Secret Santa Game Thread

[the worst]

The other part is like. Expanding on nonreads is not the kind of content I came here to produce. I'm happy to explain why I don't have a read on someone yet but I'm p sure its always going to be a snooze factory.

Expanding on Truly Null reads on the other hand

[osieorb18]

LAMIST is a town tell you heard it here first

I've heard from various people that use of mafia game terms/acronyms for the direct purpose of calling others out is considered a mild scumtell.

LAMIST
Rolefishing
T/T
TMI
Pocketing
FoS
Town Claim
"Would I Do This As Scum?" Post
Active Lurking
Buddying
Deflection

[osieorb18]

LAMIST is a town tell you heard it here first

That depends on who posts it.

yeah I just like speaking in DEFINITES to shock people

Only Sith deal in absolutes.

[bessie]

I’m here! Anything interesting happen while I was at work? Is anyone talking about me me me?

I would love to have a discussion on your point of view, but any such discussion requires us to come into the discussion in equally good faith with an equal understanding of the various posts in question, and given that you've been constantly and blatantly misrepresenting me, I don't see that happening. I want to believe that this is just you feeling like you've caught onto something, but it honestly just feels intentional as a way to irritate people.

So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?

No. Again, I didn't say that. Again, you're misrepresenting my words. In this case you're even explicitly stating that you don't know what I meant, and that you're applying a meaning of your own construction.

I said very specifically "A malignment wall [is a technique] where a player, typically scum, goes [Post-By-Post Analyzing (PBPA) through] another player's ISO [with a preformed bias], and then throws in positives here and there for appearances."

You went through every one of my posts and said "I find this negative" over and over again. That's not hard to do.

I didn’t know what you meant by the abbreviation “PBPA”. Now I know you meant “post by post analyzing” and its something I used to do a lot on xkcd, where we had longer games with much lower content levels.

And you’re correct; it wasn’t that hard to read through your posts and find many of them negative, because as I read your posts I felt that your content was suspicious. Your posts are the reason I have a scum read on you.

Ya know, after over a decade of forum moderation, I can pretty much tell that a person won't learn anything from me saying "What you're doing is wrong/unenjoyable/illogical" when they repeatedly double down. It's like talking to a typical anti-vaxxer or Q-Anon believer. They're convinced that they cannot ever be in the wrong as a person, even when acting obnoxious and illogical in the process of trying to make their argument.

Interesting. And quite rude. I guess I’m the Q-anon anti-vaxxer in your simile?

What serious vote? A vote with less than 50 posts in the game on someone who had made one post? My vote for you is my first serious vote this game.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, you are claiming your vote for moody in this post is not serious. Please correct me if I misunderstand because this affects my read of Moody so I want to be clear on it.

The worst, WakeMeUp, and Madge are way better players than me as either alignment.

How many games have you played with Madge?

Could you expand a bit on why that struck you as alignment indicative

Hi Worst! Are you referring to my thoughts on Osie or on Madge?

I think expressing a null/town read on someone and then voting them is the most sensible thing I've seen in a game of mafia.

bessie hmmm.PNG (77.82 KiB) Viewed 1819 times

More interesting? Maybe. Definitely less enjoyable. I suppose this is probably the second or third cringiest, most blatant series of misrepresentations formed into a push on me I've seen outside of games with the twins.

I’m not sure if you think you are insulting me by “putting me down” at the level of the twins, but as I like and admire the one of them that I have played with before, I will take this as a compliment.

Does Wisp know you talk about him like this?

"Osie's active lurking" - I'd had the most posts as someone being social in RVS but also trying to shift us relatively quickly out of RVS.

I didn’t say you were lurking. I said you were active lurking. There’s a difference between the two.

This is already a TERRIBLE progression to have on someone; the case is shifting when called out. She came into the game with the intention to miselim me, so by hook or by crook, she's gotta scumread me! And in typical gish-gallop style, bessie has already called me out for not addressing each individual point made in her posts.

That’s a pretty serious accusation there. You are saying that I came into the game with the intention to eliminate someone in particular. Can you clarify as to when you believe I made this decision in relation to the timeline of the game? Because you obviously don’t know me at all or you would know how serious I am about the integrity of the game. Oh, and bolding something doesn’t make it true.

[*] "IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM???" - What? I can't tell what this is referring to and even if I could, there's nothing in that quote that remotely resembles saying nakedly "I'm town".

Interesting, it’s right here:

Conf Town:
osieorb18 – Myself

Bessie's just scum here. And like, if she was Town, this push is SO wrong, SO laden with bad faith, SO obnoxiously misrepresenting, that it would probably be better for us if she was not playing the game.

Oh rude. And borderline something. You want me gone? Then vote me out, night kill me, or take it up with the mod. But don’t try to imply that I don’t belong here.

Hmm, after more thought I think like it. I should make this my sig.


More in a bit. I’m having trouble with my computer locking up and it’s taking a long tome to make replies.

[boomfrog]

I think your reasoning for that vote is kinda towny though I can feel the "GOTCHA" moment reverberating from you

My second impression is I don't like this. It feels like, "you got me but I need to play this off.".

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

Is there something particular about his [osie] content that strikes you as alignment indicative? / like I should have a read on him specifically?

He is one of the few players that is familiar to you and has posted the most content. If you are trying to sort people he seems like the best place to start for you. But it seems like from your above post that you didn't really analyse him until I asked you to. So it seems to me like you aren't actively trying to sort.

Is any of that chan of logic inaccurate?

Vote The Worst

I like this push too, though The Worst could still go either way for me. I think Boomfrog actually believes what they're saying here, unlike bessie. Boomfrog solid townread.

Tentative PoE: Bessie>>>Moody>>>heury>>>>>(madge/worst/WMU)

Gotta narrow that down to 3 ideally, 4 in an imperfect world.

How many scums aren in this game and why, if you have such a large Poe, you don't have suspicion on the players you didn't mention.
What means the bolded?

[osieorb18]

I would love to have a discussion on your point of view, but any such discussion requires us to come into the discussion in equally good faith with an equal understanding of the various posts in question, and given that you've been constantly and blatantly misrepresenting me, I don't see that happening. I want to believe that this is just you feeling like you've caught onto something, but it honestly just feels intentional as a way to irritate people.

So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?

Let's try this a different way. Since you keep on reframing my statements to mean something different, I'll just focus on your reframing here:

- Where did I point to "all of your content" or specify myself?

it wasn’t that hard to read through your posts and find many of them negative, because as I read your posts I felt that your content was suspicious.

My point is that finding all but a few of my posts useless at best and most of them suspicious, but suggesting that you did objective analysis, rather than going through with subjective bias, is absurd.

Ya know, after over a decade of forum moderation, I can pretty much tell that a person won't learn anything from me saying "What you're doing is wrong/unenjoyable/illogical" when they repeatedly double down. It's like talking to a typical anti-vaxxer or Q-Anon believer. They're convinced that they cannot ever be in the wrong as a person, even when acting obnoxious and illogical in the process of trying to make their argument.

Interesting. And quite rude. I guess I’m the Q-anon anti-vaxxer in your simile?

It's an elaborate way to state "Bessie's argument is illogical and she appears to me to be unwilling to listen to reasoning that contradicts her worldview." I tend to work with metaphors.

What serious vote? A vote with less than 50 posts in the game on someone who had made one post? My vote for you is my first serious vote this game.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, you are claiming your vote for moody in this post is not serious. Please correct me if I misunderstand because this affects my read of Moody so I want to be clear on it.

More serious than an entirely random vote in the first post of a game, but not serious enough that I would call it serious or that I wouldn't still call it an RVS vote.

The worst, WakeMeUp, and Madge are way better players than me as either alignment.

How many games have you played with Madge?

Played? Not so much. Seen? At least a couple.

More interesting? Maybe. Definitely less enjoyable. I suppose this is probably the second or third cringiest, most blatant series of misrepresentations formed into a push on me I've seen outside of games with the twins.

I’m not sure if you think you are insulting me by “putting me down” at the level of the twins, but as I like and admire the one of them that I have played with before, I will take this as a compliment.

Does Wisp know you talk about him like this?

Nah, the twins are fun. They just kinda defy expectations a lot of the time by being less predictable than average.

I'd actually compare you to some obvious scum games I've seen in which players have tried what seems to be your approach of casing something that is different from what their miselim target is saying but a bit similar in wording. Except this is extreme. Like, it's really hard to interpret your posts as anything other than disingenuous bad faith.

"Osie's active lurking" - I'd had the most posts as someone being social in RVS but also trying to shift us relatively quickly out of RVS.

I didn’t say you were lurking. I said you were active lurking. There’s a difference between the two.

- Where did I say that you said I was lurking?

I pointed out that an argument that I was active lurking falls flat for three reasons:

1. I was being social in RVS, as is normal for most.
2. I had more actual content than any other player by far, even if you split up people's posts.
3. I was pushing us towards shifting out of RVS.

None of these points are remotely related to lurking, rather than active lurking, in the context of the statement that I made.

This is already a TERRIBLE progression to have on someone; the case is shifting when called out. She came into the game with the intention to miselim me, so by hook or by crook, she's gotta scumread me! And in typical gish-gallop style, bessie has already called me out for not addressing each individual point made in her posts.

That’s a pretty serious accusation there. You are saying that I came into the game with the intention to eliminate someone in particular. Can you clarify as to when you believe I made this decision in relation to the timeline of the game? Because you obviously don’t know me at all or you would know how serious I am about the integrity of the game. Oh, and bolding something doesn’t make it true.

I am not talking about pre-game. I don't case people on material from prior to the host saying that the game has started. We already discussed that, in fact.

I'm saying that as someone who came into the thread AFTER I was one of the players who had generated content, I'm guessing that you picked me out of the players as a target for a miselim, and then formulated your case around the premise that you wanted me to be scum.

You are the only person who is bringing up game integrity.

[*] "IS THAT A TOWN CLAIM???" - What? I can't tell what this is referring to and even if I could, there's nothing in that quote that remotely resembles saying nakedly "I'm town".

Interesting, it’s right here:

Conf Town:
osieorb18 – Myself

Gotcha. So when I put myself at the top of a readlist, it's a notable "scumtell" to include when casing me? Do you think it's alignment indicative for someone to put themself at the top of their readlist? Should I have put myself at the bottom or middle? That seems counter-productive.

Bessie's just scum here. And like, if she was Town, this push is SO wrong, SO laden with bad faith, SO obnoxiously misrepresenting, that it would probably be better for us if she was not playing the game.

Oh rude. And borderline something. You want me gone? Then vote me out, night kill me, or take it up with the mod. But don’t try to imply that I don’t belong here.

There's nothing personal about my statement. You've made an attempt to miselim me, and it's been exposed as being illogical. If you're town, the correct move is to reevaluate, to discuss in good faith when people call out issues with your argument, and to progress your reads. Not to double down and desperately try to pull up anything you can find to further your initial push.

I'm very serious in saying that you may have made the most disingenuous-feeling push I've seen in any game. If you're not mafia, then I hope you can step back and reconsider the approach you've taken this game.

[osieorb18]

He is one of the few players that is familiar to you and has posted the most content. If you are trying to sort people he seems like the best place to start for you. But it seems like from your above post that you didn't really analyse him until I asked you to. So it seems to me like you aren't actively trying to sort.

Is any of that chan of logic inaccurate?

Vote The Worst

I like this push too, though The Worst could still go either way for me. I think Boomfrog actually believes what they're saying here, unlike bessie. Boomfrog solid townread.

Tentative PoE: Bessie>>>Moody>>>heury>>>>>(madge/worst/WMU)

Gotta narrow that down to 3 ideally, 4 in an imperfect world.

How many scums aren in this game and why, if you have such a large Poe, you don't have suspicion on the players you didn't mention.
What means the bolded?

I think there's 2 or 3 anti-town slots, more likely 2 than 3, but if there are 3, the third might be a neutral.

Those three players in parentheses are at about the same level for me; not a townread yet, but not a scumread yet either. I've had pings in both directions on all three slots. Heury is located where they are in the readlist since I always put zero-posters below my nullreads. That said, this feels too easy right now so my guess is that there is one scum in between you, madge, and the worst. I'd probably put it like this:

(1-3 Scum): Bessie/Moody/Heury
(0-1 Scum): Madge/Worst/WMU
(0 Scum unless I'm very wrong): Boomfrog/TSS

Though any of Heury/Madge/Worst/WMU could easily overtake TSS, whereas it would take a lot of work for Bessie/Moody to do so.

[osieorb18]

You want me gone? Then vote me out, night kill me, or take it up with the mod. But don’t try to imply that I don’t belong here.

Beyond my statement not being personal at all, this also seems like an obvious bit of logic:

1. I think your slot is scum.
2. I'm not certain that other players think your slot is scum and are willing to vote you out.
3. I'm expressing that I think your play is scummy and your slot should be voted out.
4. If people agree with me, they will vote you out.

There's no implication that you don't belong, either on a personal or player level. The only implication of my statement is the explicit one: You are extremely scummy and therefore should be eliminated.

[boomfrog]

I've examined Osie's bloody entrails and read the signs. I hearby declare these undeniable truths:

1) Bessie and Osie are not scummates.
2) Osie was sincerely not role fishing.
3) Osie was not active lurking, this is a culture difference about how to start the game.
4) Bessie sincerely believes Osie's behavior fits role fishing and active lurking, there was not intentional misrepresentation.
5) Osie is either town or "scum frustrated they are being pressured for bullshit that wasn't actually scummy". Unfortunately the signs are uncertain in this matter.

Based on these signs I suggest you both drop the active lurking and role fishing parts of the case. They aren't interesting.

[boomfrog]

Btw, @osie, I meant "worst" as in most dangerous scum. But I've only got one town game to base this on, so I may be wrong about your scum competency. But you impressed me with your analysis in that one town game. Though not with your persuasiveness, which is admittedly more important for scum.

[bessie]

holy crap why did i agree to this game.

Because we wouldn’t let you mod two Secret Santa games in a row.

Ftr NUF is a site where cool people are playing mafia

Can you give me more information, like the full name of the site? I don’t know what the abbreviation NUF stands for.

If you consider "FoS osieorb18" to be tunneling... Given that I was the first person to question bessie at all. If anything, I had the gall to question what she was doing and she took that as an excuse to expand one of her scummy feelers into a miselim attempt.

Saying miselim in every post doesn’t make it true.

I'm not really sure. A pretty decent chunk of content is fair, but a lot of his content has been bein cute (just osie things) and then being frustrated by bessie.

So do you agree with my observation that some of Osie’s early content could be considered active lurking?

I'd love to have more to analyze. I do feel like this game has started a bit slow outside of bessie's attempt at a miselim.

Repeatedly saying miselim doesn’t make it true.


Noting these two posts because I’m thinking about them and may want to come back to them.
viewtopic.php?p=16400#p16400
viewtopic.php?p=16401#p16401

LAMIST is a town tell you heard it here first

Interesting I usually have a negative view of LAMIST posts.

Your explanation was, similarly, maybe even more so, a point in your favour for me; I found it townie. But didn't significantly sway the needle for me on bessie. Maybe it's that I'm involved in the discussion, but even tunneled town is rarely close to that level of bad faith pushing.

Hmm, why do you think my push is purely bad faith, and not because I find you suspicious?

I think Boomfrog actually believes what they're saying here, unlike bessie.

Oh, I believe everything I’m saying. You could just ask if you need clarification.

The other part is like. Expanding on nonreads is not the kind of content I came here to produce. I'm happy to explain why I don't have a read on someone yet but I'm p sure its always going to be a snooze factory.

Expanding on Truly Null reads on the other hand

Well I would like to see you post some analysis today, so how about expanding on a null read?

I would love to have a discussion on your point of view, but any such discussion requires us to come into the discussion in equally good faith with an equal understanding of the various posts in question, and given that you've been constantly and blatantly misrepresenting me, I don't see that happening. I want to believe that this is just you feeling like you've caught onto something, but it honestly just feels intentional as a way to irritate people.

So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?

Let's try this a different way. Since you keep on reframing my statements to mean something different, I'll just focus on your reframing here:

- Where did I point to "all of your content" or specify myself?

Refer to the underlined. Since you specify “constant” and since no one else has expresses irritation with me, well...

My point is that finding all but a few of my posts useless at best and most of them suspicious, but suggesting that you did objective analysis, rather than going through with subjective bias, is absurd.

It's an elaborate way to state "Bessie's argument is illogical and she appears to me to be unwilling to listen to reasoning that contradicts her worldview." I tend to work with metaphors.

I'd actually compare you to some obvious scum games I've seen in which players have tried what seems to be your approach of casing something that is different from what their miselim target is saying but a bit similar in wording. Except this is extreme. Like, it's really hard to interpret your posts as anything other than disingenuous bad faith.

Hmmm, I kinda seriously wonder about some of these attacks, I mean most people don’t normally compare people they are playing a friendly game with to Q-Anon and anti-vaxers. Like, what kind of reaction are you expecting?

The worst, WakeMeUp, and Madge are way better players than me as either alignment.

How many games have you played with Madge?

Played? Not so much. Seen? At least a couple.

Where have you observed Madge play mafia before this forum?

Based on these signs I suggest you both drop the active lurking and role fishing parts of the case. They aren't interesting.

I believe I haven't said anything to Osie about it since Page 3. But I do want to know the Worst's answer to my question in this post.

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

I feel like you're asking a lot of questions just for the sake of it. And I think you're a good wagon because I think pressure makes you more likely to get excited about a game which should make it easier for me to work out your alignment

And you avoid to answer at them because?
I don't really care about pressure, I play at my own pace.
Besides a vote from a scum read doesn’t mean pressure, means a bad push.
Until I figure if I am right or wrong I would appreciate more from you than some generalities.

I understand you don't risk a read for Osie because he can go either way. This is for me a non commital way of pocketing him.

Answering your question outright won't help me. What do you want me to be more specific about?

You suggesting that I'm trying to pocket Osie kind of lacks nuance? - like by the same argument you could say that every single read ever made on d1 is some kind of pocketing attempt is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?

Answering and being cooperative helps town
If answering don't help you that's concerning for me and is strengthening my impression you are scum

Pocketing has so many levels and feels manipulative (manipulation is a form of deceiving people and I have a 6th sense for it).
Every time a read on someone is wishy washy, for me rings a bell because that kind of read doesn't bother that player and his reaction is mild and they just don't care much about it.
Look at how Osie reacted at Bessie's accusations and at your read.
If you are scum like I suspect you don't need an enemy who can post walls so your read for Osie is a non read.

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

Bessie can you share reads for everyone else?

[boomfrog]

If only there were more then five players in this game....

Can we get some mod prods on TSS, huay, and maybe Moody and madge?

[Wam]

I'm getting the sense most of the player base are in a differnet time zone to me. I'm happy to move the deadline if that would be wanted? I could shift it up to 6 hours later?

[the worst]

Hi Worst! Are you referring to my thoughts on Osie or on Madge?

hiya bessie
I was asking abt osie

[the worst]

I've examined Osie's bloody entrails and read the signs. I hearby declare these undeniable truths:

1) Bessie and Osie are not scummates.
2) Osie was sincerely not role fishing.
3) Osie was not active lurking, this is a culture difference about how to start the game.
4) Bessie sincerely believes Osie's behavior fits role fishing and active lurking, there was not intentional misrepresentation.
5) Osie is either town or "scum frustrated they are being pressured for bullshit that wasn't actually scummy". Unfortunately the signs are uncertain in this matter.

Based on these signs I suggest you both drop the active lurking and role fishing parts of the case. They aren't interesting.

ya amen

[the worst]

So do you agree with my observation that some of Osie’s early content could be considered active lurking?

Sure. I don't attribute malice to active lurking before the game has really gotten started.

[the worst]

And you avoid to answer at them because?
I don't really care about pressure, I play at my own pace.
Besides a vote from a scum read doesn’t mean pressure, means a bad push.
Until I figure if I am right or wrong I would appreciate more from you than some generalities.

I understand you don't risk a read for Osie because he can go either way. This is for me a non commital way of pocketing him.

Answering your question outright won't help me. What do you want me to be more specific about?

You suggesting that I'm trying to pocket Osie kind of lacks nuance? - like by the same argument you could say that every single read ever made on d1 is some kind of pocketing attempt is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?

Answering and being cooperative helps town
If answering don't help you that's concerning for me and is strengthening my impression you are scum

Pocketing has so many levels and feels manipulative (manipulation is a form of deceiving people and I have a 6th sense for it).
Every time a read on someone is wishy washy, for me rings a bell because that kind of read doesn't bother that player and his reaction is mild and they just don't care much about it.
Look at how Osie reacted at Bessie's accusations and at your read.
If you are scum like I suspect you don't need an enemy who can post walls so your read for Osie is a non read.

"Answering questions helps the town" is such a narrow statement. Understanding people's intentions and reading their alignments helps the town - I think you should already be able to work out the stuff you've been asking me and can't really discern why it's being asked so I don't think you approached me from a place of solving. So no, I don't think answering your questions was more helpful than trying to get more out of you.

Again your argument that pocketing is something manipulative means that like.... all you need is a degree of spin to view every interaction as pocketing. I think I'm fairly difficult to read accurately on day one so I'm p amenable to people seeing malice in benign stuff I do, but I am just not seeing what you're seeing.

p wary that you trying to convince me of Osie comes from a guilty mindset more often than a sincere one

[the worst]

vanity guess bessie/wmu

[boomfrog]

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20220204T14&p0=4757&msg=End+of+Day+1&font=cursive

This link doesn't work for me.

Deadline is I think at 4am for me currently, so 5-6 good later would be nice, but whatever is fine.

Personally I think it's best for us to hit majority before deadline instead of waiting for a last minute scramble.

[boomfrog]

Ahh. Link text and url were switched. This works.

https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/g ... nt=cursive

[xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx]

Long wall, trying to shorten it by some spoilers

My interaction with the worst

Osie softclaiming with all the softness of a bag of razors is the content I came here to see. <3

vote: madge
Wmu is also a great wagon choice.

This post made me curious about the reason of the vote

Everything I have ever said is a pocketing attempt. I also endorse wagons which are not on me.

Here is a post who says everyone is a good vote except himself, making me think surviving is duck's main intention

Everything I have ever said is a pocketing attempt. I also endorse wagons which are not on me.

What you do to figure alignment? I am curious

And I ask how he makes reads. Maybe my english is that bad that my intention is hidden?
Why do I ask? Scum usually don't reveal their thought process because that is making townies to pull out what looks fabricated.
So my question is a test, and duck didn't quack villagery

my imminent demise
on page 2
the shame is limitless

You forgot to answer me

I insist

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

my imminent demise
on page 2
the shame is limitless

You forgot to answer me

I assumed your question was rhetorical :p
yes there's a reason
would this answer ever be anything else

He avoids

I don't know this plist particularly well. I know the folks I played with last time, and I'd be fairly scared of you being scum again. :p

From the outside world I know osie and I know wmu. I don't think ive actually seen WMU's scumgame but she can be a badass as town so it'd be interesting I guess. Osie is also good scum and it's been a hot minute but I feel like I have a p decent shot at reading him.

Here he pretend I am a good townie and yes, I am not so bad but in this playerslist I don't think I am that badass.
I don't see any curiosity coming from the worst about me, btw, nothing to imply he tries to make a read

You forgot to answer me

I assumed your question was rhetorical :p
yes there's a reason
would this answer ever be anything else

Please explain your reason and the meaning of your last sentence like I am 5

I insist again
And I ask about that sentence because it doesn't have any meaning for me. Putting it in translate (which i rarely do because I understand well 99% of posts) i have the confirmation that the sentence is unfinished.

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

I assumed your question was rhetorical :p
yes there's a reason
would this answer ever be anything else

Please explain your reason and the meaning of your last sentence like I am 5

I'd always say "yes there's a reason", right? I'm not the type of player who does things randomly without at least coming up with an excuse for it. How does asking me if I have a reason help sort me?

Self meta? I don't need that, and i see the worst is still avoiding my questions

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Please explain your reason and the meaning of your last sentence like I am 5

I'd always say "yes there's a reason", right? I'm not the type of player who does things randomly without at least coming up with an excuse for it. How does asking me if I have a reason help sort me?

The reason itself helps. Maybe I didn't ask for it literally but it's implied, and you ignored it and I want to know why.

Again, I insist

How do you feel about WMU this game?

She hasn't (sorry) woken her up yet. I'm not seeing a lot of like, organic reasoning behind what she's asking ? I could be persuaded to vote there.

What?

So me questioning him does not feel like I have an organic reasoning. That's a new mode to avoid me.

Organic means, if I can trust the Google dictionary, "characterized by gradual or natural development". If that's wrong please someone tell me because i will take it as correct.

So my questions didn't have natural development? How come?
I would say, at contrary, that my questions have the clearest organic reasoning behind them and the worst only wants to bamboozle me.
I asked, i didn't receive answer, I asked again, i received deflections.

It's not me in the wrong here, he is, and that's wolfy in mafia.

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She hasn't (sorry) woken her up yet. I'm not seeing a lot of like, organic reasoning behind what she's asking ? I could be persuaded to vote there.

What?

I feel like you're asking a lot of questions just for the sake of it. And I think you're a good wagon because I think pressure makes you more likely to get excited about a game which should make it easier for me to work out your alignment

This is performative, is a post made to deflect again my question.
I think the emote at the end of the post is an attempt to show himself relaxed, but the post doesn't transmit this feeling.
Because what the worst is telling me in his posts is not pressure adressed at me but ways to avoid to answer at my pressure.

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What?

I feel like you're asking a lot of questions just for the sake of it. And I think you're a good wagon because I think pressure makes you more likely to get excited about a game which should make it easier for me to work out your alignment

And you avoid to answer at them because?
I don't really care about pressure, I play at my own pace.
Besides a vote from a scum read doesn’t mean pressure, means a bad push.
Until I figure if I am right or wrong I would appreciate more from you than some generalities.

I understand you don't risk a read for Osie because he can go either way. This is for me a non commital way of pocketing him.

Asking more from him is a normal course for me, as long as I notice he refused to share a read for Osie

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I feel like you're asking a lot of questions just for the sake of it. And I think you're a good wagon because I think pressure makes you more likely to get excited about a game which should make it easier for me to work out your alignment

And you avoid to answer at them because?
I don't really care about pressure, I play at my own pace.
Besides a vote from a scum read doesn’t mean pressure, means a bad push.
Until I figure if I am right or wrong I would appreciate more from you than some generalities.

I understand you don't risk a read for Osie because he can go either way. This is for me a non commital way of pocketing him.

Answering your question outright won't help me. What do you want me to be more specific about?

You suggesting that I'm trying to pocket Osie kind of lacks nuance? - like by the same argument you could say that every single read ever made on d1 is some kind of pocketing attempt is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?

Here is the point where he don't even know where all this started because his only purpose was to make me give up.

And he is changing the subject to the pocketing Osie thing.

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And you avoid to answer at them because?
I don't really care about pressure, I play at my own pace.
Besides a vote from a scum read doesn’t mean pressure, means a bad push.
Until I figure if I am right or wrong I would appreciate more from you than some generalities.

I understand you don't risk a read for Osie because he can go either way. This is for me a non commital way of pocketing him.

Answering your question outright won't help me. What do you want me to be more specific about?

You suggesting that I'm trying to pocket Osie kind of lacks nuance? - like by the same argument you could say that every single read ever made on d1 is some kind of pocketing attempt is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?

Answering and being cooperative helps town
If answering don't help you that's concerning for me and is strengthening my impression you are scum

Pocketing has so many levels and feels manipulative (manipulation is a form of deceiving people and I have a 6th sense for it).
Every time a read on someone is wishy washy, for me rings a bell because that kind of read doesn't bother that player and his reaction is mild and they just don't care much about it.
Look at how Osie reacted at Bessie's accusations and at your read.
If you are scum like I suspect you don't need an enemy who can post walls so your read for Osie is a non read.

I explain my thoughts

Spoiler (Show/Hide)

Answering your question outright won't help me. What do you want me to be more specific about?

You suggesting that I'm trying to pocket Osie kind of lacks nuance? - like by the same argument you could say that every single read ever made on d1 is some kind of pocketing attempt is there something that actually struck you as me trying to pocket osie?

Answering and being cooperative helps town
If answering don't help you that's concerning for me and is strengthening my impression you are scum

Pocketing has so many levels and feels manipulative (manipulation is a form of deceiving people and I have a 6th sense for it).
Every time a read on someone is wishy washy, for me rings a bell because that kind of read doesn't bother that player and his reaction is mild and they just don't care much about it.
Look at how Osie reacted at Bessie's accusations and at your read.
If you are scum like I suspect you don't need an enemy who can post walls so your read for Osie is a non read.

"Answering questions helps the town" is such a narrow statement. Understanding people's intentions and reading their alignments helps the town - I think you should already be able to work out the stuff you've been asking me and can't really discern why it's being asked so I don't think you approached me from a place of solving. So no, I don't think answering your questions was more helpful than trying to get more out of you.

Again your argument that pocketing is something manipulative means that like.... all you need is a degree of spin to view every interaction as pocketing. I think I'm fairly difficult to read accurately on day one so I'm p amenable to people seeing malice in benign stuff I do, but I am just not seeing what you're seeing.

p wary that you trying to convince me of Osie comes from a guilty mindset more often than a sincere one

And I receive a longer post. Thanks

Let's see:
'answering questions helps town' is a concept i always put in practice in games. It's never narrow, and shows mindset. You either don't know that town's main power is teamwork, and then you can learn it, or you are scum. You pretend I can obtain a read from your avoidance and deflection. Yes, you are right, I have a scum read.
You didn't answer at my questions and definitely didn't ask me anything to make an alignament statement based on our interaction.

The pocketing thing is my perception. You didn't even try to understand my reasoning there, but you draw the conclusion of me spinning the things. That's not it.

You accuse me of malice and that is so transparent and weak that doesn't look real. Also is not logical, if you are scum I don't try to convince you about anything, you would only say no u, isn't it?

Tl;dr the worst didn't answer at my posts, and tried to turn against me my curiosity regarding the reason of his vote until he considered the first post was forgotten and I would give up.
I think he is scum.
What everyone thinks?

[osieorb18]

Your explanation was, similarly, maybe even more so, a point in your favour for me; I found it townie. But didn't significantly sway the needle for me on bessie. Maybe it's that I'm involved in the discussion, but even tunneled town is rarely close to that level of bad faith pushing.

Hmm, why do you think my push is purely bad faith, and not because I find you suspicious?

Because every time you have been corrected on misrepresentations you have ignored it or misrepresented once more.

So, you feel all my content is all about intentionally irritating you? Really?

Let's try this a different way. Since you keep on reframing my statements to mean something different, I'll just focus on your reframing here:

- Where did I point to "all of your content" or specify myself?

Refer to the underlined. Since you specify “constant” and since no one else has expresses irritation with me, well...

Constant does not mean "all of your content". It means, in context, as is its most reasonable interpretation if one is not trying to read something into it, "a vast majority of the time."

Several other players have pointed out that your miselim push has taken over the thread, usually something which players may find irritating since it replaces, y'know, actual analysis.

Hmmm, I kinda seriously wonder about some of these attacks, I mean most people don’t normally compare people they are playing a friendly game with to Q-Anon and anti-vaxers. Like, what kind of reaction are you expecting?

Most people don't misrepresent the words of others ad nauseum in a friendly game.

How many games have you played with Madge?

Played? Not so much. Seen? At least a couple.

Where have you observed Madge play mafia before this forum?

I have observed at least two games of Madge's on this forum since I hosted one and a friend was playing in another. I may have read one of Madge's games on Smashboards, but I might be confusing her with someone else on that front.

Every time a read on someone is wishy washy, for me rings a bell because that kind of read doesn't bother that player and his reaction is mild and they just don't care much about it.

To be fair, I tend to consciously not react to reads on me unless the reasoning behind them seems drastically poor.