Secret Santa Game Thread

[osieorb18]

Answering your question outright won't help me. What do you want me to be more specific about?

You suggesting that I'm trying to pocket Osie kind of lacks nuance? - like by the same argument you could say that every single read ever made on d1 is some kind of pocketing attempt is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?

Answering and being cooperative helps town
If answering don't help you that's concerning for me and is strengthening my impression you are scum

Pocketing has so many levels and feels manipulative (manipulation is a form of deceiving people and I have a 6th sense for it).
Every time a read on someone is wishy washy, for me rings a bell because that kind of read doesn't bother that player and his reaction is mild and they just don't care much about it.
Look at how Osie reacted at Bessie's accusations and at your read.
If you are scum like I suspect you don't need an enemy who can post walls so your read for Osie is a non read.

"Answering questions helps the town" is such a narrow statement. Understanding people's intentions and reading their alignments helps the town - I think you should already be able to work out the stuff you've been asking me and can't really discern why it's being asked so I don't think you approached me from a place of solving. So no, I don't think answering your questions was more helpful than trying to get more out of you.

Again your argument that pocketing is something manipulative means that like.... all you need is a degree of spin to view every interaction as pocketing. I think I'm fairly difficult to read accurately on day one so I'm p amenable to people seeing malice in benign stuff I do, but I am just not seeing what you're seeing.

p wary that you trying to convince me of Osie comes from a guilty mindset more often than a sincere one

Townie post.

[osieorb18]

Deadline is I think at 4am for me currently, so 5-6 good later would be nice, but whatever is fine.

@Wam - Similarly, at least a few hours later would be ideal for me.

[osieorb18]

Here he pretend I am a good townie and yes, I am not so bad but in this playerslist I don't think I am that badass.

Who's significantly better than you in this playerlist?

So me questioning him does not feel like I have an organic reasoning. That's a new mode to avoid me.

Organic means, if I can trust the Google dictionary, "characterized by gradual or natural development". If that's wrong please someone tell me because i will take it as correct.

So my questions didn't have natural development? How come?
I would say, at contrary, that my questions have the clearest organic reasoning behind them and the worst only wants to bamboozle me.
I asked, i didn't receive answer, I asked again, i received deflections.

It's not me in the wrong here, he is, and that's wolfy in mafia.

This interaction, particularly this post and another recent one from worst, townpings for me on both of you.

The worst feels like he's interpreting your questioning as something you've forced. As a way to fill up space. The worst doesn't understand the reasoning behind the questions being asked.

You feel like you're interpreting the worst's response as something personal. You don't understand the reasoning behind the worst's response.

Usually in these contexts, it's best to take a step back and reevaluate on both sides, since otherwise, you argue past one another. I believe that both of you are capable of finding common ground and understanding each other.

Here is the point where he don't even know where all this started because his only purpose was to make me give up.

And he is changing the subject to the pocketing Osie thing.

I'm not entirely sure of the thrust of your questioning myself, to be honest, but I think that your attitude surrounding it feels genuine. Can you maybe reiterate in a short summary what questions you're currently looking to be answered?

[osieorb18]

I think your reasoning for that vote is kinda towny though I can feel the "GOTCHA" moment reverberating from you

My second impression is I don't like this. It feels like, "you got me but I need to play this off.".

Also a townie post.

[moody7277]

--I find Oracle Boomfrog's distillation of the bessie v osie thing here to be undeniable. At this point I'm going to skim anything I see between those two.

--WMU going after the worst looks townie to me. Asking about reads is pretty basic, and him being squirrely about how he chose Madge and WMU for votables is a tick against him. The funny thing is it fitted in nicely to RV stage, but he chose to go a different direction.

--I really would like heury and Snide's eyes in here doing scumhunting too. Eliming lurkers D1 is ridiculous, so I'm not going there, I'll just fume about them.

[osieorb18]

Based on these signs I suggest you both drop the active lurking and role fishing parts of the case.

Let's go through this, I guess. My case on bessie is about her tireless misrepresentation of the points I've made in my posts.

What other parts are there to bessie's case besides "active lurking" or "role fishing"?

Well, I guess there's scumreading me for questioning her push on madge, the point that started this whole thing off. But scumreading me for asking a question as to her reasoning doesn't seem like enough to build a case around.

There's whatever she was FoSing me for on page 1, but my impression was that was just that she had an issue with me being social on page 1 (but not with anyone else being social on page 1). As you mentioned, this seems like a culture/playstyle difference and sorta fits into the "active lurking" accusation.

"Osie's not sorting" - Demonstrably false. I continue to sort every single player in the thread, whereas she has two declared scumreads, neither of which has solid reasoning behind it.
"Osie's not engaging with my case" - Demonstrably false. Similarly, I've engaged exponentially more with her case than she has with mine.

%%%

Not to mention that when I DID go through bessie's reasoning point by point, when I DID make a list of the variety misrepresentations of my posts that she had made, just in the first 3 pages of this game...

She dodged around the bulk of that list of misrepresentations by framing small parts of it as personal attacks and being pedantic about 4 small points, in most of which she did not argue against what I was actually saying.

Bessie has not accepted responsibility for her own misrepresentations any time this game—she clearly doesn't consider herself accountable for her own posts.

And the only engagement with my deconstruction of her posts that could remotely be considered to be in good faith is the pedantry about me putting myself as "Conf Town". Which, as I mentioned (quoted in spoiler), is ridiculous. Putting myself at the top of my own readlist as the only player who I know to be town isn't a scumtell for any player.

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Gotcha. So when I put myself at the top of a readlist, it's a notable "scumtell" to include when casing me? Do you think it's alignment indicative for someone to put themself at the top of their readlist? Should I have put myself at the bottom or middle? That seems counter-productive.

[osieorb18]

--I find Oracle Boomfrog's distillation of the bessie v osie thing here to be undeniable. At this point I'm going to skim anything I see between those two.

--WMU going after the worst looks townie to me. Asking about reads is pretty basic, and him being squirrely about how he chose Madge and WMU for votables is a tick against him. The funny thing is it fitted in nicely to RV stage, but he chose to go a different direction.

--I really would like heury and Snide's eyes in here doing scumhunting too. Eliming lurkers D1 is ridiculous, so I'm not going there, I'll just fume about them.

Scummy post.

[osieorb18]

you

Quoting for the sake of the ping.

@WakeMeUp - I see your case on the worst and at the very least I think you genuinely believe it. I'mma go back through things there; I have a townlean at the moment, but that could change.

What I'm wondering about, though, is your read on me at the moment. At times in this thread, you've seemed uncertain, at other times you seem to confidently talk about me as if you're 100% certain that I'm town (to the point of me thinking that it might be a slip), and at other times you've acted as if you're concerned about me. Which is it? What is your read on me at this time?

[The Snide Sniper]

So I have hardly anything to go off of thus far, but this in particular stuck out to me:

I'm active and I have some experience, so I can play decently as town, but my scum game is mostly non-existent.

Is anyone actually able to verify this? I think it might help in untangling the whole bessie/osie deal?

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

@osieorb18 i think i said i have a TR for you, and is not a locked read because i didn't have time to read through your posts, but basic logic tells me you are doing those walls as town.

I understand that me shamelessly pocketing you in past games gives you a level of mistrust hard to eliminate.

Yoi asked me something but i forgot because i am slightly dizzy (i have flu early symptoms and I boiled some red wine with cinnamon and drank a big hot cup of wine)

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

So I have hardly anything to go off of thus far, but this in particular stuck out to me:

I'm active and I have some experience, so I can play decently as town, but my scum game is mostly non-existent.

Is anyone actually able to verify this? I think it might help in untangling the whole bessie/osie deal?

I always saw Osie as villager
I don't remember his scum game even if I know i skimmed an Iso once

Links to old games can help here

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

Ah i remembered

You asked who plays better than me? A lot of people, butbthis is not a direction i will follow

[osieorb18]

So I have hardly anything to go off of thus far

Alarm bells.

I'm active and I have some experience, so I can play decently as town, but my scum game is mostly non-existent.

Is anyone actually able to verify this?

I've played games on (at the very least; I may have forgotten some communities...):

• MtGSalvation
• MyAnimeList's Mafia Colosseum Club
• Mafia Colosseum
• Mafia Universe
• DarkLordPotter
• Mafia451
• Smashboards
• [url=https://mafiathesyndicate.com]MafiaTheSyndicate
• Worstgen
• MafiaScum
• Bulbagarden

[osieorb18]

I'm active and I have some experience, so I can play decently as town, but my scum game is mostly non-existent.

Is anyone actually able to verify this?

I've played games on (at the very least; I may have forgotten some communities...):

• MtGSalvation
• MyAnimeList's Mafia Colosseum Club
• Mafia Colosseum
• Mafia Universe
• DarkLordPotter
• Mafia451
• Smashboards
• AnimeBase
• MafiaTheSyndicate
• Worstgen
• MafiaScum
• Bulbagarden

EBWODP: Fixed broken tag.

[osieorb18]

@osieorb18 i think i said i have a TR for you, and is not a locked read because i didn't have time to read through your posts, but basic logic tells me you are doing those walls as town.

I understand that me shamelessly pocketing you in past games gives you a level of mistrust hard to eliminate.

Hm. Okay.

because i am slightly dizzy (i have flu early symptoms and I boiled some red wine with cinnamon and drank a big hot cup of wine)

<3 Keep safe!

You asked me something but i forgot

[SNIPPED]

What's the purpose of the bolded sentence? Nvm you explained immediatly after...

How is useful to know someone is paranoid about someone in generating a healthy discussion about the game?
Ftr I am never affraid of anyone when I am town.

And from what I know that's a post a skilled mafia would make about a t/t fight.

Vote Madge

Could you go into detail on your thought process behind this post?

Here is the point where he don't even know where all this started because his only purpose was to make me give up.

And he is changing the subject to the pocketing Osie thing.

I'm not entirely sure of the thrust of your questioning myself, to be honest, but I think that your attitude surrounding it feels genuine. Can you maybe reiterate in a short summary what questions you're currently looking to be answered?

%%%

Damn... I was sorting by author and realized that Bessie has only 7 posts this game (after the host started the game), which go:

• Light poking towards madge
• Lashing out towards me in response to reasonable questioning.
• Light poking towards madge and continuing to lash out in response to reasonable questioning.
• Malignment wall. Madge has been forgotten.
• Series of misreps. Response to moody feels like "Oh yeah, I should probably pretend that I'm paying attention to more than just my miselim push."
• Series of misreps and self-victimization. Pretends to have done anything relevant in the direction of finding a read on Moody (or Madge for that matter).
• Starts out with some "active lurking" by her definition (any social activity). [-1] (lol)

Interesting how essentially the only instances other than the forgotten Madge scumread that Bessie has initiated interaction with a player other than me were a throwaway question to moody and then leaping onto the possibility that the worst might potentially scumread me. Kinda feels like she doesn't care about reading players other than me until after Day 1.

[bessie]

I’m here, a little early today but still having issues with my computer locking up, so I’ll try to cover as much as I can.


Unanswered questions

@WakeMeUp, can you answer this question:

Ftr NUF is a site where cool people are playing mafia

Can you give me more information, like the full name of the site? I don’t know what the abbreviation NUF stands for.

@Worst, can you reply to this:

The other part is like. Expanding on nonreads is not the kind of content I came here to produce. I'm happy to explain why I don't have a read on someone yet but I'm p sure its always going to be a snooze factory.

Expanding on Truly Null reads on the other hand

Well I would like to see you post some analysis today, so how about expanding on a null read?

New content

Bessie can you share reads for everyone else?

Yes. Reminder for everyone that doesn’t know me well, I have a very consistent style as either alignment so my style is NAI. I usually make one post a day (on weeknights; on weekends I have more time), where I review all the content since my previous post, and reply to any questions directed toward me, and to things I find interesting. I usually don’t do reads lists until after the game has been running for a few days and everyone has some content, so that I can consider the game content as a whole while I think about it. I’ll try to share some reads tonight in addition to my daily catch up post.

I'm getting the sense most of the player base are in a differnet time zone to me. I'm happy to move the deadline if that would be wanted? I could shift it up to 6 hours later?

Wam, with the time zone spread in this game (Madge in Australia and WakeMeUp in Europe) you’re not going to get a deadline that is fair to everyone so you should probably just set it whenever you can be there and call time. I would rather have a hard deadline than a soft deadline.

And I agree with BoomFrog, what he said here is what we should be doing anyway:

Personally I think it's best for us to hit majority before deadline instead of waiting for a last minute scramble.

Hi Worst! Are you referring to my thoughts on Osie or on Madge?

hiya bessie
I was asking abt osie

Ok, let me go back to the original quote so I can let you know what my thoughts were when I made it:

Interesting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.

Could you expand a bit on why that struck you as alignment indicative

I don’t know that ignoring when someone FoSs you is totally alignment indicative, but I do feel it is suspicious. I am a proponent of that when you vote, you should give a reason, and I find it odd that someone would accept a out-of-nowhere FoS (not quite a vote) without wanting to know why. I felt at the time that Osie could be scum, and that he didn’t question me on my FoS because he didn’t necessarily want to discuss what I may have found scummy about him. So the suspicion I had for Osie at that time has since been magnified by his reaction.

So do you agree with my observation that some of Osie’s early content could be considered active lurking?

Sure. I don't attribute malice to active lurking before the game has really gotten started.

I didn’t ask you your thoughts on active lurking, only if you agreed with me on what active lurking is, because it seems definitions are important when we have members of multiple communities that may have different conventions. But thank you for sharing your thoughts, I have noted them.

Tl;dr the worst didn't answer at my posts, and tried to turn against me my curiosity regarding the reason of his vote until he considered the first post was forgotten and I would give up.
I think he is scum.
What everyone thinks?

WakeMeUp, I feel that the first two quotes in your post were jokes by the Worst; the first because it is the kind of joke people usually make with an RVS vote, the second because it is just silly and not something any mafia player would say seriously. You understanding of English is great! But it could be that some of the subtle joking overtones are difficult to see to a non native speaker. Or to a native speaker that has no sense of humor, that is usually me.

I do agree with you that the Worst is deliberately looking for reasons not to answer. He is also looking for reasons not to give reads. Like, he won’t give a read of Osie because he claims he knows Osie too well to make a good read. But he also has not made reads of players he doesn’t know, so that is a fake excuse.

In my previous post I made note of two links because I am thinking about that interaction with Osie, and I think that it could be scum partners.



Ooooooo did Osie make another post about me me me! How unexpected!

Several other players have pointed out that your miselim push has taken over the thread, usually something which players may find irritating since it replaces, y'know, actual analysis.

My actual analysis is just fine. You should read it.

Repeating “misrepresentation“ and “miselim” in your posts doesn’t make it true.

Most people don't misrepresent the words of others ad nauseum in a friendly game.

Your “reasoning” that because I dared to express suspicion of you early it is OK for you to compare me to Q-Anon and anti-vaxxers is noted.

I have observed at least two games of Madge's on this forum since I hosted one and a friend was playing in another. I may have read one of Madge's games on Smashboards, but I might be confusing her with someone else on that front.

Madge has only played one game on this forum. You have no idea of her history and her mafia abilities, and it was very apparent to me when you made your post that the purpose was to buddy Madge when you referred to her as “a way better player than you as either alignment” (paraphrased).

--I find Oracle Boomfrog's distillation of the bessie v osie thing here to be undeniable. At this point I'm going to skim anything I see between those two.

Whatever, but please read my comment immediately preceding this one regarding Osie’s buddying on Madge and think about if you agree.


Oh wow another Osie post about me me me???

Bessie has not accepted responsibility for her own misrepresentations any time this game—she clearly doesn't consider herself accountable for her own posts.

Repeating “misrepresentations” in your posts doesn’t make it true.


Oh another Osie post about me me me! I wish <3BoomFrog<3 was as obsessed with me as you are.

Damn... I was sorting by author and realized that Bessie has only 7 posts this game (after the host started the game), which go:

I have never understood why a player’s post count is more important to some than what is in the post. BoomFrog used the phrase “lots of low calorie posts” and I like it. I usually only make 1-2 posts a day, but all my posts are hot fudge sundaes on a brownie. Maybe you should start looking at calories, not quantity.

Interesting how essentially the only instances other than the forgotten Madge scumread that Bessie has initiated interaction with a player other than me were a throwaway question to moody and then leaping onto the possibility that the worst might potentially scumread me. Kinda feels like she doesn't care about reading players other than me until after Day 1.

Hahaha my question to moody was not a throwaway question, it was completely serious, and I received a response, I have noted that response and how I interpret it.

Oh, and repeating “malignment” and “misreps” in your posts doesn’t make it true.


More later.

[moody7277]

Whatever, but please read my comment immediately preceding this one regarding Osie’s buddying on Madge and think about if you agree.

This post is the one of yours closest preceeding the Oracle Boomfrog post, and the only thing I saw like what you're talking about was Osie saying Madge is a better player than him, which if my impression of how much experience they have together is the same as yours makes it seem a little hyperbole. Maybe he was impressed by how well she fooled people as scum last game?

[bessie]

Moody, I was referring to the comment immediately preceding in the same post:

I have observed at least two games of Madge's on this forum since I hosted one and a friend was playing in another. I may have read one of Madge's games on Smashboards, but I might be confusing her with someone else on that front.

Madge has only played one game on this forum. You have no idea of her history and her mafia abilities, and it was very apparent to me when you made your post that the purpose was to buddy Madge when you referred to her as “a way better player than you as either alignment” (paraphrased).

But I think your response tells me what I wanted to know, thanks.



Woof

bessie – Labrador retriever and hot fudge sundae aficionado.

BoomFrog – Is BoomFrog.

WakeMeUp1337 – I think she is trying to solve the game, and that she has made many valid points.

Madge – Isn’t BoomFrog, Is Madge.

The Snide Sniper – Placeholder, he told us pre-game that he didn’t intend to be very active Day 1, but I expect something from him on Day 2. If the Snide Sniper does not post more and better content on Day 2, I will probably start considering that he may be newbie indie (again) that is not sure what to do.

moody7277 – Placeholder, I have some pings related to Osie’s initial read list and with some other interactions (or lack thereof), and with Moody’s light-for-him content (but not light enough to be a concern, yet).

heuristically_alone - Boop line. Boop.

the worst – Possible scum partners with Osie. He won’t give a read of Osie, and something about their interactions that I noted pings me.

osieorb18 – I think BoomFrog was on point when he speculated that Osie could be “scum frustrated that they are being pressured for bullshit that (they believe) wasn’t actually scummy”. I think Osie’s overreaction to my early suspicions and his subsequent content re-enforces this.

Grr

[boomfrog]

@The worst: why are you being intentionally disengaged? Do you plan to engage more in later game days?

[osieorb18]

I called out bessie for not thinking about other players so she made a post mostly thinking about other players lol. Self-conscious, much?

Still hasn't addressed any of the misrepresentations she's done.

Still hasn't engaged with any of my posts in good faith.

And now she's trying to make it out as scummy the fact that I'm casing my top scumread...

- "because I dared to express suspicion of you early" - Oh hey, another misrep. I never said that there was any issue with being suspicious of me. I said that there was an issue with repeated misrepresentations and not engaging in good faith.

- "I have never understood why a player’s post count is more important to some than what is in the post" - I went through the posts. This isn't relevant. I wasn't calling out the post count. I was calling out the poor content quality of them.

- "Hahaha my question to moody was not a throwaway question, it was completely serious, and I received a response," And then didn't follow up or publicly note anything. So any "I have noted" comment is, as far as the rest of us are concerned, rather suspect.

I have observed at least two games of Madge's on this forum since I hosted one and a friend was playing in another. I may have read one of Madge's games on Smashboards, but I might be confusing her with someone else on that front.

Madge has only played one game on this forum. You have no idea of her history and her mafia abilities, and it was very apparent to me when you made your post that the purpose was to buddy Madge when you referred to her as “a way better player than you as either alignment” (paraphrased).

I found Madge to be a very competent player in the game I hosted and while I guess she hosted the other game I thought she was in, I have gotten more than enough direct interaction to feel comfortable in making a hot meta analysis rather than whatever cold meta standard you were holding me towards.

[osieorb18]

You know what, fine. I'm not enjoying bessie's posting, but maybe she'll engage with direct questions. With her own style of quotewalls. Better faith attempt to engage on her terms than she's given me all game. Let's go post by post. And here I thought I was done with gish-gallops when I stopped moderating debate. *sigh*

Thanks Wam.

@bessie - Often when someone adds extra words like this to a post that could be just "confirm", it feels like unnaturally forced politeness. Is this just a normal response for you or some form of posturing?

That is enough to get the game going.

Boo.

@bessie - What was such a big deal here? What's the point of a public statement of this sort? Did you need more time to prepare something? What?

Confirm, thanks wam, love the flavour!

to what extent, if any, are we allowed to claim the roles we submitted? e.g. can we just say "i submitted a doctor" outright first thing D1? alternatively, if someone claims doc, can we say "oh yes i submitted that!"?

Madge, I don’t like your confirmation post. You asked a question that was already discussed in the signup thread here . And you were part of that discussion.

@bessie - In the signup thread, Madge was talking about a different aspect of the roles. You were the only person to talk about claims. And even then, the answer did not elaborate on the extent to which claiming a role would not be allowed. The way this is phrased, and the way in which you instantly got defensive about it later when asked about it, it sounds like you felt this was a big catch? Why, if so?

FoS osieorb18

@bessie - What at the time was your reasoning for this FoS, solely looking at the previous posts? This was at the bottom of page 1. So far at that point, I had been social in my start, and had poked a bit at WMU and the worst to get things going, as well as noting an early townping on TSS.

Madge, I don’t like your confirmation post. You asked a question that was already discussed in the signup thread here . And you were part of that discussion.

This is worded as if you're considering this to be alignment relevant?

I’m considering as to whether Madge’s post is alignment indicative. As I am considering every post and whether it is alignment indicative. Are you not doing the same?

@bessie - Why so defensive? I feel like the question I asked wasn't particularly aggressive.

Madge’s is a post to make a post, asking a question to which she already knows the answer. It is active lurking, as is most of your content thus far. Except for your post fishing for my opinion, and this bit of role fishing

@bessie - You mentioned deflection in a later post. Isn't that rather hypocritical given that based on you going on the defensive, you took my question as a scumread of you, and then deflected towards me from the topic of your read on Madge?

Also, what do you mean by "fishing for my opinion"? As I expressed earlier, I'm still very puzzled as to what that's supposed to imply outside of reframing asking you a question as a negative thing.

Do we have a maximum post count?

Unfortunately, it appears not.

@bessie - I had already answered this in a previous post. Had you not been caught up with the thread when you made this post?

Hi <3 BoomFrog <3 have you missed me me me?

@bessie - This seems somewhat forced. Why specifically reach out to boomfrog here? You have at least moderate experience with several other players in the thread. Was madge's confirmation post so suspicious as to not be similarly enthusiastic to play with her? Do you have beef with moody or sniper? You hadn't said any such greeting to either of them, either. And it's not like boomfrog reached out to you in their posts, either. So this just seems rather out-of-nowhere.

Howdy neighbour! I am town this time, promise

Bessie the reason for the question is I don't recall having a firm answer in sign ups from Wam AND I di see it in the rules so I wanted to be sure that everyone knew the score. If you tunnel on me for that then I am sorry but I refuse to engage further.

Is that a TOWN CLAIM??? [-1]

@bessie - You make the "I am town" out to be a big deal, but then you don't follow through with your original question here. Why? What happened to your read there?

You seem to do this "Is that a TOWN CLAIM???" thing a lot throughout the thread, as if to make it memetic. I've usually seen this sort of behaviour from scum trying to call out easy derptells. Why is someone openly hinting that they are town such an important tell for you above most other tells?

I don't usually use posts from prior to the start of the game to determine someone's alignment. I figured you might have been joking about that as far as alignments were concerned, but if you were serious about it, then it's a bit of an odd push. Like, you're pushing someone for forgetting an element of the rules before the repeatedly-delayed game has started?

Everything in the game thread is content (with the exception real life issues/info posts), including confirmation posts. Players are not allowed to make posts with possible alignment-indicative content, then later say “well that doesn’t count I wasn’t really playing yet."

@bessie - What do you feel is indicative of Madge's alignment in her asking in her confirmation post for further detail on rules on claiming what role she submitted?

And yes I am dead serious. How is this an odd push? Madge knows why I pushed her on this. Odd because I am pushing for content? Or odd that I am serious on Page 1?

@bessie - Okay, Madge knows why you pushed her on this. Can you explain to the rest of us why you pushed her on it? Can you explain why you no longer seem to think it's important? What changed? Why are you defensive over this when your behaviour hasn't been called scummy for it, just unusual?

Nah. I'm not trying to get Sniper to tell me anything about their role. I'm noting that if that's a softclaim, it's probably townie. Besides, if I was trying to solve on roles, why the hell would I put it in the thread as a wolf?

Is that a WOULD I DO THIS AS SCUM post??? [-1]

See earlier comment about derptells.

Why even note that it may be a soft claim unless you want to open discussion on it? The Snide Sniper is a newer player. Since you brought up the “would I do this as scum” argument, I will offer a response that I think the townie thing to do might be to ignore it and move on, not push for more information.

@bessie - Isn't the answer to your question here self-evident? As I explicitly stated, I wasn't pushing for more information. I had marked that post as a town-ping for TSS due to the manner in which they made it. If I was pushing for more information, I'd push for more information. There was a whole page and a half between TSS's post and your comment about rolefishing. I didn't push for more information at any point in that page and a half. Why would keeping a townping closer to my chest be more townie than sharing my analysis of someone's alignment with the thread?

Interesting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.

@bessie - Why phrase this paragraph in the manner that you did? It feels very much like shade, particularly given that your vote is not on me at the time of the post.

Why shade me about not responding to the FoS rather than asking me directly as to why I didn't respond? When I flip town, that just makes you look more suspicious.

What had you felt that I hadn't addressed out of your case? Did you feel you hadn't provided your case in your previous post? If so, what was left of your case that hadn't been provided?

Ok, where was I? You know I do miss how Smashboards numbers posts.

@bessie - I am very aware that this is a bit hypocritical given my own writing style, but how is this helpful other than announcing to the thread that you are writing your post as stream of consciousness? And even then, what benefit is there to town for you to announce that in this manner?

I wouldn't usually consider confirmation posts to be part of the game, given that they are prior to when the host has declared the game to start. That said, in this context, it is understandable to do so since there is no explicit rule stating they cannot be used, and they were after the role PMs had been sent out. It's just not where I would expect people to be looking.

We used to have a legendary player that could catch scum based on their confirmation posts. Someday I hope to ascend to his level.

@bessie - You certainly aren't shy about putting in the effort to make long posts. I feel like if this was an organic thought, you would at least put a pretense of effort into doing the work to analyze each confirmation post, not just the one question in Madge's confirmation post. Did nothing else stand out in the confirmation posts? Did you do the analysis for them? If so, why not put your notes on that analysis in the thread? There's at least five distinct posts made there amongst the 6 players other than yourself who confirmed. Seems like plenty to at least come up with some theories, even if you won't get a perfect idea of the whole game out of it.

Is that a WOULD I DO THIS AS SCUM post??? [-1]

No, it's a legitimate question. I would assume... (goes and checks) and have checked and confirmed that "Players with chats can chat at any time.=" is in the OP. So if Mafia can chat at any time, why would they bother putting notes on claims in the thread?

No, it is totally a “would I do this as scum” post. Your literally said “why the hell would I put it in the thread as a wolf?” And you should reread my entire reaction (an subsequent posts), not just the part you quoted. I’m not pointing out that you are putting notes in thread. I am accusing you of rolefishing.

@bessie - If I'm clearly not interpreting what you said in the way you intended, correcting what I've stated about something that isn't what you said doesn't seem to support discussion in good faith. You are stating two things here. First, that I didn't address what you said, and second, that my response is wrong in terms of what you said. But my response isn't related to what you said, by your own statement. You can see that as you said, I wasn't engaging on rolefishing. I didn't think of my post for a second as rolefishing, just as a townping. So why correct a therefore irrelevant response about notetaking of claims in terms of rolefishing that you yourself have mentioned aren't pertinent to said response?

Similarly, why assume malice when there's no reason not to believe that I'm working off of an unreliable narration (my own interpretation) of your concern?

Why even note that it may be a soft claim unless you want to open discussion on it? The Snide Sniper is a newer player. Since you brought up the “would I do this as scum” argument, I will offer a response that I think the townie thing to do might be to ignore it and move on, not push for more information.

I noted that it might be a townie post. Especially with the information that Sniper is a newer player, I'm relatively townleaning them for that post.

Oh ok, here’s more of my response. So you’re saying that because you’re townreading Snide Sniper, you cant be rolefishing him? Please explain how one implies the other.

@bessie - Where does this interpretation come from? Why interpret "My post was noting a townie post, AND rolefishing was nowhere near my mind" as "My post was noting a townie post, THEREFORE rolefishing cannot be what I was doing"? The latter isn't what I said. What's the purpose of changing the meaning of my words here? Did you just misinterpret what I said? Why not admit that later on when I pointed it out?

Interesting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.

I noted it, but I don't bother going on the defensive in that way. It's a waste of time in my experience. If you had expressed a case, it would be one thing, but you haven't, so I'm waiting for you to actually put content behind the statement. If you don't, then that's also something to note.

You only reply to cases, and not to player accusing you of being suspicious? Well I don’t do cases, however I will analyze your posts.

@bessie - You originally seemed to make this out to be a big deal, and were complaining about me not addressing why you found me suspicious, as if you had put it into the thread. But when I asked for further content in regards to your case, you ALSO made that out to be a big deal, as if it was a huge inconvenience to provide that. Why? This is a social team game. If another player whose alignment you theoretically wouldn't know is asking you for you to explain your reads, especially when you had previously complained about them not doing so, why are you acting so put upon when you have seemingly gotten what you wanted?

Post 1 : Confirm. [0]
Post 2 : Active lurking, contentless post. First post of game. [0]
Post 3 : RVS. Making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post. [-1]

@bessie - For someone who complained about others judging on quantity of posts rather than quality, you seem to certainly care a lot about someone splitting up two social posts at the start of a game into separate posts. What gives? Also, if you yourself are labeling my confirm post as not being the first post of the game, why were you so surprised and defensive when I asked as to why you were analyzing confirm posts that were before the start of the game?

Post 4 : Since Osie denies this post contains a breadcrumb (see Posts 5 and 6) this is active lurking. Post for the sake of posting. [-1]

@bessie - Is establishing rapport in a social manner scummy? Why? If you go to a party, do you get offended if someone acts social towards you in greeting?

Post 5 : Denies Post 4 is a breadcrumb. [0]

@bessie - This was a notable interaction as far as I'm concerned. I explain to moody that my previous post was being social. Why is it so unimportant to you in terms of determining alignment of either myself or moody? If it is relevant to you, then why not post that analysis in the thread?

Post 6 : Reply to the worst re Post 4, and buddying? [-1]

@bessie - What about that post is buddying? If the potential for buddying is not the only thing about the post that was scummy, then what else was scummy, and why? As revealed multiple times throughout the thread, I'm much closer to the worst socially outside of the game than to any other player there, even WMU. Do you feel being social to a close friend is somehow unusual or scummy? How do you reconcile that with your greeting to Boomfrog?

Post 7 : Rolefishing, opening the door to speculate on a possible Snide Sniper soft claim. Also making a second post where the content could have been included in the previous post (related thoughts). [-1]

@bessie - Clearly I'm not originally from the same forum mafia background as you. You've definitely seen me in other games enough to realize this. Again, you're going after quantity as a scumtell, when you yourself have complained about it. Not even going into the accusation of rolefishing, which has been addressed repeatedly now, I'm also not the only player in this community to split my posts up instead of making a long quote wall. When that's clearly a matter of playstyle, is it really a scumtell?

Post 8 : Inside joke to WakeMeUp. Also makes an early association with WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [Note I do not know what NUF is.] [-1]

@bessie - What's scummy about this post? Again, I'm being social, and WakeMeUp is the other person I know best in the thread beyond the worst. Why would it be strange for us to have social banter early on in the thread about past games? I've certainly never seen a community where that was a scumtell, and that includes this one.

Post 9 : Reply/joke to the worst. Possible buddying. [0]

@bessie - I feel like a broken record, but again, what's wrong with being social here?

Post 10 : Another double post that could have been part of the previous post. Ironically accuses the Worst of buddying WakeMeUp. [-1]

@bessie - This post was actually a social post jokingly accusing the worst of trying to pocket me, not anybody else. Buddying WMU isn't relevant. Did you misread or is something else going on here?

Post 11 : Reply/question to bessie re Madge’s confirmation post ( I responded to this in another post). This is a valid question. [+1] However, note that Osie does not question my FoS of him that was in the same post. [-1]

@bessie - It didn't feel like you felt like it was a valid question given that you were defensive about it. If you felt it was valid, why go hard on the defensive?

Also, we'd already discussed that I wouldn't respond to a naked FoS as either alignment. On top of that, how is not responding to a naked FoS a scumtell? If anything, being self-conscious about that naked FoS seems scummier; a response feels almost like OMGUS.

Post 12 : Joke reply to the worst with a vote for him. [0]
Post 13 : Reply/joke to WakeMeUp. Second attempt of association with this game and WakeMeUp’s wolf meta. [-1]

@bessie - You make it sound like this is distinct from the rest of the social interaction. It's a "second attempt", separate from the "first attempt". Why, when it so clearly is part of the same conversation, and so clearly being social and joking around with someone who is a friend outside of the game? What is scummy about having friends?

Post 14 : Reply/joke to the worst. [0]
Post 15 : Reply to WakeMeUp, game rules. [0]

@bessie - Why are these posts not alignment indicative? What makes them distinct from other social posts I'd made thus far? If you felt that I was "active lurking", why wouldn't these also be scummy as part of that?

Post 16 : Reply to bessie (I responded to this in another post). I like that Osie responded to my questions [+1], even if I find the answers suspicious (see here for reasons). [-1]

@bessie - I thought you felt (in a later post) that I hadn't engaged with why you found me suspicious. Were your questions at this point unrelated to sorting me? What was their purpose if not developing your read on me?

Also, how does that first response in the linked post have anything to do with expressing suspicion towards my answer? You were continuing to respond to my questioning of you. You were on the defensive.

Post 17 : Reply to BoomFrog. Information. [0]

@bessie - My post there is not just social. The first part is very explicitly questioning why boomfrog is asking others for meta on me when they themselves had meta on me. Is that not alignment indicative to you, and if so, why?

Post 18 : The post I’m responding to now. Some legit comments [+1], some deflection (see above). [-1]

@bessie - Which are which? Why? Why had you yet to talk about deflection at this point in time? If you had expressed "I feel like this is deflection", and explained why, I, like anyone else, would have responded to improve conversation between the two of us. But you didn't. Why are you so hesitant to have productive conversation? Do you feel that clear communication is a bad thing for town? If so, why?

Post 19 : Unvote. Early town scum list [+1] with reasons. [+1]

@bessie - What about posting that list is townie? What about the reasons are townie? Why would this be more or less townie than whatever scum points you've enumerated?

Re content of post:

Bessie shading me for "active lurking" when there were less than 40 posts since start of game and 4 out of 9 players (Heury/Boom/Moody/Sniper) hadn't really posted significant content is bugging me even more than her looking at posts prior to game start for alignment, but I could see this being trying to draw blood from a stone like I sometimes do.

Ok, you’re seriously trying to tell me that I can’t have a read on you for your content, that I’m only supposed to have a read on you in relation to everyone else?? I’m looking for scum, not looking for the scummiest. And I get the feel from your posts that you are looking for the scummiest, not looking for scum. [-1]

@bessie - I can see that you may not have understood my reasoning in my post, but I was calling out the fact that you didn't seem to be solving other players, especially when I had more substantive content to further my ability to read other players than anybody else in the thread at that time. Why are you flying off the handle in response to someone scumreading your behaviour? Why distort what I said into saying that you couldn't have a read on me that wasn't comparative? How did you get that from my post, when the actual meaning of my post was primarily that you were not reading other players at all and that I actually had a decent amount of productive content? Why not respond to those points in good faith? What gave you the impression that I was looking for the scummiest? What gave you the impression that I wasn't looking for scum?

Heh, IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM??? [-1]

@bessie - How does this sort of question help you to sort me or anyone else? How does it help other people to understand it when you place it outside of context?

Madge - I like their entrance, and bessie may have TMI'd them.

Explain.

@bessie - If I clearly scumread you, and clearly don't agree with your reasoning for scumreading someone else, then what is there to explain in regards to me thinking that you may have TMI'd that player?

The Snide Sniper - The way they entered the thread puts them on the townie edge of null and bessie may have TMI'd them.

Explain.

@bessie - As I'd already stated, my early post in response to TSS was me stating a townping from TSS. In addition, you were adamant that I was trying to rolefish them, which implies that you are certain they are town. What was unclear about that? Why did you feel an explanation was needed? It's perfectly acceptable to not see that, but if you didn't recognize that, then why put "Explain" by itself as a command in the way you did? How does that contribute to productive conversation?

Scumlean:
moody7277 - Just a ping off of their entrance; it feels a bit forced.
bessie - I'm paranoid that bessie appears to be, either intentionally or not, trying to do one of the standard styles I've seen from scum of taking small things and blowing them out of proportion to form a series of tunnels instead of trying to read people organically. She could just be drawing blood out of a stone, but I need to see more to feel comfortable with that sort of a read.

Vote: moody7277

You have a ping from Moody, and a genuine scum read of me. Why aren’t you voting for me? [-1]

@bessie - I ended my point on you with "I need to see more". As such, what does using my vote on you give me at that point? Voting for moody puts pressure on a slot that had done decidedly little. It's still early in the Day phase. Voting for you doesn't maximize the use of different forms of pressure to solve different slots. Why would I go linearly all-in on one person when, to use your wording, I'm looking for scum, not the scummiest?

I liked Moody’s entrance and had a town feel from it, however, if Osie is scum I will look to this post. Osie has no reason to put a serious vote down on Moody; it feels forced. It could be early distancing. [-1]

@bessie - What about that vote made it a serious vote? If you felt Moody was townie, why is my interaction with him so much more significant? As mentioned, I was already directly interacting with you, which provided me information. What is scummy about me trying to solve multiple scum slots at the same time, especially in a small game like this one?

Post 20 : Semi offer to switch to bessie.

I'm more than happy to switch to bessie, but don't see it being useful to grow a wagon there until mid-Day if my overall gut judgment of their playstyle is correct.

Your wording is interesting. You seem less concerned that I am scum than in trying to eliminate me. [-1]

@bessie - What about my wording suggests that I'm not concerned with you being scum? I've very clearly stated that I wanted to see more from you. I'm very clearly stating here that my read on you might be coloured by your playstyle, and that as such, it will be more helpful for me to consider you further. Where in that post is this hard drive to eliminate you regardless of alignment that you are describing? Even if I wasn't using my vote as a tool instead of just for the purpose of cementing an elimination, I'm voting for someone else at that point. How does that imply that I'm trying to eliminate you rather than sort you first?

Post 21 : Completely rational question. Welcome to the paradox that is Madge. [+1]

@bessie - Why would this be more or less townie than whatever scum points you've enumerated? Given that I've already implied that I have some familiarity with Madge's personality and playstyle, then where does "Welcome to the paradox that is Madge" come from?

are we out of RVS? I never can tell

this vote means "HOW DARE YOU, BESSIE" with a side of animal fries

Yes. It appears Osie made a serious vote at the bottom of the previous page.

@bessie - How is this any less "active lurking" than any of the comments you'd called me out for making? Why assume that my vote was serious without asking me first?

Sorry Heury that you missed RVS. I was waiting for you.

@bessie - How is this any less "active lurking" than any of the comments you'd called me out for making? If we accept that you're assuming my vote was serious, why shade me for that? Even if you're not calling it scummy, you're still implying that I've done something bad because you would have waited had I not jumped the gun in your eyes, so to speak.

Vote: osieorb18

@bessie - Given that I was your top scumread for so long, why did it take this long for you to vote for me? You've expressed that you expect people to vote for their top scumread and not somebody else. You've implied that using one's vote as a tool to sort people other than their top scumread is scummy. And yet here you've been doing the same thing. Why?

And again, I ask "Why would someone just put out there in the thread that they think that someone's softclaim is town as a form of rolefishing? How does that signify rolefishing?" Asking about it would be one thing. But I didn't ask about it. Expressing interest in it beyond just "This is townie" would be another. But I didn't. I literally just said "This is townie."

Ok. You didn’t ask a direct question (Hey Sniper are you a BOMB??), however, you threw out an observation and tried to provoke a discussion (“ Softclaiming a killing role is... townie?”).

@bessie - Why assume that I was trying to provoke a discussion? What about discussion of an early game townping is scum-favourable? If the point is that you thought that I was rolefishing, how would it benefit me to be so blatant, especially in a game with at least two players that I know are much stronger players than I am and that would likely call me out were I to attempt such a discussion?

It feels like you wanted to see rolefishing so you're creating motivation where none exists.

Deflection.

@bessie - Am I not allowed to express a scumread on you? How is this deflection? How are all of the other parts of my scumread on you not deflection? Is this your way of saying that my scumread on you is correct, just outside of this part of my read?

Oh ok, here’s more of my response. So you’re saying that because you’re townreading Snide Sniper, you cant be rolefishing him? Please explain how one implies the other.

Again, this feels like an intentional misinterpretation of my posts. I said that "All I said in this post was that the post I read felt town indicative." That does not equate to "If I townread someone I can't rolefish them."

First two misrepresentations are free. Another one, not so much.

The more you pretend that you don’t know what rolefishing is, the more convinced I am that I am correct.

@bessie - Where in that post did I pretend that I didn't know what rolefishing is? Where in other posts before that post did I pretend that I didn't know what rolefishing is?

Interesting how whenever you reply to me you brush of my content as just wrong, and you don’t even try to figure out my point of view.

@bessie - Do you have specific examples in regards to this? Isn't this a bit hypocritical given that I'd been calling out your posts for pretty much the same thing? How does this shade help you form a read on me? If you're town, how does this shading help to facilitate communication with me? How does this shading help to facilitate communication with other town players?

You only reply to cases, and not to player accusing you of being suspicious?

Yep!

Ok. How very townie of you.

@bessie - How is this a productive comment to make? Did you know that sarcasm does not translate well on the internet? Why would you make a sarcastic comment in a game in which one of the players has stated that English is not her first or second language? How does being aggressively sarcastic in this way help you to ascertain alignments or communicate at all, for that matter?

Ah I see you are trying to do a malignment wall, where a player, typically scum, goes into a PBPA another player's ISO with the intention of reading as much negative intent as they possibly can into the posts, with a few positives thrown in here and there for appearances. Here's the thing: I'm practiced at that. I used to do that a lot. And then realized, in part from feedback from several people, that assuming malice in people's posts, especially when it wasn't there, was not only not a worthwhile strategy but also wasn't very fun.

Hahaha, so... I’m scumreading you, so it must be malice, not simply wrong? Which one of us is the one creating malice in other people’s posts, and which one of us is trying to figure out the game? [I don’t know what PBPA is.]

@bessie - Where in that quote did I suggest that you were being malicious, rather than that you were assuming that I had malicious intent as scum? What about my posts makes you feel I'm creating malice in the posts of others? What about my posts makes you feel that I'm not trying to figure out the game? If you don't know what PBPA means, why respond to this paragraph as if you're certain that you're responding to the correct meaning? Doesn't that just increase your chance of responding with a misunderstanding?

The thing with a malignment wall is that it's not only a gish-gallop, but it's a non-productive gish-gallop, since the logic behind it is intrinsically fallacious; it's irrational. So it's not really worth going through it point by point. And it often frustrates the hell out of the irrational player to just be dismissed as "you went into someone's posts with an intention for bias, and congrats, you succeeded at your bias." But that's all a malignment wall is. So as dismissive as it is, I'mma just handwave it away for what it is.

And I’mma gonna quote this post when you flip scum.

@bessie - Again, how does this aggression help you to communicate with anybody? Also, you refuse to entertain any possibility that you might be wrong. Does an offhanded aggressive comment towards a scumread help you to sort them? Do you think that it helps the rest of us to sort you in the way you'd want us to sort you?

I do think the act of doing a malignment wall does push you over the edge for me though.

Vote: Bessie

Nice you found a reason to move your serious vote off of moody.

@bessie - Again, how does this sarcastic aggression help you out? At this point in the game, I hadn't even made any of the few comments for which you had declared that I was being rude. Why escalate discussion this way into being less pleasant through aggression? How does this help you as either alignment, particularly as town?

Also, I had a serious scumread on you already at this point. You even called it more serious than my scumread on Moody. I didn't need a reason to move my vote to you. Why say that I "found a reason"? I had that reason long before. Why assume that my vote on Moody was a serious one?

Misquoting Phantom Menace, "Random voting stage was short."

Yep it’s over. Where are your snap reads?

@bessie - Does Moody usually have snap reads by the point that the thread is immediately after RVS? What does this question do for you in sorting Moody? What does mentioning that RVS is over AGAIN do for you in sorting Moody? Why is this part of your big wallpost about me?

Ninja'd by BoomFrog while I was typing this out.

@bessie - So was the question "Where are your snap reads?" irrelevant? BoomFrog didn't ask that question. If you'd read BoomFrog's posts (which you'd have to have done to include the "Ninja'd" comment in your own post), then why explain that RVS was over and not just ask the question? Why not respond to BoomFrog's posts? Were you not trying to sort BoomFrog?

I’m here! Anything interesting happen while I was at work? Is anyone talking about me me me?

@bessie - How is this helpful to include? It feels like making a comment for the sake of making a comment. If it was a separate post (as many other players might do), you might call it active lurking. Also, why are you focused specifically on people talking about you? Isn't that more of a scum mindset?

I would love to have a discussion on your point of view, but any such discussion requires us to come into the discussion in equally good faith with an equal understanding of the various posts in question, and given that you've been constantly and blatantly misrepresenting me, I don't see that happening. I want to believe that this is just you feeling like you've caught onto something, but it honestly just feels intentional as a way to irritate people.

So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?

@bessie - Why interpret "constantly" as "all"? They mean two different things. Why interpret "people" as "Osie"? They mean two different things. Why not ask for more detail on those specific wordings if you aren't certain of their meaning in context? Given that I'd expressed frustration with you misrepresenting my wording, why were you not being more cautious or thorough about communicating? Why do you choose to continue to maintain a standard of misunderstandings? Does that help you to communicate with others? Does that help you to understand the motivations of others? To formulate reads on them?

No. Again, I didn't say that. Again, you're misrepresenting my words. In this case you're even explicitly stating that you don't know what I meant, and that you're applying a meaning of your own construction.

I said very specifically "A malignment wall [is a technique] where a player, typically scum, goes [Post-By-Post Analyzing (PBPA) through] another player's ISO [with a preformed bias], and then throws in positives here and there for appearances."

You went through every one of my posts and said "I find this negative" over and over again. That's not hard to do.

I didn’t know what you meant by the abbreviation “PBPA”. Now I know you meant “post by post analyzing” and its something I used to do a lot on xkcd, where we had longer games with much lower content levels.

And you’re correct; it wasn’t that hard to read through your posts and find many of them negative, because as I read your posts I felt that your content was suspicious. Your posts are the reason I have a scum read on you.

@bessie - Given that you didn't know the meaning, why would you apply a meaning of your own construction? How does it benefit you, if you are town, to presume that someone is scum when going through their ISO, rather than go through their ISO and then formulate a read? You had said prior that you didn't do cases. Do you just not explain your reads at all? Because a case in the context of mafia is just an explanation of your read. If you felt so adamantly prior to making the PBPA that the vast majority of my posts were scummy, why would it be difficult to explain your read on me before making the PBPA? Did the PBPA actually help you sort me at all? If it did, how? If it didn't, then could that perhaps be due to the fact that you went into it with the intention to scumread me no matter the results of the PBPA?

Ya know, after over a decade of forum moderation, I can pretty much tell that a person won't learn anything from me saying "What you're doing is wrong/unenjoyable/illogical" when they repeatedly double down. It's like talking to a typical anti-vaxxer or Q-Anon believer. They're convinced that they cannot ever be in the wrong as a person, even when acting obnoxious and illogical in the process of trying to make their argument.

Interesting. And quite rude. I guess I’m the Q-anon anti-vaxxer in your simile?

@bessie - As I mentioned earlier, I tend to use metaphors in my speech. I had already brought up that you were using a "gish-gallop" style of a long series of points that you then insist aren't addressed unless people go through them point by point. This is a standard frustrating technique that people who want to make others miserable use for debates, not a technique for forming reads or playing enjoyably in mafia games.

I then brought up that you were doubling down on something that was commented to be wrong and unenjoyable. As such, the context is not saying that you are similarly abhorrent to an anti-vaxxer or Q-anon believer. I apologize for it coming across in that manner. You had at this point repeatedly made statements that reframed my words as something they were not, what I would call misrepresenting me given that it seemed to be intentional.

If it was not, if it was a series of legitimate misinterpretations instead, then doubling down on them is still illogical. If someone has pointed out repeatedly that you are not representing them correctly, why double down on that representation, whether or not the inaccuracy was intentional? How does that make the game more enjoyable for others? How does that help you to sort people or communicate with them in good faith?

Yes, there is a degree of frustration in me making a metaphor about evil conspiracy theorists. How does it further the game for you to continue to maintain poor communication with me at that point? You're not sorting me, realistically. You haven't analyzed my frustration, or any of the rest of my motivation. You've just thrown "You're wrong and that means you're scum" into the thread over and over. Why are you playing this way? Why do you think that this is a productive and enjoyable strategy as either alignment?

What serious vote? A vote with less than 50 posts in the game on someone who had made one post? My vote for you is my first serious vote this game.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, you are claiming your vote for moody in this post is not serious. Please correct me if I misunderstand because this affects my read of Moody so I want to be clear on it.

@bessie - Are you basing your read of Moody on anything other than my posts? Are you basing any of your reads on anything other than my posts? If this question helped you to determine Moody's alignment, why didn't you follow through with either some sort of discussion of your read or any other resulting conclusion? Why, if you are town, are you hiding your conclusions from the rest of us? What is your current read on Moody? How did the answer to your question affect that read?

The worst, WakeMeUp, and Madge are way better players than me as either alignment.

How many games have you played with Madge?

@bessie - You've suggested that I'm really obvious scum. That it's easy to determine my alignment and that my reads this game aren't worth anything. How does that fit with questioning me saying that other players are better than me? How did this question help you determine my alignment? Anybody else's alignment?

Could you expand a bit on why that struck you as alignment indicative

Hi Worst! Are you referring to my thoughts on Osie or on Madge?

@bessie - The worst had quoted a specific post. Why even ask this and not just answer both versions of the question? Why does the worst get this special treatment of you asking for clarification rather than just interpreting their post however you feel fit? Why are you trying harder to communicate well with the worst than with other people?

I think expressing a null/town read on someone and then voting them is the most sensible thing I've seen in a game of mafia.

bessie hmmm.PNG

@bessie - What is this image supposed to communicate? Do you feel that this post from the worst should be taken seriously? If so, why? If this image is a joke, how is that any different from any of what you've called "active lurking" from my posts?

More interesting? Maybe. Definitely less enjoyable. I suppose this is probably the second or third cringiest, most blatant series of misrepresentations formed into a push on me I've seen outside of games with the twins.

I’m not sure if you think you are insulting me by “putting me down” at the level of the twins, but as I like and admire the one of them that I have played with before, I will take this as a compliment.

Does Wisp know you talk about him like this?

@bessie - Even regardless of presuming that I find games with the twins unenjoyable (which I do not; they are close friends and a delight to play with, hence why I invite them to most games that I play or host), how is this question (and thinly-veiled OGI threat) remotely related to this game? Like, it's one thing to be aggressive in your posts, but what do you expect to gain out of this escalation into personal territory that has nothing to do with the game? This is just disgusting. If you are "serious about the integrity of the game", to use your words, then why the hell are you making a post like this?

"Osie's active lurking" - I'd had the most posts as someone being social in RVS but also trying to shift us relatively quickly out of RVS.

I didn’t say you were lurking. I said you were active lurking. There’s a difference between the two.

@bessie - I can see where you may have misinterpreted this point. The point I was making was not primarily that I had the most posts, but that I was being social and trying to shift out of RVS. That I was contributing serious content and that "active lurking" was not an accurate or fair way to describe my posts. How does the condescension of that last sentence help you to form reads or to communicate clearly and productively?

This is already a TERRIBLE progression to have on someone; the case is shifting when called out. She came into the game with the intention to miselim me, so by hook or by crook, she's gotta scumread me! And in typical gish-gallop style, bessie has already called me out for not addressing each individual point made in her posts.

That’s a pretty serious accusation there. You are saying that I came into the game with the intention to eliminate someone in particular. Can you clarify as to when you believe I made this decision in relation to the timeline of the game? Because you obviously don’t know me at all or you would know how serious I am about the integrity of the game. Oh, and bolding something doesn’t make it true.

@bessie - This has already been explained, but why leap to assuming that I'm talking about pre-game? The more standard interpretation would be that I was talking about you formulating your posts, which would have happened after the game had already started. Also, why assume that I'm bolding it to suggest that it's true. I'm using bolding to delineate different sections of my post, as one does when they make a long post in the way that I do. Again, this feels like you wanted to find something negative in a reasonable statement, and therefore did, rather than interpreting the statement in good faith. I don't think this was something you planned before the start of the game. But your posts do not read as genuine, and I'm not the only person to note this.

[*] "IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM???" - What? I can't tell what this is referring to and even if I could, there's nothing in that quote that remotely resembles saying nakedly "I'm town".

Interesting, it’s right here:

Conf Town:
osieorb18 – Myself

@bessie - What is scummy about putting oneself at the top of a readlist? If it's not a big deal, then why perpetuate this poor communication in the form of this meme of sorts that you keep on repeating? Or is town claiming one of the number one scum tells by which you sort people? Why didn't you distinctly quote the relevant part of the text earlier to make it clear to what you were referring? Why are you acting like this should have been obvious when it clearly was not?

Bessie's just scum here. And like, if she was Town, this push is SO wrong, SO laden with bad faith, SO obnoxiously misrepresenting, that it would probably be better for us if she was not playing the game.

Oh rude. And borderline something. You want me gone? Then vote me out, night kill me, or take it up with the mod. But don’t try to imply that I don’t belong here.

@bessie - As explained earlier, this IS a push for you to be voted out. This is not "This person doesn't belong." Again, do you see why this would feel like choosing to read the worst possible interpretation of my words? Whether or not it is the case, I will presume that your statement here was made in good faith. As such, I apologize for the misunderstanding, should it exist.

Hmm, after more thought I think like it. I should make this my sig.

@bessie - If your frustration is genuine, this sort of flippant comment really doesn't support that. Why post this, especially mid-game? What does this contribute?

More in a bit. I’m having trouble with my computer locking up and it’s taking a long tome to make replies.

@bessie - I get that making long wall posts in which you combine what would otherwise be multiple posts into one is something that you've adopted as a style, but especially if you're having difficulty posting them due to your computer locking up, maybe that's a reason to separate them out into more posts? That's certainly not something that I would find scummy. If anything, it makes it easier to read your posts, and facilitating communication is townie, no?

[osieorb18]

holy crap why did i agree to this game.

Because we wouldn’t let you mod two Secret Santa games in a row.

@bessie - Isn't this just a social comment? Why are you doing the "active lurking" style of posts that you've called out as being scummy?

Ftr NUF is a site where cool people are playing mafia

Can you give me more information, like the full name of the site? I don’t know what the abbreviation NUF stands for.

@bessie - NUF is Novel Updates Forum. It is a social-casual mafia site that typically does 48/24 phases and relatively experimental setups. How does learning more about the site help you to form or relay your reads/analysis, though? Or is this another social comment?

If you consider "FoS osieorb18" to be tunneling... Given that I was the first person to question bessie at all. If anything, I had the gall to question what she was doing and she took that as an excuse to expand one of her scummy feelers into a miselim attempt.

Saying miselim in every post doesn’t make it true.

@bessie - Does this feel like you're actually addressing the content of the post to which you're responding? Because I know as the person who made the post, you might as well have just posted "I'm not responding to your case on me." If that's not your intention and you would like to communicate in good faith, then I hope you can see fit to rephrase and to respond in a manner more conducive to doing so.

I'm not really sure. A pretty decent chunk of content is fair, but a lot of his content has been bein cute (just osie things) and then being frustrated by bessie.

So do you agree with my observation that some of Osie’s early content could be considered active lurking?

@bessie - Again, why are you only engaging with someone else in the context of your read on me? Also, the way you address the worst seems like you are extremely confident that they are town. Is that correct? If not, why are you approaching them in this manner?

I'd love to have more to analyze. I do feel like this game has started a bit slow outside of bessie's attempt at a miselim.

Repeatedly saying miselim doesn’t make it true.

@bessie - I could appear similarly petulant with "Repeatedly dismissing the content of someone's posts doesn't contribute to forming a legitimate read on them." But that wouldn't be productive. The main thrust of that post is not the use of the word miselim. It is the point that the game seemed slow. Do you have anything to say about the game seeming slow?

Noting these two posts because I’m thinking about them and may want to come back to them.
viewtopic.php?p=16400#p16400
viewtopic.php?p=16401#p16401

@bessie - What's notable about those two posts? I like that you're actually looking at content from anyone other than myself, but if you're going to finally discuss your other reads, then who does it benefit for you to be vague?

LAMIST is a town tell you heard it here first

Interesting I usually have a negative view of LAMIST posts.

@bessie - Yeah, it's been noted. You've used it as a meme over and over again. What is the point of commenting on this? What did you get from this comment?

Your explanation was, similarly, maybe even more so, a point in your favour for me; I found it townie. But didn't significantly sway the needle for me on bessie. Maybe it's that I'm involved in the discussion, but even tunneled town is rarely close to that level of bad faith pushing.

Hmm, why do you think my push is purely bad faith, and not because I find you suspicious?

@bessie - I might say this is the best sentence you've posted all game by a comfortable margin. I am wondering why this wasn't asked pages ago, though? I've been commenting on how your push on me seems to be based on bad faith misrepresentations of my posts for a while now. What changed that allowed you to finally take that on face value and ask the question?

I think Boomfrog actually believes what they're saying here, unlike bessie.

Oh, I believe everything I’m saying. You could just ask if you need clarification.

@bessie - Why are you pretending that I hadn't made post upon post asking you why you were misrepresenting me and asking you to explain your reasoning? Does this longer quote wall post in your style satisfy your drive for questions to be asked of you in a direct fashion? Do I need to ask more questions? I feel like you've been gaslighting me all game and between that (intentional or not), other misrepresentations (intentional or not), your refusal to respond in good faith (intentional or not), the perpetual style of gish-gallops (long wall posts that you then follow up with (paraphrased) "this point wasn't addressed"), and your sarcastic aggression, there's so much there that it's hard to believe that you are anything other than scum acting this way intentionally, AND it just doesn't make for an enjoyable game. Do you feel that I should have to make a monstruous, excessive, gish-gallop of my own to get through to you that this isn't an enjoyable method of communication? Do you enjoy making other players' mafia experience unpleasant?

The other part is like. Expanding on nonreads is not the kind of content I came here to produce. I'm happy to explain why I don't have a read on someone yet but I'm p sure its always going to be a snooze factory.

Expanding on Truly Null reads on the other hand

Well I would like to see you post some analysis today, so how about expanding on a null read?

@bessie - Why is one of your only comments addressing someone other than me still about me?

So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?

Let's try this a different way. Since you keep on reframing my statements to mean something different, I'll just focus on your reframing here:

- Where did I point to "all of your content" or specify myself?

Refer to the underlined. Since you specify “constant” and since no one else has expresses irritation with me, well...

@bessie - "Constant" does not mean "all". The former is partial, the latter is not. AND you think that expression of irritation is a good thing? Why? You aren't trying to address it? Why? You're assuming that only the person who has addressed it most explicitly is irritated at you? Why? Are you some kind of sadist?

My point is that finding all but a few of my posts useless at best and most of them suspicious, but suggesting that you did objective analysis, rather than going through with subjective bias, is absurd.

It's an elaborate way to state "Bessie's argument is illogical and she appears to me to be unwilling to listen to reasoning that contradicts her worldview." I tend to work with metaphors.

I'd actually compare you to some obvious scum games I've seen in which players have tried what seems to be your approach of casing something that is different from what their miselim target is saying but a bit similar in wording. Except this is extreme. Like, it's really hard to interpret your posts as anything other than disingenuous bad faith.

Hmmm, I kinda seriously wonder about some of these attacks, I mean most people don’t normally compare people they are playing a friendly game with to Q-Anon and anti-vaxers. Like, what kind of reaction are you expecting?

@bessie - Whether or not you feel that some of my posts are personal attacks (which none of them are), what do you expect the rest of us to get out of you dismissing these specific posts which clearly are not attacks? A player is expressing that you don't appear to be communicating in good faith. You aren't following that up with an attempt to communicate in good faith, as far as I can tell. I have a lengthy series of posts detailing a scumcase on you. You are responding to that with self-victimization and with offhand dismissal rather than actually addressing the points I've made in these posts. Rather than actually trying to form communication with someone who at best (if you are town), you don't know the alignment of, and more likely, you know is town. Do you figure you can just outshout me into oblivion by repeating that there is no misrepresentation? Do you WANT a continuous thunderdome to take up all of Day 1? Why, if you're town, are you wasting our time?

How many games have you played with Madge?

Played? Not so much. Seen? At least a couple.

Where have you observed Madge play mafia before this forum?

@bessie - I expressed having an impression of Madge. That impression being based on 1 game, 2 games, or 6 games doesn't make the impression not true. What did you intend to get out of this question other than at most, making me look like I was reading Madge off of less than what I was? Keep in mind that I don't really use cold meta, as I call it. I don't pay that much attention to finished games, particularly if I wasn't involved in them in some capacity, at the very least as a spectator. "Meta" (cold meta) ala "In this other game..." is not what I'm using to form a read on Madge. Among other things, I'm using a judgment call on Madge's personality, skill/experience, and other factors based on all of the interactions which I have had with her, as I do with pretty much anyone when playing mafia. But regardless, this question seems like setup to nothing other than shade. Like, I don't believe for a second that you're sorting based on it. I don't think anyone reasonably could. It seems unrealistic that your purpose in asking me about that is anything other than an attempt to weaken the legitimacy of any read I form on Madge. That kind of agenda isn't townie. It doesn't help us solve the game. That kind of attitude might as well be scumclaiming.

Based on these signs I suggest you both drop the active lurking and role fishing parts of the case. They aren't interesting.

I believe I haven't said anything to Osie about it since Page 3. But I do want to know the Worst's answer to my question in this post.

@bessie - The last time you had brought it up was in your previous post, on page 6. You've brought up active lurking in the vast majority of your posts, as a cornerstone of your case. Why are you trying to frame this as if this wasn't a critical part of your case? What is your case if not active lurking and rolefishing? You've built the foundation of your push on those two points. You don't get to pivot without spending a comparable amount of time explaining your new case. Where is your new case? How do you intend to secure my miselimination as the lead (really only) person pushing me without a case on me?

I’m here, a little early today but still having issues with my computer locking up, so I’ll try to cover as much as I can.

@bessie - How is this helpful? This seems like setup for an excuse for potentially not playing. Why post this in the thread? Why are you, by your own definition, if we count your comments as one would count posts, active lurking?

Unanswered questions

@WakeMeUp, can you answer this question:

Ftr NUF is a site where cool people are playing mafia

Can you give me more information, like the full name of the site? I don’t know what the abbreviation NUF stands for.

@Worst, can you reply to this:

The other part is like. Expanding on nonreads is not the kind of content I came here to produce. I'm happy to explain why I don't have a read on someone yet but I'm p sure its always going to be a snooze factory.

Expanding on Truly Null reads on the other hand

Well I would like to see you post some analysis today, so how about expanding on a null read?

@bessie - Out of all questions, why these (especially the WMU question)? What do these questions accomplish? What does reposting your questions in a wall as if these "pings" will do anything accomplish? Is this just posturing? Did you have any reads on either of these players at this point?

New content

Bessie can you share reads for everyone else?

Yes. Reminder for everyone that doesn’t know me well, I have a very consistent style as either alignment so my style is NAI. I usually make one post a day (on weeknights; on weekends I have more time), where I review all the content since my previous post, and reply to any questions directed toward me, and to things I find interesting. I usually don’t do reads lists until after the game has been running for a few days and everyone has some content, so that I can consider the game content as a whole while I think about it. I’ll try to share some reads tonight in addition to my daily catch up post.

@bessie - Do you usually self-meta this way? Do you think self-meta is helpful or reliable? If someone is asking you for reads, what does it add to the thread to say "usually I wouldn't provide a list of reads" instead of just saying your final sentence there? Do you feel that not enough has happened this game to provide reads? If so, what would enough having happened look like?

I'm getting the sense most of the player base are in a differnet time zone to me. I'm happy to move the deadline if that would be wanted? I could shift it up to 6 hours later?

Wam, with the time zone spread in this game (Madge in Australia and WakeMeUp in Europe) you’re not going to get a deadline that is fair to everyone so you should probably just set it whenever you can be there and call time. I would rather have a hard deadline than a soft deadline.

@bessie - Why are you trying to stifle discussion of improving the deadline time?

And I agree with BoomFrog, what he said here is what we should be doing anyway:

Personally I think it's best for us to hit majority before deadline instead of waiting for a last minute scramble.

@bessie - What's your reasoning for agreement there? BoomFrog's statement could be taken at least a couple different ways. How are you interpreting it if you agree with it?

Hi Worst! Are you referring to my thoughts on Osie or on Madge?

hiya bessie
I was asking abt osie

Ok, let me go back to the original quote so I can let you know what my thoughts were when I made it:

Interesting that Osie asked about my comment on Madge’s confirmation post, but he was not the least bit curious as to why I FoS’d him in the same post , and gave no reasons. He has engaged with me, but not as to why I find him suspicious. Though he has prodded for information as to why I find Madge suspicious.

Could you expand a bit on why that struck you as alignment indicative

I don’t know that ignoring when someone FoSs you is totally alignment indicative, but I do feel it is suspicious. I am a proponent of that when you vote, you should give a reason, and I find it odd that someone would accept a out-of-nowhere FoS (not quite a vote) without wanting to know why. I felt at the time that Osie could be scum, and that he didn’t question me on my FoS because he didn’t necessarily want to discuss what I may have found scummy about him. So the suspicion I had for Osie at that time has since been magnified by his reaction.

@bessie - So are you saying me not immediately responding to your reasonless FoS is now the cornerstone of your case, despite it being reiterated multiple times to be an intentional playstyle choice? Are we supposed to believe that you intentionally posted a reasonless FoS, knowing that doing so is generally considered to be a scummy move, with the hope that someone would "take the bait"? I'm now spending hours of my time (hours that I don't really have) to respond to you in full based on what you seem to feel is the only proper playstyle. Is that what you wanted? To make this game a chore?

So do you agree with my observation that some of Osie’s early content could be considered active lurking?

Sure. I don't attribute malice to active lurking before the game has really gotten started.

I didn’t ask you your thoughts on active lurking, only if you agreed with me on what active lurking is, because it seems definitions are important when we have members of multiple communities that may have different conventions. But thank you for sharing your thoughts, I have noted them.

@bessie - Why are you taking offense at getting more of an answer than what you asked for? More information should be a good thing if you are town. Why are you trying to stifle discussion?

Tl;dr the worst didn't answer at my posts, and tried to turn against me my curiosity regarding the reason of his vote until he considered the first post was forgotten and I would give up.
I think he is scum.
What everyone thinks?

WakeMeUp, I feel that the first two quotes in your post were jokes by the Worst; the first because it is the kind of joke people usually make with an RVS vote, the second because it is just silly and not something any mafia player would say seriously. You understanding of English is great! But it could be that some of the subtle joking overtones are difficult to see to a non native speaker. Or to a native speaker that has no sense of humor, that is usually me.

I do agree with you that the Worst is deliberately looking for reasons not to answer. He is also looking for reasons not to give reads. Like, he won’t give a read of Osie because he claims he knows Osie too well to make a good read. But he also has not made reads of players he doesn’t know, so that is a fake excuse.

In my previous post I made note of two links because I am thinking about that interaction with Osie, and I think that it could be scum partners.

@bessie - Why are you interpreting a null read from the worst as a non-read? Why are you presuming that they're looking for reasons not to answer or not to give reads? Why are you assuming that there's deliberateness in regards to said presumed motivations?

Ooooooo did Osie make another post about me me me! How unexpected!

@bessie - What do you expect to gain out of that condescending sarcasm?

Several other players have pointed out that your miselim push has taken over the thread, usually something which players may find irritating since it replaces, y'know, actual analysis.

My actual analysis is just fine. You should read it.

Repeating “misrepresentation“ and “miselim” in your posts doesn’t make it true.

@bessie - Honestly, I've already addressed this plenty of times, but why are you dismissing my actual points there and not, y'know, actually communicating?

Most people don't misrepresent the words of others ad nauseum in a friendly game.

Your “reasoning” that because I dared to express suspicion of you early it is OK for you to compare me to Q-Anon and anti-vaxxers is noted.

@bessie - How do you justify that sort of comment as engaging in good faith? Like, especially after post upon post of twisting my words. I can't imagine someone having so little self-awareness that they don't take a step back and say "Wait a second" before deflecting like this after calling out the person whose point they're deflecting from in the way you have over the course of the thread. Like, what's going through your head this game? I don't get it. I don't get it whether you're scum or if you're actually town. I can't imagine working so hard to destroy one's own credibility this way as either alignment. Like, who does that? Do you find your own play this game enjoyable? How?! I'm baffled.

I have observed at least two games of Madge's on this forum since I hosted one and a friend was playing in another. I may have read one of Madge's games on Smashboards, but I might be confusing her with someone else on that front.

Madge has only played one game on this forum. You have no idea of her history and her mafia abilities, and it was very apparent to me when you made your post that the purpose was to buddy Madge when you referred to her as “a way better player than you as either alignment” (paraphrased).

@bessie - What's even the point here? Like how the hell are you taking your own statement seriously here? I guess no matter what my alignment, no matter what their alignment, I'm buddying anyone who I think is a better than player than me. Including WMU and the worst over several games with most combinations of alignment. What kind of ridiculous argument are you going for here? Like, is this a new cornerstone of your case? That I read people based on my personal impressions of their personalities? This is well-documented. It's well past when I would usually be asleep, but I don't think sleep deprivation is what's causing me to just be baffled by your approach here.

--I find Oracle Boomfrog's distillation of the bessie v osie thing here to be undeniable. At this point I'm going to skim anything I see between those two.

Whatever, but please read my comment immediately preceding this one regarding Osie’s buddying on Madge and think about if you agree.

@bessie - Again, why haven't you initiated engagement with moody on any grounds other than my alignment? Is it because you already know moody's alignment? Are you TMIing them as town? Same question for WakeMeUp. Same question for BoomFrog. Same question for the worst. Do you care about finding scum or eliminating one particular town player this Day phase?

Oh wow another Osie post about me me me???

@bessie - If I hadn't promised myself to respond to everything, I usually wouldn't dignify this sort of behaviour with a response. Just saying. What do you get out of this faux thought flow? What do you get out of this aggressive sarcasm? Why are you being callous about the enjoyment of players in this game?

Bessie has not accepted responsibility for her own misrepresentations any time this game—she clearly doesn't consider herself accountable for her own posts.

Repeating “misrepresentations” in your posts doesn’t make it true.

@bessie - I give up. "Repeating 'Repeating "misrepresentations" in your posts doesn't make it true' doesn't make it true." You happy? Is that what you want? This feels juvenile.

Oh another Osie post about me me me! I wish <3BoomFrog<3 was as obsessed with me as you are.

@bessie - Is this A POCKET ATTEMPT? [-1]

Damn... I was sorting by author and realized that Bessie has only 7 posts this game (after the host started the game), which go:

I have never understood why a player’s post count is more important to some than what is in the post. BoomFrog used the phrase “lots of low calorie posts” and I like it. I usually only make 1-2 posts a day, but all my posts are hot fudge sundaes on a brownie. Maybe you should start looking at calories, not quantity.

@bessie - Your posts are a combination of smaller posts. That's not high calories by function of quality. That's medium calories by function of quantity, shoved into a form that makes it harder for people to communicate with you. Just saying... I don't know what you expect from comparing our posts, but if you want me to make walls for you to read, here you go. Here it is. Now can we actually play the game, or are you going to continue to refuse to communicate in good faith?

Interesting how essentially the only instances other than the forgotten Madge scumread that Bessie has initiated interaction with a player other than me were a throwaway question to moody and then leaping onto the possibility that the worst might potentially scumread me. Kinda feels like she doesn't care about reading players other than me until after Day 1.

Hahaha my question to moody was not a throwaway question, it was completely serious, and I received a response, I have noted that response and how I interpret it.

@bessie - Care to share?

Oh, and repeating “malignment” and “misreps” in your posts doesn’t make it true.

More Later

@bessie - Is this any more productive than just saying "no u"? Somehow I doubt it. Or maybe this is what is supposed to be active lurking? Or is this supposed to be your "quality" posting?

Moody, I was referring to the comment immediately preceding in the same post:

I have observed at least two games of Madge's on this forum since I hosted one and a friend was playing in another. I may have read one of Madge's games on Smashboards, but I might be confusing her with someone else on that front.

Madge has only played one game on this forum. You have no idea of her history and her mafia abilities, and it was very apparent to me when you made your post that the purpose was to buddy Madge when you referred to her as “a way better player than you as either alignment” (paraphrased).

But I think your response tells me what I wanted to know, thanks.

@bessie - Care to share? Again, if you are town, then hiding your analysis and reads only hurts us.

Woof

bessie – Labrador retriever and hot fudge sundae aficionado.

BoomFrog – Is BoomFrog.

WakeMeUp1337 – I think she is trying to solve the game, and that she has made many valid points.

Madge – Isn’t BoomFrog, Is Madge.

The Snide Sniper – Placeholder, he told us pre-game that he didn’t intend to be very active Day 1, but I expect something from him on Day 2. If the Snide Sniper does not post more and better content on Day 2, I will probably start considering that he may be newbie indie (again) that is not sure what to do.

@bessie - Why are you talking about neutral hunting?

moody7277 – Placeholder, I have some pings related to Osie’s initial read list and with some other interactions (or lack thereof), and with Moody’s light-for-him content (but not light enough to be a concern, yet).

heuristically_alone - Boop line. Boop.

the worst – Possible scum partners with Osie. He won’t give a read of Osie, and something about their interactions that I noted pings me.

osieorb18 – I think BoomFrog was on point when he speculated that Osie could be “scum frustrated that they are being pressured for bullshit that (they believe) wasn’t actually scummy”. I think Osie’s overreaction to my early suspicions and his subsequent content re-enforces this.

Grr

@bessie - So now you're taking someone else's potential for reasoning since your own have all been debunked, and using it as the main point in your readslist? Why? Just to pocket BoomFrog? And then basing several of your other reads on your push on me? On Day 1? So not only do you have an incorrect push that is made in bad faith, but then you're extending that ridiculous push to pre-flip associate with others. And conveniently when I flip town, you can just forget any part of anything that you said on Day 1. I can barely imagine someone playing the way you have played this game as scum, let alone as town. It's so openly anti-town that it's hard to wrap my head around what your motivation for this could possibly be as either alignment.

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Anyways, I'm done, and I should have been asleep hours ago. I'm not doing this again this game. I refuse. Gish-gallops are just not an enjoyable way to play mafia. And I have very little interest in engaging with you any more until you've seriously changed your approach and addressed the vast number of questions posed to you over the course of the game.

[osieorb18]

@The worst: why are you being intentionally disengaged? Do you plan to engage more in later game days?

For what it's worth, in my experience, the worst is very reactive as a person and as a player and therefore I usually give him until Day 2 before I start worrying about him being disengaged. That said, I have also noted that he he feels relatively low-energy for him thus far. A handful of town pings, but also a lot of meh pings, whether that means scum or just disengaged town.

[the worst]

'answering questions helps town' is a concept i always put in practice in games. It's never narrow, and shows mindset. You either don't know that town's main power is teamwork, and then you can learn it, or you are scum. You pretend I can obtain a read from your avoidance and deflection. Yes, you are right, I have a scum read.
You didn't answer at my questions and definitely didn't ask me anything to make an alignament statement based on our interaction.

Town's greatest strength is teamwork. Absolutely agreed. But teamwork is also scum's greatest hiding spot - its very easy to let wolves slip by if you just endlessly go around asking and answering questions all day. I'd rather discern intent behind a question than answer a question any day.

I get that you want people to see a coherent thought process from you, but what I'm getting from you is that you've already decided on answers and you're just finding reasons to back them up. You're making a lot of noise about something that boils down to a pedantic playstyle difference, and during that you're giving no reads except a scumread against me for reasons which feel made up.

I think you think that you look good for this post but I don't see town intent. I see a lot of noise.

[the worst]

Here he pretend I am a good townie and yes, I am not so bad but in this playerslist I don't think I am that badass.

Who's significantly better than you in this playerlist?

So me questioning him does not feel like I have an organic reasoning. That's a new mode to avoid me.

Organic means, if I can trust the Google dictionary, "characterized by gradual or natural development". If that's wrong please someone tell me because i will take it as correct.

So my questions didn't have natural development? How come?
I would say, at contrary, that my questions have the clearest organic reasoning behind them and the worst only wants to bamboozle me.
I asked, i didn't receive answer, I asked again, i received deflections.

It's not me in the wrong here, he is, and that's wolfy in mafia.

This interaction, particularly this post and another recent one from worst, townpings for me on both of you.

The worst feels like he's interpreting your questioning as something you've forced. As a way to fill up space. The worst doesn't understand the reasoning behind the questions being asked.

You feel like you're interpreting the worst's response as something personal. You don't understand the reasoning behind the worst's response.

Usually in these contexts, it's best to take a step back and reevaluate on both sides, since otherwise, you argue past one another. I believe that both of you are capable of finding common ground and understanding each other.

Here is the point where he don't even know where all this started because his only purpose was to make me give up.

And he is changing the subject to the pocketing Osie thing.

I'm not entirely sure of the thrust of your questioning myself, to be honest, but I think that your attitude surrounding it feels genuine. Can you maybe reiterate in a short summary what questions you're currently looking to be answered?

Genuine attitude scarcely seems to matter when you're pushing a point as two dimensional as "duck is scum because duck disagrees with my policy about answering questions" :/

Generally these are smart things to ask though and if WMU wants to elaborate I'm fine responding.