Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Sorry for hard clearing Madge. I thought for a threat to be eliminated you had to have a player around definitionally so I hard cleared Madge.
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
At least killing me resulted in scum losing like I thought
-
SuperJedi224
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:34 pm
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Thanks for hosting osie
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Roles:
Host Notes: "Demeter" and the role that started it all. I like how this role played out even if it did sorta self-confirm. I think the day extension and shortening was a little meh though. Choice was "Summer, Winter, Spring, Fall".
%%%
Host Notes: "Aphrodite". This role was pivotal and could have been even more extreme since they could have made a second pairing. It also fulfilled my desire to see a Super Commandant (Doctor + Alignment Cop) in action in a game.
%%%
Host Notes: "Zeus". I think that this was really cool, but I understand the frustrations with vote manipulation of this sort. It was a moot point, but I was happy to realize (and pass on to the worst) that this role technically did not restrict someone's vote as it just suggests a vote choice to follow.
%%%
Host Notes: "Apollo". This role was a mistake. A pretty big one. I realized in the middle of the game that I'd unintentionally made a relatively unlimited lie detector. You can see in the informed spec where I just started thinking about how to justify less-than-reliable results without venturing into bastard territory. MathBlade was the first of those. I was very amused by the worst messaging me "i am so, so sorry for randing this role." after a series of 5 pre-submitted questions.
%%%
Host Notes: "Athena". Well, this was a bit of a flop. My attempt to make something sorta resembling a bus driver but less painful. It ended up just being an underwhelming mess. Kinda like a bus driver. But not less painful.
%%%
Host Notes: "Dionysus". I think this role is awesome. All I got here.
%%%
Host Notes: "Hestia". This was yet another twist from me on the idea of a commuterizer. I think it's a reasonable option, though I think I would make the follow up a little less brutal in future games.
%%%
Host Notes: "Poseidon". This is based on a role I got once from Prophylaxis. I like this format and want to experiment with it a bit more with a bit more downside in there. I think the role played out decently, though it could have had more impact in its first usage.
%%%
Host Notes: "Artemis". I partly changed the flavour of the game because I knew that Zeniba might try to setupgame it. This concept of changing targeting to be controlled by your votes proved less than popular. I might revisit it in a less painful form at some point, but probably not like this. The role was a pain to keep track of as well.
%%%
Host Notes: "Hephaestus". This used to be a neutral Hitman. I'm not convinced that it shouldn't have remained as such, but one way or another I like how the role worked out.
%%%
Host Notes: "Ares". This role is why I feel that Mafia actually wouldn't have been entirely screwed over if not for the modkill. That said, the disadvantage is probably a little harsh. If only Sabrar hadn't been speed-eliminated...
%%%
Host Notes: "Hera". A scum role with this much town equity?! *Gasps* Lol. I like this role a lot. A little too strong to be unlimited shots on town, but it's okay. I was pushing power levels across the board in this setup. I think Madge chose targets pretty well too.
%%%
Host Notes: "Hades". I like backups and I like roles that target people outside of living players! This role was super cool, though I think the guessing game is a little too punishing. If not for the modkill, this role might have cemented a Mafia win.
Post-Game Comments
I appreciate that players kept the game polite/civil (outside of 1-2 small instances).
Not my best design. The town just had way too much information available to them. I think the mafia had a surprisingly good chance if the modkill hadn't occurred but I was in a pretty much impossible position.
Madge did a phenomenal job despite all the odds being stacked against her. Huge props there. I'd be extremely happy to have her on any scumteam ever.
I think Town MVP would be between Wam, Seven, and moody?
Many thanks to everyone for playing.
Many thanks to grapefruit for reviewing.
Many thanks to somitomi for being a very solid cohost (and taking over smoothly in Day 3 when I just couldn't be around).
I hope everyone has a happy holidays and I look forward to seeing you all around!
Superjedi224
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Heavy Horses.
At the beginning of the game while confirming this PM, you assign the four abilities below to the seasons. You gain your horse as an Imaginary Friend (Neighbour with an uninformed non-player) in Spring/Summer. Seasons change whenever two players have died, and start with Winter. Abilities apply as of the start of a Day phase. List of abilities:
Confirm reading and understanding this message by assigning abilities to the seasons, by choosing a non-player to be your imaginary friend (let me know some people who you'd choose in order and I'll reach out to them as able) and by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Heavy Horses.
At the beginning of the game while confirming this PM, you assign the four abilities below to the seasons. You gain your horse as an Imaginary Friend (Neighbour with an uninformed non-player) in Spring/Summer. Seasons change whenever two players have died, and start with Winter. Abilities apply as of the start of a Day phase. List of abilities:
- All players Hated during the Day. This has no effect in XyLO.
- All players are Loved during the Day. This has no effect in XyLO.
- The Day lasts for 24 hours extra.
- The Day lasts for 24 hours fewer.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by assigning abilities to the seasons, by choosing a non-player to be your imaginary friend (let me know some people who you'd choose in order and I'll reach out to them as able) and by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
moody7277
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN When I'm 64.
Each Night, you may target two players. Those players get a Neighborhood from the beginning of the following Day to the end of the following Night. During that Night, they may privately vote to keep the Neighborhood. If both vote to keep it, they gain a strong communal ability and become lovers. If only one votes to not keep it, that player gains an extra vote during the next Day phase and the other player has a 25% chance to die. If neither vote to keep it, both players gain extra votes during the next Day phase and have a 1/3rd chance to die. Your targets will learn that they will gain a large advantage if both vote to keep it, a moderate advantage if only their opponent votes to keep it, and a moderate advantage and moderate risk if both vote to not keep it. Once either a player has died to this ability or players have become lovers, you lose this ability.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN When I'm 64.
Each Night, you may target two players. Those players get a Neighborhood from the beginning of the following Day to the end of the following Night. During that Night, they may privately vote to keep the Neighborhood. If both vote to keep it, they gain a strong communal ability and become lovers. If only one votes to not keep it, that player gains an extra vote during the next Day phase and the other player has a 25% chance to die. If neither vote to keep it, both players gain extra votes during the next Day phase and have a 1/3rd chance to die. Your targets will learn that they will gain a large advantage if both vote to keep it, a moderate advantage if only their opponent votes to keep it, and a moderate advantage and moderate risk if both vote to not keep it. Once either a player has died to this ability or players have become lovers, you lose this ability.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
MathBlade
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Flash.
Each Night, you may target another player. Prevent all actions that player would take during that Night. Any time you vote during the following Day phase, if that player posts after that vote, hammer has not been reached, and at least 30 minutes remain in the day phase, that player must follow that vote before the end of the Day phase or they are roleblocked again during the following Night phase.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Flash.
Each Night, you may target another player. Prevent all actions that player would take during that Night. Any time you vote during the following Day phase, if that player posts after that vote, hammer has not been reached, and at least 30 minutes remain in the day phase, that player must follow that vote before the end of the Day phase or they are roleblocked again during the following Night phase.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
the worst
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN The Riddle.
Each Night, you may ask a yes/no question about the setup and predict the answer. Any time your prediction is correct, you may ask an additional question.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN The Riddle.
Each Night, you may ask a yes/no question about the setup and predict the answer. Any time your prediction is correct, you may ask an additional question.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
bessie
"Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Anitra's Dance.
Each Night, you may target two other players. You learn how many other actions are targeting or targeted by one or both of them. You may guess which players (out of all players) are involved with those actions (as an overall list, not per action). Each action with at least one correct guess of involvement can be redirected if you choose. If you do, it will target the opposite one of the players you targeted. If it targets multiple players, it will replace in order from person who took the action and yourself after it has replaced up to one of your targets if able.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Anitra's Dance.
Each Night, you may target two other players. You learn how many other actions are targeting or targeted by one or both of them. You may guess which players (out of all players) are involved with those actions (as an overall list, not per action). Each action with at least one correct guess of involvement can be redirected if you choose. If you do, it will target the opposite one of the players you targeted. If it targets multiple players, it will replace in order from person who took the action and yourself after it has replaced up to one of your targets if able.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
xX_WakeMeUp1337_Xx
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Hotto Dogu.
Each Night, you may target another player to protect that player from kills as long as they are taking an action. If they are protected this way, their target(s) are randomized between their choice of target, themself, and each player targeting them that Night. If they are taking an action but no kill is prevented this way, that action is prevented.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Hotto Dogu.
Each Night, you may target another player to protect that player from kills as long as they are taking an action. If they are protected this way, their target(s) are randomized between their choice of target, themself, and each player targeting them that Night. If they are taking an action but no kill is prevented this way, that action is prevented.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Wisp
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Home.
Each Night, you may target another player to make that player unable to target or be targeted by killing actions during that Night. If you prevent a kill this way, players cannot vote for you during the following Day phase.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Home.
Each Night, you may target another player to make that player unable to target or be targeted by killing actions during that Night. If you prevent a kill this way, players cannot vote for you during the following Day phase.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Wam
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Misirlou.
Each Night, you may target another player and pick two modes. Each mode can only be picked once and you cannot target the same player more than once. Modes:
- That player's non-factional actions are prevented if they target a player with the same alignment as themself during that Night.
- That player learns any feedback from actions that target them during that Night.
- That player may send up to three 120-character-or-fewer messages to uninformed spec chat during the following Day. The chat may respond in kind each time.
- That player is recommended to target a player of your choice during that Night. They will receive extra time to make this choice.
You learn any feedback your target learns due to your actions.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Misirlou.
Each Night, you may target another player and pick two modes. Each mode can only be picked once and you cannot target the same player more than once. Modes:
- That player's non-factional actions are prevented if they target a player with the same alignment as themself during that Night.
- That player learns any feedback from actions that target them during that Night.
- That player may send up to three 120-character-or-fewer messages to uninformed spec chat during the following Day. The chat may respond in kind each time.
- That player is recommended to target a player of your choice during that Night. They will receive extra time to make this choice.
You learn any feedback your target learns due to your actions.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Seven
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Eclipse.
Each Night, if you were voting for the same player with your first and last votes during the previous Day phase, you learn if during that Night, that player targets you or anyone else you voted during that Day phase. If you were voting different players with your first and last vote, you learn if either targets the other.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Eclipse.
Each Night, if you were voting for the same player with your first and last votes during the previous Day phase, you learn if during that Night, that player targets you or anyone else you voted during that Day phase. If you were voting different players with your first and last vote, you learn if either targets the other.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Morgan
Welcome to the game!
You are TOWN Pinball Wizard.
Each Night, you may target another player to give that player a 1-shot Fiery Box item. They must use an action of that Box by the end of the following Night. That box has 3 different actions: Break, Open, and Throw (at a target). If broken, they get a 1-shot Commuter but have a 30% chance of being killed. If opened, they get a 1-shot Day Vigilante but have a 10% chance of being killed. If thrown, they prevent all actions that target would take that Night but they and that target each have a 15% chance of being killed.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are TOWN Pinball Wizard.
Each Night, you may target another player to give that player a 1-shot Fiery Box item. They must use an action of that Box by the end of the following Night. That box has 3 different actions: Break, Open, and Throw (at a target). If broken, they get a 1-shot Commuter but have a 30% chance of being killed. If opened, they get a 1-shot Day Vigilante but have a 10% chance of being killed. If thrown, they prevent all actions that target would take that Night but they and that target each have a 15% chance of being killed.
You win when no threats to town remain, as long as at least one townsperson is alive.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Sabrar
Welcome to the game!
You are MAFIA This is War.
Each Night, you may target another player who received the most votes during the previous Day phase among living players to kill that player. If you do, you require two fewer votes to eliminate for the rest of the game. (If you ever require zero or fewer votes to eliminate, you will be eliminated at the earliest available opportunity during a Day phase.)
In addition, you share a chat and associated factional kill with your fellow Mafia team members here.
You win when no threats to mafia remain or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are MAFIA This is War.
Each Night, you may target another player who received the most votes during the previous Day phase among living players to kill that player. If you do, you require two fewer votes to eliminate for the rest of the game. (If you ever require zero or fewer votes to eliminate, you will be eliminated at the earliest available opportunity during a Day phase.)
In addition, you share a chat and associated factional kill with your fellow Mafia team members here.
You win when no threats to mafia remain or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Madge
Welcome to the game!
You are MAFIA Integral.
Each Night, you may target two other players. If the targets share an alignment, you learn their role types. If they have different alignments, they learn your role type.
In addition, you share a chat and associated factional kill with your fellow Mafia team members here.
You win when no threats to mafia remain or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are MAFIA Integral.
Each Night, you may target two other players. If the targets share an alignment, you learn their role types. If they have different alignments, they learn your role type.
In addition, you share a chat and associated factional kill with your fellow Mafia team members here.
You win when no threats to mafia remain or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
%%%
Marklin
Welcome to the game!
You are MAFIA Death and All His Friends.
Each Night, you may target a unique dead player. You gain a chat with them during the following Day phase. If they correctly guess your alignment, you may use their abilities during the following Night.
In addition, you share a chat and associated factional kill with your fellow Mafia team members here.
You win when no threats to mafia remain or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
You are MAFIA Death and All His Friends.
Each Night, you may target a unique dead player. You gain a chat with them during the following Day phase. If they correctly guess your alignment, you may use their abilities during the following Night.
In addition, you share a chat and associated factional kill with your fellow Mafia team members here.
You win when no threats to mafia remain or nothing can prevent this from occurring.
Confirm reading and understanding this message by explaining this role here in this PM.
Post-Game Comments
I appreciate that players kept the game polite/civil (outside of 1-2 small instances).
Not my best design. The town just had way too much information available to them. I think the mafia had a surprisingly good chance if the modkill hadn't occurred but I was in a pretty much impossible position.
Madge did a phenomenal job despite all the odds being stacked against her. Huge props there. I'd be extremely happy to have her on any scumteam ever.
I think Town MVP would be between Wam, Seven, and moody?
Many thanks to everyone for playing.
Many thanks to grapefruit for reviewing.
Many thanks to somitomi for being a very solid cohost (and taking over smoothly in Day 3 when I just couldn't be around).
I hope everyone has a happy holidays and I look forward to seeing you all around!
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Madge would have wiped the floor with us if it weren't for the early elims on partners & mechanical cornering. Once again, brilliant play.
Seven (she, him, their)
aka Zen, Xivii, Hari Seldon, Ro Laren, Spirit, Khepri
aka Zen, Xivii, Hari Seldon, Ro Laren, Spirit, Khepri
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Gg everyone!
Well played madge. Sorry that our newfound neighbour/lover relationship didn't work out quite like expected.
Using your role to present intense paranoia at the people who you were also pocketing was a clever nightplay plan.
Thanks to the ramenchef gang for being patient while us off-siters got acclimatised. I had an absolute blast, would happily play with y'all again.
Thanks Osie for hosting.
we stan goddess kween seven
Well played madge. Sorry that our newfound neighbour/lover relationship didn't work out quite like expected.
Using your role to present intense paranoia at the people who you were also pocketing was a clever nightplay plan.Thanks to the ramenchef gang for being patient while us off-siters got acclimatised. I had an absolute blast, would happily play with y'all again.
Thanks Osie for hosting.
we stan goddess kween seven
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
yeah thoroughly agreed, my spider sense was NOT equipped to handle Madge's play and I absolutely would have botched this if not for the snowball
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Sorry again.
At least Sabrar and Marklin were good scumreads
I had a sus on Madge then lost it then when trying to explain Ducky town I accidentally locked Madge as a townread.
And apologies to Seven for scumreading you so hard.
I am surprised you didnβt go down for claiming scum at the tail end of that one day.
At least Sabrar and Marklin were good scumreads
I had a sus on Madge then lost it then when trying to explain Ducky town I accidentally locked Madge as a townread.
And apologies to Seven for scumreading you so hard.
I am surprised you didnβt go down for claiming scum at the tail end of that one day.
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Yeah, you can see from the mafia/gojoe chats that I get progressively more disillusioned as I realise how many investigative roles there were available. When TW got the guilty on MB I regretted killing him, but I knew I had to kill every night or I was screwed. I contemplated getting a guilty on WMU today but when I ran the scenarios I knew I'd need an extra night.
I think given where I ended up mafia was underpowered, an indie would have really helped me as there would have been discord to sow.
The thing I'm most annoyed by is that the neighbour/lover prize was something that was only useful for town (at least my power let me sniff out indies and rolecop to target the NK). I think if I'd defected on the prisoner's dilemma I'd have had a much better chance at winning.
Sorry for killing you bessie, a big part of it was because I knew it would take heat off me a little as people would wonder why I'd ever do that to you
.
I had so much fun reacting to things, particularly reacting "live" with TW and then being "calmer" when I posted. I was CONSTANTLY shocked that TW never used their power on me.
I am a little annoyed that the new playstyle I'm working on will now be a scumtell for me (I think pocketing dead townies is going to be awesome for me tbh), and even more annoyed that Bessie has more ammo for her "madge is a genius scum player and we should be terrified" paranoia, lol <3
I think given where I ended up mafia was underpowered, an indie would have really helped me as there would have been discord to sow.
The thing I'm most annoyed by is that the neighbour/lover prize was something that was only useful for town (at least my power let me sniff out indies and rolecop to target the NK). I think if I'd defected on the prisoner's dilemma I'd have had a much better chance at winning.
Sorry for killing you bessie, a big part of it was because I knew it would take heat off me a little as people would wonder why I'd ever do that to you
.I had so much fun reacting to things, particularly reacting "live" with TW and then being "calmer" when I posted. I was CONSTANTLY shocked that TW never used their power on me.
I am a little annoyed that the new playstyle I'm working on will now be a scumtell for me (I think pocketing dead townies is going to be awesome for me tbh), and even more annoyed that Bessie has more ammo for her "madge is a genius scum player and we should be terrified" paranoia, lol <3
madge, ratammer's ponywife, she/her
Plug: my vampire romance novel is finished!
Plug: my vampire romance novel is finished!
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
From bessie in the spec chat:
----
also, people should check out my logic behind telling marklin to do the second claim. I think if he'd pulled it off how I was envisioning he might have been able to live to the night and get us the two NKs I was chasing. Thoughts?
IT WAS SUNDAY MORNING, I WAS AT A CHRISTMAS CARNIVAL WITH MY PARTNER AND HIS KIDS THAT WHOLE DAY T_T. You also said that I should post because "I love posting at work" but IT WAS SUNDAY, BESSIEShe shouldnβt have any excuses for not sharing itβs morning in her time zone.
----
also, people should check out my logic behind telling marklin to do the second claim. I think if he'd pulled it off how I was envisioning he might have been able to live to the night and get us the two NKs I was chasing. Thoughts?
madge, ratammer's ponywife, she/her
Plug: my vampire romance novel is finished!
Plug: my vampire romance novel is finished!
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
I would have to know the claim. I go 50/50. I come up with some crazy gambits and know how to buy a day or two. He probably would have been better with a UB claim rather than target the dead. Then could have gotten Sabrarβs power and lurky ness makes more sense
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Congratulations to town and I hope everyone had fun. And thanks Osie for running the game (and letting me try the host experience).
That neighbour chat was amazing to watch, you were great.
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Day 2
Looking at the scum chat I don't think Marklin should have been modkilled. There are three reasons for this
1) It was clear he did not intentionally mean to break the rules.
2) Marklin had posted the fake role PM in scum chat and was in discussion with the host that implied he was structuring a PM for that purpose; however, the host did not notify him that it would be a rule violation.
3) I think the posted rules favored a warning over a modkill because:
βββββββββββββββββa) the violation was not intentional
βββββββββββββββββb) the claim did not alter the direction of the game (Marlkin was still the vig elimination)
Therefore, I would not consider it to have been egregious (per the rules below). Or rather that for game sanctity, a merciful interpretation was justified:
----
----
The game had some neat roles, and really liked the overall theme (songs/greek gods). Osie, you mentioned that my role was less than popular, but I thought it was neat, and the kind of weak type of investigative I favor in a game. I think someone playing more strategically could have used it well.
I do think the setup had several ways it could be gamed/broken though. Despite the assertion that a massclaim would be disadvantageous, I think a Day 1 massclaim + directing roles would have put scum in a tight spot. For example, Day 1 town could have done something like:
Surprisingly, I found both the min and max post count to be very productive. I think perhaps the only thing I'd adjust in a future game is increasing the max post count for every player eliminated from the game. As the game got more involved, it was difficult for me not to pass the max count. This was especially the case when someone was asking me questions. So I think maybe there should be some leeway for responses of some sort. Also a third host would be useful to keep the post count tallies updated. It was hard to keep track at times.
Overall though, interesting and fun game. Osie is always bringing people from different communities together, I love it. Also thank you somi for the timely and prudent vote counts!
@the worst, I've never met someone with such an ill-fitting name. Sorry for tunneling you all game
@mathblade, please work on your aggression. Specifically, I don't think cursing is necessary.
@morgan, I saw that you didn't want to join spec chat, I hope that doesn't mean you won't play again!
@bessie, you have been on absolute fire lately. From your past several games, you've jumped to an S-tier player in my mind (e.g. with the people we think of as "the greats" like SDK and Boomfrog)
@Laser, of course you picked out Madge Day 1
@Wisp/bessie/Triss thanks for an entertaining spec chat! It's rare to have an interesting spec chat to read post-game.
1) It was clear he did not intentionally mean to break the rules.
2) Marklin had posted the fake role PM in scum chat and was in discussion with the host that implied he was structuring a PM for that purpose; however, the host did not notify him that it would be a rule violation.
3) I think the posted rules favored a warning over a modkill because:
βββββββββββββββββa) the violation was not intentional
βββββββββββββββββb) the claim did not alter the direction of the game (Marlkin was still the vig elimination)
Therefore, I would not consider it to have been egregious (per the rules below). Or rather that for game sanctity, a merciful interpretation was justified:
That being said, I think the modkill was handled well, specifically in that it was treated as the day's elimination.OGI/Angleshooting - Players will usually receive one friendly warning for OGI/Angleshooting. If it's more mild and/or clearly unknowing/unintentional, they may receive an additional warning before further moderation is considered. If it's more egregious, or they've already been warned, they will be considered for replacement or modkill. Intentional OGI/Angleshooting is cheating and will be quashed with great prejudice.
----
For the record, this is not what I meant. It's not the length of the rules, rather the content of some of them and your interpretation of them. Specifically, I don't think it is the mod's prerogative to enforce the idea that self-voting is gamethrowing unless it is done specifically with the intention of making your faction lose. We have seen several times now since we discussed this where self-voting would have been advantageous. Additionally, I don't agree with your perspective on some things that should/shouldn't be prohibited from being discussed in the thread: including reasons for being absent, potential rule violations, and clarifications from the host.
----
The game had some neat roles, and really liked the overall theme (songs/greek gods). Osie, you mentioned that my role was less than popular, but I thought it was neat, and the kind of weak type of investigative I favor in a game. I think someone playing more strategically could have used it well.
I do think the setup had several ways it could be gamed/broken though. Despite the assertion that a massclaim would be disadvantageous, I think a Day 1 massclaim + directing roles would have put scum in a tight spot. For example, Day 1 town could have done something like:
- Eliminate Jedi (or Morg)
- Have the worst be the runnerup
- Wake protects the worst (since his ability is non-targeting, it would not be disruptive)
- Have Sabrar shoot the worst (it would be stopped by Wake with no consequence per above, and it would prevent her from RBing tw)
- Wisp protects bessie
- Bessie watches Wisp and Wake and guesses half the playerlist.
- Wam uses Mode 1 and 3 on Moody.
- Moody neighborizes Madge and Morgan (with mode 1 applied, this makes him a role similar to Madges)
- Madge Checks Zen and Wam
- Zen Tracks Math to everyone but Morgan (or Jedi if Morg was elimmed instead)
- Math Roleblocks Morgan
- Morgan gives a gun to Wisp or Wake (and is included in bessie's check)
- Marklin gets Jedi to guess his alignment
- Jedi (if town) communicates what he guessed to moody the following day.
- The worst verifies that each person is telling the truth about their role.
Surprisingly, I found both the min and max post count to be very productive. I think perhaps the only thing I'd adjust in a future game is increasing the max post count for every player eliminated from the game. As the game got more involved, it was difficult for me not to pass the max count. This was especially the case when someone was asking me questions. So I think maybe there should be some leeway for responses of some sort. Also a third host would be useful to keep the post count tallies updated. It was hard to keep track at times.
Overall though, interesting and fun game. Osie is always bringing people from different communities together, I love it. Also thank you somi for the timely and prudent vote counts!
@the worst, I've never met someone with such an ill-fitting name. Sorry for tunneling you all game
@mathblade, please work on your aggression. Specifically, I don't think cursing is necessary.
@morgan, I saw that you didn't want to join spec chat, I hope that doesn't mean you won't play again!
@bessie, you have been on absolute fire lately. From your past several games, you've jumped to an S-tier player in my mind (e.g. with the people we think of as "the greats" like SDK and Boomfrog)
@Laser, of course you picked out Madge Day 1
@Wisp/bessie/Triss thanks for an entertaining spec chat! It's rare to have an interesting spec chat to read post-game.
Seven (she, him, their)
aka Zen, Xivii, Hari Seldon, Ro Laren, Spirit, Khepri
aka Zen, Xivii, Hari Seldon, Ro Laren, Spirit, Khepri
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
I think that without the modkill, mafia would have been okay, but the modkill messed things up. You needed that extra kill.madge wrote: βMon Dec 13, 2021 10:43 pm Yeah, you can see from the mafia/gojoe chats that I get progressively more disillusioned as I realise how many investigative roles there were available. When TW got the guilty on MB I regretted killing him, but I knew I had to kill every night or I was screwed. I contemplated getting a guilty on WMU today but when I ran the scenarios I knew I'd need an extra night.
I think given where I ended up mafia was underpowered, an indie would have really helped me as there would have been discord to sow.
The thing I'm most annoyed by is that the neighbour/lover prize was something that was only useful for town (at least my power let me sniff out indies and rolecop to target the NK). I think if I'd defected on the prisoner's dilemma I'd have had a much better chance at winning.
Sorry for killing you bessie, a big part of it was because I knew it would take heat off me a little as people would wonder why I'd ever do that to you
I had so much fun reacting to things, particularly reacting "live" with TW and then being "calmer" when I posted. I was CONSTANTLY shocked that TW never used their power on me.
I am a little annoyed that the new playstyle I'm working on will now be a scumtell for me (I think pocketing dead townies is going to be awesome for me tbh), and even more annoyed that Bessie has more ammo for her "madge is a genius scum player and we should be terrified" paranoia, lol <3
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Day 2
A lot to unpack here...
1) I know Marklin from sites that generally are higher experience. My impression going into the consideration was that they would have the experience to not do this. Not enough to modkill in and of itself.
2) "Don't post a role PM in the thread" is a very core rule of pretty much every game I've seen. Providing notification is not something that usually needs to happen; I don't think it's really fair to fault me on that one, but I may try to keep an eye on it going forward.
3) The decision was a choice between two evils:
a. Warn Marklin, don't modkill - In this case, the lack of a modkill host-confirms to the thread that Marklin did not post their role PM even though the text ws formatted as one. Especially given that it is normal for "pretending to post your role PM is considered breaking the rule of don't post your role PM", host-confirming that they're lying is essentially a modkill in the form of pushing them closer to an elimination.
b. Modkill Marklin - Modkills never feel good. I don't enjoy modkilling people, despite what some may think. Given that he didn't understand the context of the problem until explained clearly, it felt particularly bad. That said, Marklin was gracious about it and quickly understood what the problem was with posting their role PM.
As for OGI/Angleshooting rules, some of which are taken from MU, and others which are taken from MtGS, either my own experience or that of other people:
1. Reasons for being absent - I am generally very lenient on this. That said, IRL circumstances leaking into the game can cause problems. One past example is a game in which there was open discussion of Wisp being away from the thread due to a family emergency, information which definitely coloured people's read on Wisp. It's not anyone's business and it detracts from game sanctity. There was another game in which someone posted a picture of themself playing with their kid as an excuse for not being in the thread. They were warned for that. Should everyone be pressured into providing reasons, no matter how personal? No, I don't think so, that host didn't think so, and I kinda doubt you think so either.
2. Potential Rule Violations - Again, there are parts of this on which I'm lenient, but I feel very strongly that the game should not turn into "You should be modkilled" or "I'm going to report you". The reason why discussion of rules violations is an issue is that often that rules violation can cause a breach in game sanctity, and further discussion surrounding that can aggravate said breach or cause further breaches itself.
3. Clarifications from the host - Huh? What are you talking about? The closest thing I can think of is claiming that the host made a mistake when they did not. Not sure exactly to what you're referring here.
There's three factors that give a bit of additional context, in increasing levels of importance.Seven wrote: βTue Dec 14, 2021 3:24 am Looking at the scum chat I don't think Marklin should have been modkilled. There are three reasons for this
1) It was clear he did not intentionally mean to break the rules.
2) Marklin had posted the fake role PM in scum chat and was in discussion with the host that implied he was structuring a PM for that purpose; however, the host did not notify him that it would be a rule violation.
3) I think the posted rules favored a warning over a modkill because:
βββββββββββββββββa) the violation was not intentional
βββββββββββββββββb) the claim did not alter the direction of the game (Marlkin was still the vig elimination)
Therefore, I would not consider it to have been egregious (per the rules below). Or rather that for game sanctity, a merciful interpretation was justified:That being said, I think the modkill was handled well, specifically in that it was treated as the day's elimination.OGI/Angleshooting - Players will usually receive one friendly warning for OGI/Angleshooting. If it's more mild and/or clearly unknowing/unintentional, they may receive an additional warning before further moderation is considered. If it's more egregious, or they've already been warned, they will be considered for replacement or modkill. Intentional OGI/Angleshooting is cheating and will be quashed with great prejudice.
1) I know Marklin from sites that generally are higher experience. My impression going into the consideration was that they would have the experience to not do this. Not enough to modkill in and of itself.
2) "Don't post a role PM in the thread" is a very core rule of pretty much every game I've seen. Providing notification is not something that usually needs to happen; I don't think it's really fair to fault me on that one, but I may try to keep an eye on it going forward.
3) The decision was a choice between two evils:
a. Warn Marklin, don't modkill - In this case, the lack of a modkill host-confirms to the thread that Marklin did not post their role PM even though the text ws formatted as one. Especially given that it is normal for "pretending to post your role PM is considered breaking the rule of don't post your role PM", host-confirming that they're lying is essentially a modkill in the form of pushing them closer to an elimination.
b. Modkill Marklin - Modkills never feel good. I don't enjoy modkilling people, despite what some may think. Given that he didn't understand the context of the problem until explained clearly, it felt particularly bad. That said, Marklin was gracious about it and quickly understood what the problem was with posting their role PM.
I'll agree to disagree on the self-voting. I think it's a grey area at best in enforcement and in my experience, removing it altogether has usually been a very small loss for a slightly less small gain.Seven wrote: βTue Dec 14, 2021 3:24 amFor the record, this is not what I meant. It's not the length of the rules, rather the content of some of them and your interpretation of them. Specifically, I don't think it is the mod's prerogative to enforce the idea that self-voting is gamethrowing unless it is done specifically with the intention of making your faction lose. We have seen several times now since we discussed this where self-voting would have been advantageous. Additionally, I don't agree with your perspective on some things that should/shouldn't be prohibited from being discussed in the thread: including reasons for being absent, potential rule violations, and clarifications from the host.
As for OGI/Angleshooting rules, some of which are taken from MU, and others which are taken from MtGS, either my own experience or that of other people:
1. Reasons for being absent - I am generally very lenient on this. That said, IRL circumstances leaking into the game can cause problems. One past example is a game in which there was open discussion of Wisp being away from the thread due to a family emergency, information which definitely coloured people's read on Wisp. It's not anyone's business and it detracts from game sanctity. There was another game in which someone posted a picture of themself playing with their kid as an excuse for not being in the thread. They were warned for that. Should everyone be pressured into providing reasons, no matter how personal? No, I don't think so, that host didn't think so, and I kinda doubt you think so either.
2. Potential Rule Violations - Again, there are parts of this on which I'm lenient, but I feel very strongly that the game should not turn into "You should be modkilled" or "I'm going to report you". The reason why discussion of rules violations is an issue is that often that rules violation can cause a breach in game sanctity, and further discussion surrounding that can aggravate said breach or cause further breaches itself.
3. Clarifications from the host - Huh? What are you talking about? The closest thing I can think of is claiming that the host made a mistake when they did not. Not sure exactly to what you're referring here.
I like the idea but I think it was too much bookkeeping for the host and I know Vaimes (Morgan) and yourself both expressed some concerns.Seven wrote: βTue Dec 14, 2021 3:24 amThe game had some neat roles, and really liked the overall theme (songs/greek gods). Osie, you mentioned that my role was less than popular, but I thought it was neat, and the kind of weak type of investigative I favor in a game. I think someone playing more strategically could have used it well.
You got me, the setup was not hugely pre-balanced before review outside of a rough idea that the high investigative power might be balanced out with high kill power, and I didn't put any anti-claim in this setup besides the statement that a massclaim may be disadvantageous and offering scum fake claims if they wanted them.
Day 1 massclaim rarely works out the way you want it to work out since scum then know exactly what town is trying to do.Seven wrote: βTue Dec 14, 2021 3:24 amFor example, Day 1 town could have done something like:
- Eliminate Jedi (or Morg)
- Have the worst be the runnerup
- Wake protects the worst (since his ability is non-targeting, it would not be disruptive)
- Have Sabrar shoot the worst (it would be stopped by Wake with no consequence per above, and it would prevent her from RBing tw)
- Wisp protects bessie
- Bessie watches Wisp and Wake and guesses half the playerlist.
- Wam uses Mode 1 and 3 on Moody.
- Moody neighborizes Madge and Morgan (with mode 1 applied, this makes him a role similar to Madges)
- Madge Checks Zen and Wam
- Zen Tracks Math to everyone but Morgan (or Jedi if Morg was elimmed instead)
- Math Roleblocks Morgan
- Morgan gives a gun to Wisp or Wake (and is included in bessie's check)
- Marklin gets Jedi to guess his alignment
- Jedi (if town) communicates what he guessed to moody the following day.
- The worst verifies that each person is telling the truth about their role.
Yeah, I liked it too, but definitely might raise it a bit. Keeping track of it was more painful here than it might be elsewhere given lack of certain features, but workable. I don't know that I'd have grabbed a third host, but maybe just made sure I was personally more free and given more explicit direction to somi. <3 somi.Seven wrote: βTue Dec 14, 2021 3:24 amSurprisingly, I found both the min and max post count to be very productive. I think perhaps the only thing I'd adjust in a future game is increasing the max post count for every player eliminated from the game. As the game got more involved, it was difficult for me not to pass the max count. This was especially the case when someone was asking me questions. So I think maybe there should be some leeway for responses of some sort. Also a third host would be useful to keep the post count tallies updated. It was hard to keep track at times.
More work than designing setups, and feels like more and more of a tedious and uphill battle on a daily basis, lol.
"the best" ducky. <3
I think he is retired.
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Oh yeah, and @Seven - I liked your comment about the imaginary friend thing. I do like that role.
Re: Songs of Our Times Mafia Game Thread - Game Over
Enjoyed watching this from secret chat, everyone! Apologies to Jedi for not being particularly useful...