Animal Kingdom Mafia (Game Over)

[Seven]

Vote Count 2.3

BoomFrog (3): Makhaira, Eido, phillip (L-2)

Not voting: BoomFrog, Mark_Cangila, messie, somitomi, wam

[messie]

Woof! Today is my birthday and my people got me a cake! I tried to eat the whole thing at once and they took it away and gave me a little piece. But they left it on the counter and now I am just waiting for them to leave.

hoku birthday cake.PNG (195.01 KiB) Viewed 2186 times

Wam, you didn’t provide a reply to this:

This doesn’t answer my question, and if anything supports BoomFrog’s reasons for his vote. If BoomFrog was reading both me and Heury as town, doesn’t it make sense for him to want to vote elsewhere?

@Wam please explain what was suspicious about BoomFrog’s vote on somitomi.

@messie if not boom then who would you suggest?

Also.@ messie to quote sabrar again my current nagging doubt about boom is does this elim feel too easy?

I’m still thinking about it. But I am suspicious of those that piled on your BoomFrog vote so quickly, and I have noted that you were the only one to unvote to avoid early hammer (and that Mark also didn’t vote to avoid early hammer).


@Makhaira, why didn’t you acknowledge my request of you to unvote? Were you not curious as to why I singled you out?



@Eido you forgot to react to this:

By this argument, Sabrar would also be the obvious Watcher target. Why do you think scum wasn’t afraid of a Watcher?

Aside from the Night kill trail, my issue with Boom is that he was aware low effort players likelier contain scum, but spent most of his time D1 looking to undermine high effort posters instead.

Can you link to the content where BoomFrog says (or alludes to) this? Because I don’t see it.

They made a post in the Night. Scum!Phillip is probably somewhat aware of the boundaries of the game, considering they have Osie as a mentor. If the scum plan is resorting to dirty tactics like encouraging Phillip to fake a Night post, I think the team gets scolded by Osie (who is big on the ethics of the game).

I don't think this plan is happening. They just look consistently a bit lost, which makes me think they're probably not scum.

I think this is poor reasoning for putting Philip at the top of your town list.

Anyway, time to prove my strategy works. I just have to solve the game D2.

Um, yeah, why don’t you work on this in addition to giving Philip gameplay advice.


Woof, did I hear my people leave? Oh boy, be back later, I have some important counter surfing to do!

[boomfrog]

Anyway, time to prove my strategy works. I just have to solve the game D2.

Um, yeah, why don’t you work on this in addition to giving Philip gameplay advice.

Advising phillip only takes a few minutes. Game solving takes a computer and a few hours. Working on it now though. Also, we can't afford to eliminate phillip if he is town, so advising him about LYLO tactics is very worthwhile.

[boomfrog]

This is frustrating because there's a lot of context that only half the players here have. Most of my recent games D1 I have done a "gambit", something intentionally "anti-town" on it's surface to provoke reactions. It's been one of the most successful ways I have to get good reads on people because when you put scum in an awkward situation they don't know how to react naturally when they know you are town. Somi, wam, messie, heury and Sabrar are all familiar with this. I thought Mark was as well but maybe they haven't played with me that much.

Anyway, time to prove my strategy works. I just have to solve the game D2.

Do any of the names you listed above concern you? Should they be understanding you better considering they have more context?

I'd also appreciate if you could answer this question here: viewtopic.php?p=19764#p19764

Yes, messie has reacted exactly how I expected which is why I'm town reading them so hard. Somi feels opportunistic following after everyone else when they should know better. Wam was right out the gate which feels like a plan of Night Eliminate Sabrar then go after boomfrog. However, I don't think a wam+somi team comes up with that plan, they are both relatively passive players. So if wam is scum I think his partner must be you or Makhaira. Leaning towards Makhaira. But I'll be keeping somi+wam, wam+Makhaira and wam+Eido in mind during my reread.

[boomfrog]

I got burned badly last game by Osie and decided my D1 mission was to get a read on the high effort players. If the low effort players contain the scum then I trust the surviving high effort players to suss them out on later days.

This is unclear. Why didn't you spend more time yesterDay looking into low effort players?

Sorry for missing the question, I don't want to get too distracted by defending myself. Low effort players, town or scum tend to get eliminated. In my experience they are NOT more likely to be scum in games where everyone is an experienced player. No one here besides phillip should be judged on volume of content. Somi is going to be low volume and low effort as town or scum. But despite that, when scum play a good game people go for the more uncertain feeling targets which are the low content posters. Last game I played a very unusually game for me and played a straightforward townie. I got no good read and got Night Eliminated N1 and no one besides Bessie caught onto the high effort scum player, Osie. If I played last game more like I played this one, I think I would have gotten a better read on Osie. Although obviously some tweaking to the plan so I don't get voted off D2 would be better.

[boomfrog]

I could have sat back and let us coast to a miselim on Heury. If I hadn't gone wild and attacked Eido then I wouldn't have been under any scrutiny. If messie was my partner I could have easily found an excuse to vote heury, no need to get so dirty. I pushed Eido because I wanted to shake things up. People show their true intentions when they take action, and the only action in this game is voting someone you think will very possibly be eliminated due to your vote. So getting people to vote on more wagons gives us more info. We have a lot more to go on D2 because of my shake up D1. What's the scummy motivation for what I did D1?

Ok, so was your scumread on Eido here part of the gambit? How about Sabrar?
Also, you did sort of find an excuse to vote Heury and I don't think you would've been under no scrutiny if you did that without attacking Eido and trying to set me up for a miselim. Maybe there would be less of it, but I find that sketchy in and of itself.

Scum reading Sabrar was legit I thought he was too defensive, but it was a very light scum read and I mostly was provoking more to get more info. Going after Eido was a wagon that I didn't expect to succeed but wanted to see if anyone would react in an interesting way. You know I have a good feel for what wagons are tractable, there's no way I really thought I could get the most widely town read person eliminated, but a townie reacts to that with surprise where scum would react more opportunistically. That's what I'll be looking for on my reread.

The wagon on you was a legit attempt. I think if I hadn't burned my credit I could have swung the elimination to you instead of heury. Objectively can you really say that heury was a better elimination choice then you were? Even with you knowing you are town, scum-me wouldn't have a preference between the two of you.

[boomfrog]

This is taking longer then I hoped and I need to go get ready for bed. Daylight savings time really messed me up. Deadline is in about 25 hours. I'll be sure to get it out before then.

[Wam]

@messie and @boom

Here boom has somi bottom of their town list and then still votes eido.
viewtopic.php?p=19407#p19407
Pushing somi for lack of effort and describing them as the compromise elim.

Here is booms vote for somi

viewtopic.php?p=19505#p19505

24 hours apart a 24 hours where boom doesn't mention somi at all. In those 24 hours somi posted twice the 2nd being a reads list.

viewtopic.php?p=19479#p19479

There was no reference to the reads list no explanation beyond lack of effort.

Its scummy to me as it seems boom wasnt trying to solve just somi is scummy without looking at any additional data.

On a meta note somi is always hammered for low content and I dont think its AI for them. Boom should at least factor that in.

[Wam]

Also I'm worried as were <18 hours to deadline and the thread is dead.

[Mark_Cangila]

"I could have sat back and let us coast to a miselim on Heury."
Then how do you explain these few posts?

I'd rather not yeet Heury or messie but if it comes down to it I'll move to Heury.

Quick list since I have other obligations tonight.

Town:
Mark - Good townie vibe and active scumhunting. Good reads list. I recall Mark being more passive.
Heury - Good reads list, actually paying attention and trying to scumhunt.
Makhaira - I think I like the rolefishing actually. It was a bad idea, but they are obviousely very familiar with how to play mafia and I think as scum they would not have tried it. I think it was a sincere but misguided attempt at scumhunting.
Phillip - I don't want to excuse the complete lack of effort, but the brazenness feels townie. Newbie scum would be more worried about fitting in and not screwing up. town!Phillip doesn't care that he's sticking out.
Wam - Vote on messie has some merit. Town vibe from his willingness to go after Messie, since scum have often been caught in those jaws.

messie - One townie ping early game but their reads list is concerning.
Sabrar - feels off, but I'm willing to give him more time to show his townieness. Would really like to see a reads list. Especially his read on me.
Eido - very townie vibe, but clearly an experienced player. I expected them to lead town but their lack of commentary on my "conflict" with Sabrar feels very deliberate.
Somitomi - complete lack of effort
Scum

Vote Eido

@Somitomi please put some effort in or you may end up the compromise elimination.

@wam and @sabrar, you are letting Eido's townie tone lull you into complacency. They started the day strongly but then completely failed to be involved when things got serious.

Messier and Heury are both bad eleminations, and I'm trying to find a better choice.

Regardless of "oh I was just saying what I'd do if it came down to Messie vs Heury", why wouldn't you just keep your vote on someone you find scummy, especially D1. Isn't having content and stuff to analyze so important, per you? And why switch to Heury over Messie, when you had Messie listed as so scummy?

@Boomfrog Why did you switch from reading Messie as scummy to so townie, especially from JUST these two posts by them?

Half identified scum team from confirmation posts = that was a joke. Like your vote is, the one that's apparently still on me me me me me me me

Sorry, I got confused between Heury and Mak. That was a genuine mistake: Heury didn't rolefish to my knowledge and so doesn't deserve to be there, and Mak's rolefishing means they don't deserve to be my Towniest.

My vote is defensive, though, so I'm not moving it.

I want to swap to wam if there's any momentum, though. His vote is opportunistic. No scumread on me. He might be scum with Heury or Sabrar.

You don't know what's characteristic of me, I'm a whole new person!

(I expect I'll be changing my vote before deadline, fwiw.)

@Boomfrog, could you please respond to this? This is part of what I find so scummy about your D1 play - how did you suddenly become so pro-Messie in such a short time, and start seeking out Eido and Somitomi as scum? I don't see a townie explanation for this in my head.

[Eido]

Can you link to the content where BoomFrog says (or alludes to) this? Because I don’t see it.

It comes from Boom's explanation here: viewtopic.php?p=19445#p19445

For your other question, I haven't been thinking about that. I don't really know.

How are you planning to solve Phillip this game btw?

Sorry for missing the question, I don't want to get too distracted by defending myself. Low effort players, town or scum tend to get eliminated. In my experience they are NOT more likely to be scum in games where everyone is an experienced player. No one here besides phillip should be judged on volume of content. Somi is going to be low volume and low effort as town or scum. But despite that, when scum play a good game people go for the more uncertain feeling targets which are the low content posters. Last game I played a very unusually game for me and played a straightforward townie. I got no good read and got Night Eliminated N1 and no one besides Bessie caught onto the high effort scum player, Osie. If I played last game more like I played this one, I think I would have gotten a better read on Osie. Although obviously some tweaking to the plan so I don't get voted off D2 would be better.

I was in a similar position in NewD3 so can relate. Saying that, would be good to get more of your thoughts sooner than later because of time.

You say above you would have gotten a better read on Scum!Osie (from another game) if you played more like you are playing here. This tells me you get more value in catching Scum from devising plans and then analysing the content they give you. One thing that isn't clear to me then is how you've progressed to start looking at Wam / Buddy combinations, which look like they aren't the result of any of your plans but rather from the opening of D2. What happened to you vs Sabrar, you vs me, your EOD1 movements? Can you talk about this more?

[Wam]

@dido who's your second choice after boom?

[Wam]

@eido stupid auto correct

[Eido]

Still undecided about somitomi. Just feels like they haven't had time to pay much attention to the game.

same

boomfrog undermining my TMI bait and now 180ing and saying he town reads me for it feels gross, like he's cutting bait and running

fine with boom or heury going at this point. wouldnt be upset to lose phillip is becoming deader and deader weight by the day but I don't think we learn much from that flip

Hey, wondering was there a particular reason you left your vote on Heury after agreeing with him here? The line about Boom being gross sounds like it has more contempt. Sabrar, myself & Somi were on Boom at this point, so it could have been majority.

[LaserGuy]

Vote Count 2.4

BoomFrog (3): Makhaira, Eido, phillip (L-2)

Not voting: BoomFrog, Mark_Cangila, messie, somitomi, wam

Deadline in 13 hours

[Wam]

@ mark can we get a reass list please?

[Wam]

And actually @ makhira as well please

[boomfrog]

@Boomfrog, could you please respond to this? This is part of what I find so scummy about your D1 play - how did you suddenly become so pro-Messie in such a short time, and start seeking out Eido and Somitomi as scum? I don't see a townie explanation for this in my head.

Quick answer: The low ranking for messie was because of the weird vote on heury and confusion about Makhaira vs heury doing the rolefishing. But when it came down to crunch time, my gut said messie is as lock town as you can get in this game. She could have self pres voted me instead of Heury, and I'm a much more dangerous townie then Heury is, she would have wanted to take the opportunity to eliminate me if they were scum. More importantly, the Makhaira screw up and other examples means they are posting freely without fully consulting internally. Scum messie would be more concerned about coordinating. Heury was likely town, but there was a possibility of scum so I went for it. There was no good choice there though.

Eido and Somi I explained before, Eido was not a very serious push, and Somi was a much better chance to hit scum then the other wagons were and was the most tractable option.

[boomfrog]

This is how we solve the phillip issue. Just solve everything. Below is commentary on the possibility of each pair being scum partners.
- : unlikely from tone
-- : confidently unlikely from actions like voting or sincere pushes.
--- : Almost certainly not mates. Actions against eachother from both sides.

+ : Possible mates, little or only superficial interaction.
++ : good chance of mates (based only on interaction, but should be tempered by actual individual scum reads.)

This doesn't give a full solve but it cuts down the possibilities a lot. Summery below the spoiler.

Team Evaluations:

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Wam:
+ wam+somi - Possible mates. Literally zero interaction.
+ wam+Phillip - Possible mates, wam has avoided talking about Phillip at all.
--- wam+messie - Unlikely, wam is one of Bessie's D1 tunnels and she wouldn't want to put a buddy in her crosshairs. Also, wam voted messie through the end of D1
- wam+Eido - This criticism of wam's speed to vote D2 doesn't come from a buddy who planned this N1: viewtopic.php?p=19621#p19621
++ wam+Makhaira - Makhaira reads wam as neutral D1 then very townie D2. Says wam is 'sincerely scumhunting' based only on wam voting me immediatly D2. Possible Mates. Wam defends Makhaira's "mountainous" question.
+ wam+Mark - Possible mates, wam has said nothing about Mark and Mark has said nothing about wam.

Somi:
+ Somi+Phillip - Possible, no interactions.
- Somi+messie - Unlikely, Messie has thrown lots of shade at Somi and seems to be their second tunnel target.
- Somi+Eido - This post at start of D2 is too casual to be planned. Somi is genuinely surprised that Eido took extra meaning from their suggestion. Doesn't feel like scummates: viewtopic.php?p=19648#p19648 Somi challenging Edio's D2 naked vote is not something a buddy would want to do: viewtopic.php?p=19756#p19756
- Somi+Makhaira - Somi taking a random sleepy potshot at Makhaira is not coming from a partner. Scum Somi would plan avoid buddy interaction while sleepy. viewtopic.php?p=19438#p19438 . Genuine callout of somi here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=606&sk=a&sid=c8f3dc ... &start=150
+ Somi+Mark - Possible mates. Not talked about eachother.

Makhaira:
- Makhaira+messie - Genuine callout from Makhaira digging at Messie. Not likely partners: viewtopic.php?p=19357&sid=c8f3dccaa0515 ... 7d0#p19357 also mudsligs at messie here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=606&sk=a&sid=c8f3dc ... &start=150 3rd quote.
+ Makhaira+Eido - Little interaction, possible mates
-- Makhaira+Phillip - Makhaira genuinely frustrated with Phillip at the end of this post viewtopic.php?p=19352&sid=c8f3dccaa0515 ... 7d0#p19352 . Also as one of the two players to call for phillips elimination, not a likely partner.
? Makhaira+Mark - Makhaira reads mark as neutral D1 then very townie on D2. Almost no other interaction. Possible mates. Mark's argument about the 'mountainous' question seems like a sincere disagreement. This post and the next: viewtopic.php?p=19385#p19385

Phillip:
- Phillip+Eido - Not likely, Eido has just the right amount of criticizing phillip for content but trying to help the newbie. For example, very casual annoyance here: viewtopic.php?p=19364#p19364 Buddy-phillip would have responded to Eido more directly unless Eido is an amazing coach in scumchat.
--- Phillip+messie - Not likely partners as Messie has repeatedly expressed that Phillip should be eliminated. Also, phillip voted messie through the end of D1 viewtopic.php?p=19272#p19272
- Phillip+Mark - Mark challenges a town read of phillip. scummate Mark would be happy that Eido is finding his partner townie and not object: viewtopic.php?p=19852#p19852

Mark:
+ Mark+Eido - No interaction from Eido despite being a strong town read.
+ Mark+messie - A big chunk of Marks content is challenging messie, but all the questioning is very tame. Could be buddies trying to keep it casual. For example this is so non-threatening: viewtopic.php?p=19304#p19304

Eido:
- Eido+messie - Eido is unselfconscious about blatantly supporting messie D1 despite immediately providing a reason to scum read Heury. scum!Eido would have just gone after Heury without mentioning messie. viewtopic.php?p=19360#p19360 Lots of back and forth, sincere townie teamwork. viewtopic.php?p=19291#p19291

Summery:
Phillip can only possible be scummates with wam or Somi. If anyone outside of wam and somi is scum then phillip is town.
wam and somi have a lot of possible teammates, that's an indication that they are low content players, not that they are objectively scummy. Surprisingly Mark also has a lot of team possibilities, they have not interacted with many living players and few players have commented about them. But that's more a sign of the town core not challenging eachother.

Possible teams:
wam+somi
wam+Phillip
wam+Mark
wam+Makhaira

Somi+Phillip
Somi+Mark

Mark+Eido
Mark+messie

Makhaira+Eido
Makhaira+Mark (very on the fence about this one)

Will follow up with individual reads soon.

[boomfrog]

Town
messie - Already explained.
Eido - Engaged and asking reasonable questions and feels open minded. I'm willing to lose to scum Eido if he's faking this.
Mark_Cangila - His reaction to my D1 shenanigans feels genuine. He's expressing real confusion. He's walking a fine line between confused and still aggressive that is hard to fake as scum.
Phillip - town lean just from the odds. If one of wam or somi is scum then a possibility. But spoiler alert, I think there's scum outside of that pair.

Wam - Mediocre D1, ended D1 with a vote on messie who is almost certainly town. Starts D2 voting me to "carry Sabrar's torch". Some hint of scum hunting recently though which is a good sign. Scum!wam would be happy to keep the wagon on me. - Scum lean
somitomi - Votes me D1 in a very OMGUS way (for phillip: Oh My God You Suck means someone reactively votes for the people voting them instead of actually trying to find scum). Votes me D2 despite being one of the players who should be understanding about my D1 routine. They are just going for easy targets.
Makhaira - Absolutely scummy reaction to my shenanigans. He has expressed no confusion despite the logic of what I did not fitting into any normal plan from town or scum. His reasons for voting me have been contrived and he's not looking for alternatives or trying to figure out who my scum buddies are. He's just locked into a target and going for a kill. More details below.
Scum

Makhaira analysis

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

on a scale from 1-10 how mountainous do you think this game is?

What are you hoping to get out of this question?

I recommend no one answer this question, btw.

people are asking each other questions in the early game about their assumptions re: # of scum in the game and you don't think their subjective positions re: the mountainousness of this game are relevant? are you trying to help someone not scumslip?

The logic here doesn't make sense. If I'm scum then I have already detected his 'trap' and I would have warned my scum buddy in scum chat. I wouldn't need to post in the main thread to 'help someone not scumslip'.

ok so deadline is tomorrow night and it looks like this is a plurality game so right now messie is the presumptive elimination

here's where Im at

1. Wam - neutral
2. Phillip - non-contributing noobie, lategame liability
3. Heury - scum lean
4. messie (bessie/Madge) - neutral, not likely to be scum theatre with Sabrar
5. Sabrar - neutral, not likely to be scum theatre with messie
6. somitomi - neutral
7. Eido - townlean
8. BoomFrog - scumlean
9. Makhaira - confirmed town
10. Mark_Cangila - neutral

Non-committal reads list since all the reads are unjustified. Not ordering the list gives a lot of flexibility to say one "neutral" was lower then another. "scum lean" on heury despite not talking about heury in any way so far.

...
Heury's snarky tone is pinging me a little, in my recollection town-heury is usually more easy-going.
...

...
my ping on heury was for the same reason and seeing someone who seem to have meta with heury say its out of step validates that. is there anyone else in here with experience with heury that can confirm/deny what somi is saying here?
...
boomfrog undermining my TMI bait and now 180ing and saying he town reads me for it feels gross, like he's cutting bait and running

fine with boom or heury going at this point. wouldnt be upset to lose phillip is becoming deader and deader weight by the day but I don't think we learn much from that flip

This is the first time he explains his vote on Heury. Apparently it's not for the "quick backtracked read" thing but because Heury is too snarky? That's a weird read for someone who doesn't know Heury's personality at all.

His point against me seems much stronger, I'm "gross". Town Makhaira has no reason to not vote me here.

hate misreading overdefensiveness as a scum ping when some people get really defensive as PRs for some reason ugh, should've swapped to boom at EoD but I got tied up when I planned to be available in the last hour and missed the chance

Vote: Boomfrog

D2 starts very quickly with a snap vote on me and a long post talking about Sabrar scum reading me. This fits with the wam+Makhaira setting me up theory. Things were moving away from Heury onto me, but they stayed on Heury so that I'd be an easy misselim toDay.

This whole long post viewtopic.php?p=19789#p19789 is full of mischaracterizations but I'll pick out the highlights:

throwing accusations with no evidence?

vote heuristically_alone

this is a lot of fire coming from the guy who has proceeded to play follow the pack and seems determined to not profess a single independent thought or take any initiative in this game. where'd your gusto go buddy?

especially weird that he seemed vigilant and motivated, double checking voting rules, right off the bat but has now chosen to coast?

(apologies, missed the bold requirement)

vote heuristically_alone

this slot is just going to grow into a bigger and bigger problem as the game goes on without a serious change of course

Phillip probably got told by their mentor or the mod about the voting rules. Phillip's tone has been disengaged and minimal from the beginning. Makhaira trying to frame it as "losing gusto" is completely disingenuous.

Okay, for starters, I think only half my brain hates D1 now and I also have half identified the scum team from their confirmation posts (hint: Sabrar).

early shading of sabrar here, ick

This is clearly a joke from messie which Sabrar acknowledged as a joke immediatly. Scum reading messie for it requires blatently ignoring that obvious past context.

i decided to vote
vote: messie,
as he'she is the most common choice, besides sabrar

this actually looks really good for a town!phillip argument because it seems like sabrar knows what hes doing and get a lot of focus on him in early game with this crew. if he is scum hiding being a follow the pack noobie strat, then him going messie here over town!Sabrar is a good look when both choices were viable

This town-phillip read has completely disappeared. Makhaira is back to calling for elim of phillip in their next post.

Combined with my team analysis above I'm pretty confident that the scum team is Makhaira+wam. I'm happy to go for either one toDay but I know messie is more willing to go for wam first so:

Vote wam

And that my friends is how the game is played.

[somitomi]

somitomi - Votes me D1 in a very OMGUS way (for phillip: Oh My God You Suck means someone reactively votes for the people voting them instead of actually trying to find scum). Votes me D2 despite being one of the players who should be understanding about my D1 routine. They are just going for easy targets.

Ok, guess the running gag of this game is people not knowing where my vote is, I didn't vote anyone since the day started. Gonna read the rest of the analysis now.

[Wam]

So it's been a long day and I had to read booms case a couple of times. I find the team analysis a bit winey but I say that about most team analysis. No self analysis as well I could argue for quite a few teams with boom in.

On the Makhira analysis that does stack up and I have found them sitting back a bit. Hence the earlier push on mak and others., I'm concerned the boom lynch is too easy and so far this game scum have been sitting back laughing.

However, despite having said all that , Im nervous about moving off boom and coming to regret it. Basically head says mak gut says boom. As this is my last post before deadline I'm happy with either boom or mak. So I'm going to vote mak as that leaves options for those around at deadline.

vote Makhira

[boomfrog]

huh.

[LaserGuy]

Vote Count 2.5

BoomFrog (3): Makhaira, Eido, phillip (L-2)
Wam (1): BoomFrog
Makhaira (1): Wam

Not voting: Mark_Cangila, messie, somitomi

Deadline in 7.5 hours

[somitomi]

So it's been a long day and I had to read booms case a couple of times. I find the team analysis a bit winey but I say that about most team analysis. No self analysis as well I could argue for quite a few teams with boom in.

Oh, please do if you can find the time. I actually don't see that many possible mates for Boomfrog. Also, I find Boom's case fairly convincing as well, but this feels like a surprisingly fast pivot.

Vote: Wam