked her point about Fred not knowing about the rules. I'm starting to feel that the team might be Heury + J, if Court flips Millerizer. What do you think of my reasoning for Heury being scum? If Court flips Mafia, I'd think J may be scum with him. I think Madge would be the more likely Millerizer in this case. However, I think Court may flip Millerizer more than I think he'd flip Mafia. I will go into some things that bugged me about J. One such example is that he never really gave a read on me in the thread, yet has stated that he vibed with my questioning and had a fluid understanding of my reads and it sort of lined up with his thinking.

[EGW]

Unvote

Also, thank you for talking with me. I have said this before, but I need a sound board to talk with or I go crazy. Much appreciated.

[EGW]

Be back shortly going to help my father with his medicine.

[bessie]

Hi Sabrar I've been waiting to see if you want to discuss anything before you go to sleep.

[Sabrar]

Why is that? I'm starting to read the game myself, and I don't want to waste time if it won't help as much due to that.

You would need to read the rules but in short In that setup you don't just lose if you vote out too many town players but you also lose if if scum-players are found too townie. It changes the dynamics of a normal game significantly.

Vote: Court

I assume you will do so anyways but please pester the others to post content.

Ninja'd: hi bessie! I think I understand where you are coming from and I know I won't be able to change your mind in the short time I have left. I had a question to you here, not sure if you considered that to be answered during your discussion with George.

[bessie]

@Sabrar, I did not read through Shakespeare III but if I recall correctly, there was no way for Court and Yoloswag team to win after Day 1

I think it was only after D2 but I see your point. However if you think that the current situation is also caused by something like that, wouldn't that preclude Court being Town this game?

Hmm, it doesn’t in my mind because if Court is eliminated his team (town or mafia) can win here. Millerizer can't win if they are eliminated I will try to work on a more satisfactory response but I wanted to post an answer while you were still on line.

[bessie]

Unofficial votals

Court (4) : Prince J, Heury, madge, Sabrar
No Elimination (1) : Fred

Not voting: bessie, somitomi, Court, EGW

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Court is at L-1. Please be careful with your votes.

[bessie]

I am guessing that somitomi will come online soon, apologize for being absent today, explain how he would vote for Court but he’s not going to vote because it would cut off six valuable hours of discussion, and that he is going to sleep and won’t be up before deadline.

somitomi if you see this please leave an ordered list.

[Sabrar]

I appreciate that. But then that means that from your pov Court can only be Millerizer, no? If the only reason he resigns to his fate is that his faction can no longer win then that's only possibility that fits.

[EGW]

I assume you will do so anyways but please pester the others to post content.

Will do. I'm back now. Down to talk about anything with you as well.

[EGW]

J

It feels like he is seeing a player be named townie and he tries to deconstruct that, with his read on Bessie, which is also not a direct stance nor does he do anything with it. He does the same thing when I'm mentioning my tone read of Somi but he again mentions that he doesn't think he's townie, however J himself never really goes into that further nor does he ask Somi to provide reads / a vote. However he does with Heury, and that goes no where. Again, I also feel like it's weird that he mentions that he vibes with my questioning on Fred, and can fluidly understand my reads and it somewhat lines up with his thoughts on the game but he doesn't provide a read on me, as if hesitant. It is beneficial to try to knock down town reads and hold town reads because it is detrimental to scum if they have too many town reads themselves, since then they have a harder time faking their own reads. If J is open why hasn't he been open with myself? He has seemed open however it is selective. Madge's point about him not giving her any impression also struck me as a good observation. It's odd that J has not really given an impression, because he is a player I expect to influence the game positively if town. I have yet to see that here. Scum-lean.

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Quotes

Off the cuff, minor insight to headspace, I do not think I would go Bessie toDay, yet I do see valid equity in her possibly being mafia from her catch-up posts seeming holistically in the middle ground while very minor nudges tho no true committal points?

Idk hard one to explain, but I could see yet tho I'm not really convinced of it myself.

Also off the cuff, I don't really think it's Fred.

Boo. Is it because you think Court/Bessie are the team? If Court flipped millerizer, would you reconsider? I strongly believe Bessie is town here by the way. I am factoring meta into it as well though. (I have been mafia with her before and I have read her correctly as mafia when I was town and she was mafia)

I don't think it's Court/Bessie tho was a musing I had based on Bessie getting a lot of town-points without any like harder stances and commentary posts with her catch-ups and then Court is fluffy and non-committal and says a lot though which tbh just felt like "huh, I could see it"

I'm not really focusing on Indy vs. Mafia vs X because anti-town faction is anti-town and they just gotta go. Getting the Millerizer out works for both sides in the sense of the game has about 3-4 phases before auto-win from Millerizer while in continuation with flips. So it's probs someone floating the middle ground which works for a couple of the names being listed.

Also you remember my opinion on meta and how I'm proven, to you personally, how silly that notion can be? =p

Town [EGW > Bessie > J > Sabrar > Heury > Somitomi | Court > Madge > Fred] Scum

Unvote; Vote: Fred

If someone else flipped Indy right now, what would your read/lean be for Court?

Also I completely disagree with your assessment of freddino. I don't blame him for wanting to understand the mechanics before starting to look for scum. I also think you're reading too much into some of his jokey mannerisms. -0.5 for an "easy" push. I do agree that getting some actually reads from him would be beneficial in getting a more guaranteed read.

@freddino can you give us at least at this point some candidates you believe would be desirable to vote?

Who do you think should go then if you could choose a name?

Also you remember my opinion on meta and how I'm proven, to you personally, how silly that notion can be? =p

Yes I'm aware that meta can burn me but I still like to use it as a tool and try to reconsider. For example take Somitomi, who seems very slightly town from his initial posts but I'm concerned I'm wrong about him most likely, hopefully his posts will help me read him better ToDay. Anyway on Bessie you would really need to sell me and I wouldn't consider her ToDay at all at the very least. On indy vs Mafia, I'm not too pressed either. I'm quite happy if either flip today.

I don't think Somitomi is "very slightly town" they really haven't done anything tbh.

I'm not considering Bessie toDay either lol.